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Elise human Q losing % current health damage on PBE. Too much of a potential nerf?

Profirix·Aug 7, 2015·14 votes·2,054 views

I will first start by saying that all PBE changes are tentative.

Now that that is out of the way, Elise has seen a huge increase in performance and pick rate since the buff two patches ago. There are now some changes on the PBE that completely rework Neurotoxin and get rid of the anti-tank mechanic associated with the ability. It is being replaced by a DoT that does 3 ticks of 20/30/40/50/60 (+0.15) magic damage each second (duration doubled against monsters).

Does anyone think this might hurt her ability to deal with tanks? I know she has become a lethal assassin, especially with the runeglaive changes. Does this mean though that her Q needs to be completely changed?

I would like to see your thoughts on this. If any Rioters see this, I would like some context on these changes.

EDIT: I realize that the current iteration shows a cooldown of 1 for all ranks. Not sure if this is a false value or actual. That would change my opinion a bit.

EDIT: A lot of us agree that a mana cost reduction would benefit her if this change is implemented.

31 Comments

TrebbiAug 7, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Does anyone think this might hurt her ability to deal with tanks?

The next patch will help with that. There will be no tanks for her to melt.

WheatloafAug 7, 20152 votes

Nerfs to armor don't directly affect Elise much, but theoretically the ADC will just take care of the tank for her. Teamwork~

Spizzle9000Aug 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The next patch will help with that. There will be no tanks for her to melt.

Yup. And I say praise the lawd.

Big LincolnAug 7, 20157 votes

I think it's a good change. A lot of power was put into Spiderlings, which along with Runeglaive made her a really scary assassin for squishy targets.

I don't think she needs to excel vs tanks anymore, since she already has amazing pick potential and sustained damage. I think it could afford to lower some of the mana cost; 80 mana for 60 damage at rank 1 is a little high, but it's doubled against monsters (which might be them trying to coerce Elise players out of lanes and back into the jungle)

ProfirixAug 7, 20152 votes

Yes, a mana cost reduction would be a great change if this goes through.

Penguin EclipseAug 7, 20156 votes

DoT actually makes more sense being a spider and all. But this could really hurt those that still play Elise on the tanky side. I'm personally not a big fan of this change.

ModAcademy KaynAug 7, 20155 votes

Dat 1 second cooldown though. I shudder in fear.

ProfirixAug 7, 20152 votes

I don't think that is actual. I think that is missing data.

LuggAug 7, 20153 votes

I think it's pretty obvious they overbuffed her, so a nerf is in order. She is wreaking on the Rift right now.

ProfirixAug 7, 20151 votes

A nerf is cutting values or raising costs, not completely reworking a core skill.

LuggAug 7, 20154 votes

A rework can be a nerf or a buff as well.

weevilAug 7, 20153 votes

As an Elise main I LOVE this change based on thematic alone. Not to mention, one second cooldown? I'm all for this.

It could stand to have its mana cost reduced though. 80 is... a bit steep, I think.

Oerba No NajaAug 7, 20151 votes

you cant stack it do u realie ? :')

AbyssphereAug 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Freeza ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6AkEJO5,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-08-07T11:14:13.416+0000)

you cant stack it do u realie ? :')

You can still re-apply it permanently though, and quickly apply it to multiple targets. She has a ranged perma-slow for one thing.

Leu07Aug 7, 20153 votes

I'm wondering if her new Q venom interacts with Cassiopeia's E? Singed + Elise + + Twitch :')

DracidAug 7, 20152 votes

start with nerfing her sustain. Its god tier right now. You can do a full clear without pots and still be reasonably healthy. Come back and see where she is at after that

ArbiterOfTruthAug 7, 20152 votes

I'm not sure what to think of this change. Thematically, it makes sense although I would still like to see a cc added to it since a neurotoxin is supposed to be debilitating. Damage wise 180 (+0.45 AP) at max rank seems underwhelming; not to mention that if you spam it you're going to end up going oom. It seems to only be efficient when used on jungle monsters, dealing 360 (+0.9 AP) at max rank. Not sure what to think about it until I have the chance to test it.

CalabokAug 7, 20151 votes

she's a spider, she should only be killing bugs like Skarner and that other jungle bug

LuggAug 7, 20153 votes

Here is a spider killing a bird. Spiders will eat anything they are big enough to handle. Elise is pretty big.

Celeste BenalAug 7, 20152 votes

Banana spider? Saw lots of those in Thailand.

EvewynnAug 7, 20151 votes

I am afraid to how this new Q will do.

If it is weak, it is a huge nerf to her burst against ALL targets, even squishy ones, unless she builds 800 or so AP. She will do little damage while tacking on a huge mana problem since they are not reducing the cost of the ability. This also greatly impacts her tankier builds meaning there is much more risk for less reward.

If it is strong, this will be incredibly toxic (heh) in lane as she is able to provide constant pressure without being gated by the fact that she deals less damage when her opponent has less health. She will hurt just as much no matter how close you are to death. Build a tear and you are essentially casting a Cass E without needing to land a skillshot first, ergo little counterplay. Not to mention if this ability works with Muramana it will be totally broken.

I like the idea of a spider character having a DoT, and I also like the idea for lane elise to get buffs, but I don't want her to be broken or gutted in the process. I just hope riot does this right because elise is the closest champ to a main that I have.

CatAndBookTailsAug 7, 20152 votes

You mean whe will have to build actual ap now to burst my carries? well that's delightful news!

Celeste BenalAug 7, 20152 votes

284 magic damage over 3 seconds with max-ranked Q, Runeglaive, Rylais, and Liandry's. Also, likely 40 pts of flat magic pen (includes runes and masteries)... does not include the DoT from Liandry's, or the Spellblade proc from Runeglaive.

Moving Q to a DoT also indirectly nerfs the Liandry's DoT because DoTs only proc Rylai's for 1 second instead of 1.5.

With such a short CD on Q, Elise will be able to proc Runeglaive's Spellblade passive constantly, so long as she doesn't mind the mana expenditure.

Hard4HamstersAug 8, 20151 votes

It's actually a buff to Liandry's DoT. Think about it this way. Liandry's ticks for 3 seconds after the last tick of damage from an ability. Making an ability DoT effectively refreshes the Liandry's passive over and over again until the 3 seconds of the Q are over. I'm pretty sure the same thing works with Rylai's as the slow refreshes with each tick until the damage expires and then it will still slow for 1 second after the last tick of the Q. So this is a buff to the damage from her items, but it is a nerf to her burst and damage overall (now that Q CD is at 6 seconds again, which honestly makes a lot more sense).

Hard4HamstersAug 7, 20151 votes

I really don't know what to think about it but I like it thematically, DOT Neurotoxin makes sense. The problem is probably going to be the mana cost 80 per cast is pretty high for any spammable spell with low base and scaling. Elise is incredibly strong right now though, so we'll see what happens.

Hard4HamstersAug 7, 20151 votes

Edit: I just noticed that the DOT is 20 per second at level 1, it might be okay as is, even if it has a high mana cost. 60 + .45 AP isn't that bad early, and 180 + .45AP is still pretty good at max rank; this is even doubled against monsters so she will still have very strong clears. I think this is going to make the Rylai's/Liandry's combo even stronger on her as the Liandry's will be stronger with the DOT. With Runeglaive, I think she will have plenty of mana sustain in the jungle and she will likely only be using Q liberally in the constraints of a teamfight setting. This might hurt her tankier builds as you will be missing out on more %HP damage to duel tanks, and you will more likely be looking to assassinate squishies.

SeekêrAug 7, 20151 votes

I think it is a good change for lane elise although the mana cost is punishing.

It also gives you a viable way to get all your spiderlings late game instead of waiting for cds.

I think she needs a mechanic to get mana back if they intend to keep the mana cost so high. It doesnt do nearly enough to justify that cost, even if you spamm it the dot doesnt roll over so you are just wasting mana.

CatSithAug 7, 20151 votes

I love these changes but it seems to be a bit weak, hoping there are more to come. They should increase the Range and reduce the mana cost.

:3

TourianAug 7, 20151 votes

That's exactly what I suggested. Or have those scale with R rank. Or if they keep those the same at least add a hefty slow or something. If you Spider R while the dot's still active the target is rooted or slowed?

Meep ManAug 7, 20151 votes

If the mana cost was reduced a bit as well, it would be cool. Anyways, 180 (+45% AP) constantly being applied is pretty powerful. Not a buff, but its powerful.

Celeste BenalAug 7, 20151 votes

The change will greatly increase her early jungle camp damage. But it will be a nerf to ganking and team fights. Basically, it will encourage her to stay in the jungle and out farm the enemy team in the hopes of getting to her AP items first.

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