Boards›Gameplay

Tahm Kench Changes: A little concerning.

Profirix··64 votes·33,695 views

[NOTE: Riot Repertoir noted these will likely be pulled soon and W changes return in 8.16] Devour (W) : Cooldown increased from 14/13/12/11/10 to 26/23/20/17/14 Regurgitate AP ratio lowered from [2% per 100 AP] to [1% per 100 AP] Regurgitate magic damage increased from [20/23/26/29/32% of target's max health] to [31/32/33/34/35% of target's max health]

Please tell me you are just rebalancing his kit and applying power elsewhere because this champion is barely functional as is. I had to give him up as a support because his impact in low/mid elo games is just too poor. He needs to be buffed.

DISCLAIMER: I know that this is purely experimental and on the test server, but seeing potential nerfs of this caliber are unsettling for someone who loves playing the champion and wants to be able to main him again as a support. With a cooldown that high, I cant pull off some of the cool regurgitate poke damage without being useless for the next 26 seconds.

EDIT: Maple Nectar released these potential changes further down in this post:

Tongue Lash (Q) Slow Duration :: 2 >>> 1.5 Cooldown :: 6 >>> 5

Devour / Regurgitate (W) Damage :: 20/23/26/29/32% (+2% per 100AP) >>> 27/29/31/33/35% (+1% per 100AP) Cooldown :: 14/13/12/11/10 >>> 28/25/22/19/16 Cost :: 90 >>> 60 NEW :: Triggers half its normal cooldown on enemy cast

It makes me a little bit happier to see the offensive use of the devour spell not get punished as much. Similarly, the mana cost buff is a blessing considering that 90 mana with Tahm's small mana pool is a nice change.

FINAL EDIT: And it looks like they did away with any form of buff in the 8.16 patch notes. The damage buff to W was removed. I'd argue that tongue lash changes aren't really a buff because of his small mana pool and poor mana regeneration but at this point I think I'm going to take a break from League. Riot has killed my desire to keep trying to improve.

201 Comments

z63XnLCMwX42 votes

Nani the fuck riot. 26 second cd on a non-ult skill? He already has problem sticking onto mobile champions. Why would you increase his W cd? That makes his solo laning unplayable.

TheCodeisCupCake8 votes

{quoted}

Nani the fuck riot. 26 second cd on a non-ult skill? He already has problem sticking onto mobile champions. Why would you increase his W cd? That makes his solo laning unplayable.

I mean, Yasuo's windwall has a 30 second cool down, Darius's apprehend has a 28 second cool down. Its not THAT uncommon. But seeing how Tahm's sole purpose is to eat people it may be, interesting to increase the cool down.

Draconian56525 votes

Here's the thing. Darius doesn't need his Apprehend to deal damage. It's not the core of his ability. Tahm only has 2 damage abilities - Q and W. It would be a better analogy if you said Tahm's E went on a 24 second cooldown instead.

If you nerfed Darius's Q or W by an additional 4 seconds, not even double the CD, they'd definitely feel it.

Again, Yasuo's W is not core to his kit. Tahm's entire point is to yoink people out or suppress an enemy.

They're both also abilities that the champions max last so they dont feel it. Tahm is an early-mid game champ with no late game beyond being a CC bot and he maxes W second. It hurts his mid game damage a lot. This nerf hurts, both in terms of damage, CD, and utility.

THE D1C3 votes

{quoted}

Nani the fuck riot. 26 second cd on a non-ult skill? He already has problem sticking onto mobile champions. Why would you increase his W cd? That makes his solo laning unplayable.

Quinn’s W is like 50 seconds rank 1. Doesn’t do damage :-/

FutureCreator3 votes

Except it has a powerful passive, which is the core of the ability. Having a No Cost, long range ward every 50 seconds isn't that bad imo.

TempName548461 votes

solo lane tahm should have never been a thing, getting chunked for a third of your hp every 10 seconds by a full tank top laner was one of the most aids things to ever happen, not that it will be any better after these """""nerfs""""".

Profirix1 votes

The reason support Kench is in so much trouble right now is because of how abusable he is in top lane. It frustrates me to no end. Unless they target nerf his top lane or completely rework his kit he will never be allowed to be a good support.

XxoRazorBladeoxX6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tongue in Cheek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LagLwtvo,comment-id=000000050000,timestamp=2018-07-25T17:39:59.304+0000)

The reason support Kench is in so much trouble right now is because of how abusable he is in top lane. It frustrates me to no end. Unless they target nerf his top lane or completely rework his kit he will never be allowed to be a good support.

He's not exactly abusable in toplane.This is not tank meta. In fact I dont think hes viable toplane anymore. Toplane kench is worse than support kench. You dont provide good peel for your allies or much cc if you play him like a fighter. Additionally, if you go against bruisers they usually outscale him and will be more useful in the lategame. In the lategame all you can do is just devour for your allies. Not only that, but hes a lot more squishier now from his nerfs, especially bruisers who go conqueror against him.

Toplane kench is not the reason they nerfed him. HE was nerfed as a toplaner a long time ago when he first was released and they changed him to be more viable as a support. Now they are just trying to nerf his support role.

Draconian5652 votes

^This.

Tahm Top cannot build full tank anymore agianst he's against a Klepto or Grasp user. Against Conqueror, your armor/MR is pointless beyond 120 armor since the enemy would do more damage than PTA once Conqueror is activated.

Bruisers will 100% outscale Tahm if they have Conqueror. E nerf made him 8-13% more squishier if my memory serves me correctly.

Conqueror singlehandely removed the notion of building full tank for the enemy laners, hence the shift to all bruisers. Why go tank when you then do no damage and you're not tanky.

Tahm is one thicc boy and he's even more kiteable than anyone else since he needs time to even land a hard CC on someone, which is why I lean towards MS items like DMP and RG if I dont need too much MR.

Top is nowhere near as abuseable if you just farm. Being a bruiser doesnt mean you can just bash buttons and hope to win a fight, only to whine that something's broken when you don't win. By that logic, you would also never fight a Darius either and Darius is also "broken as shit."

He's 48% win rate amongst a very select group of people who play it frequently. He's not a common pick and yet the people who play him often still sit on a 48% win rate. That's an incredibly low variance despite the low number of recorded games. That's how you know Tahm Top isn't broken.

TempName, 1/3 of your health. It's a 1/5 before magic resist. After magic resist, it's 15% for a 14s ability, which you max SECOND. It's also 90 mana when Tahm has a max of 1005 at Lv18. At Lv1-5, he would only get 1-2 Ws off before having to back.

I keep telling people, make it 8-10% with a 7-5 second CD, we Tahm mains would rejoice. The damage means nothing. It's the CC and ability to relocate the enemy team. By the time you're Lv13 and maxed out W, you shouldn't be winning versus Conqueror Bruisers unless you play perfectly. Please, don't be one of the people who are like "32% max health dmg" when you dont factor in math or skill order.

XxoRazorBladeoxX2 votes

{quoted}

^This.

Tahm Top cannot build full tank anymore agianst he's against a Klepto or Grasp user. Against Conqueror, your armor/MR is pointless beyond 120 armor since the enemy would do more damage than PTA once Conqueror is activated.

Bruisers will 100% outscale Tahm if they have Conqueror. E nerf made him 8-13% more squishier if my memory serves me correctly.

Conqueror singlehandely removed the notion of building full tank for the enemy laners, hence the shift to all bruisers. Why go tank when you then do no damage and you're not tanky.

Tahm is one thicc boy and he's even more kiteable than anyone else since he needs time to even land a hard CC on someone, which is why I lean towards MS items like DMP and RG if I dont need too much MR.

Top is nowhere near as abuseable if you just farm. Being a bruiser doesnt mean you can just bash buttons and hope to win a fight, only to whine that something's broken when you don't win. By that logic, you would also never fight a Darius either and Darius is also "broken as shit."

He's 48% win rate amongst a very select group of people who play it frequently. He's not a common pick and yet the people who play him often still sit on a 48% win rate. That's an incredibly low variance despite the low number of recorded games. That's how you know Tahm Top isn't broken.

TempName, 1/3 of your health. It's a 1/5 before magic resist. After magic resist, it's 15% for a 14s ability, which you max SECOND. It's also 90 mana when Tahm has a max of 1005 at Lv18. At Lv1-5, he would only get 1-2 Ws off before having to back.

I keep telling people, make it 8-10% with a 7-5 second CD, we Tahm mains would rejoice. The damage means nothing. It's the CC and ability to relocate the enemy team. By the time you're Lv13 and maxed out W, you shouldn't be winning versus Conqueror Bruisers unless you play perfectly. Please, don't be one of the people who are like "32% max health dmg" when you dont factor in math or skill order.

I dont even consider him a tank beast like he used to be viewed anymore. His "e" is nerfed a lot so the healing and shielding is not enough to make him feel tanky in the early levels. Compared to supports who provide heals and shields, they can give more sustain than tahm kench himself. Now "e" just feels like a wasted part of his kit. It's like a weaker version Locket of The Iron Solari and Redemption that's part of his kit. I rather save my mana now to cast "e" than to use it. Might as well have a support like janna or soraka give me bigger shields or healings than having a part of my kit wasted for small healings and a small shield. No point of having all that grey shield for healing when pyke can heal a lot more of the grey health and supports who can heal/shield me more.

Tahminatrix 25 votes

And to think I already get flamed by my teammates when I play tahm kench because my W would be on cooldown after saving someone else..

26 cd w...that's literally making tahm lose against tanks/engagers in the botlane, he will go from having a favorable matchup to one that he cant even play against...how am I supposed to save my adc from Morgana Alistar or Leona now.. those engages / spells have low cooldowns and the only one I can bodyblock will just lead to me taking tons of damage. (E sustain was nerfed already -.- )

Profirix13 votes

Especially since they have nerfed Thick Skin so heavily his sustain is abominable and he doesn't even get the full value of damage taken as a grey shield. It is actually a waste to allow my health to regenerate.

The champ does 2 things: saves allies from death by snatching them up (and getting put in the crossfire in the process) and walks up to apply stacks of acquired taste to be able to cc people (also putting himself in danger). The problem is that Riot has nerfed him so hard because he was just oppressive as a top laner, but they haven't buffed his support at all. He struggles very heavily in aggressive lanes and can no longer sustain himself in these match-ups. On top of that, relic shield has been nerfed so many times that it fails to be anything more than a "shoot me now" item.

Draconian56513 votes

I want E nerf reverted since this W nerf would actually weaken Tahm Support even more.

This is just a clear nerf to LCS matches ot prevent too many saves.

Profirix9 votes

His tankiness doesn't mean a damn thing if all he can do is Tongue Lash a single target couple of seconds and stand in the way. He can't get out of fights anymore and lacks the durability to stay in them.

Draconian5655 votes

That's also a problem. My worry is that people are going to take advantage of Tahm's long CD during fights. You have to play incredibly safe when ur W is down.

I play Kench Top so I'm worried about a Jax fighting me, I combo him and then we reset. Then he jumps on me again 12 seconds later and my W is still on a 10 second cd.

RakanButTHICCer2 votes

{quoted}

That's also a problem. My worry is that people are going to take advantage of Tahm's long CD during fights. You have to play incredibly safe when ur W is down.

I play Kench Top so I'm worried about a Jax fighting me, I combo him and then we reset. Then he jumps on me again 12 seconds later and my W is still on a 10 second cd.

my thoughts exactly.

NY6415 votes

So glad they are thinking about nerfing the cooldown on his W because who needs saving in a meta where everyone one shots eachother, great idea to nerf the champion that is the only counter to assassins that do so much damage that not even heal and shield supports can't save allies. They already did enough damage to him after removing the speed boost on his W, seriously it feels so horrible to use his W on allies after they took that away.

Blakiepug13 votes

Thank you for making this thread. As a Tahm Kench main, he has been weak for quite some time so when I just saw that he is getting nerfed soon I was disgusted. Why is Tahm getting nerfed again when he is already so weak? >:( Riot is making it really ******* hard to stay interested in their game.

Draconian5656 votes

Last I saw, he had a 46% win rate as a support and 48% as top lane after the E nerf. This is kind of sad.

Profirix5 votes

That is a 48 percent win rate with an extremely low pick rate, which means the only people playing him are dedicated Tahm players. 48% with experts at the champion is abysmal.

Nea1044 votes

They are destroying tanks more and more. The main issue of their game is the overall crazy damage, and they keep buffing damage and lowering defences.

Tham's W is a sort of defence, for allies. They already destroyed his tankiness. He is now pointless.

This company is collapsing.

DlXON1 votes

It's a proplay nerf.

Why is he so good in proplay? Voice coms

Blakiepug2 votes

{quoted}

It's a proplay nerf.

Why is he so good in proplay? Voice coms

This nerf will hurt him significantly outside of proplay too. They aren't even giving him proper compensation; it is ridiculous.

DlXON2 votes

I played ornn top when he had a 46% win rate over a couple patches then riot nerfed him to 44% win rate and feels so bad to lane now (all they had to do was nerf his ult). Oh well

Profirix2 votes

He won't even be played in pro play. Not when even he can be burst down before being able to save an ally.

Draconian56512 votes

It's an indirect nerf in terms of damage too. Initially, you get more, but you actually lose out 5-7% in the same amount of time after factoring in 25% default magic damage reduction on every champion. That's at Rank 1 btw.

31% - 23.25% after magic resist 20% x2 =40% - 30% after magic resist

A difference of 6.75% max health damage after magic resist calculation.

And that grows increasingly worse as the game goes on. At Rank 5 W, it's 44.8% (32% x 14/10) max health dmg to 35% max health damage pre-magic reduction calculation. So at Lv13, its 9.8 * 0.75 = roughly around 7-7.5% loss in magic damage.

Granted there aren't many situations where you'll be in a fight for 20 seconds to be able to use W, but it offers a different perspective on things.

Also, this is just a straight gut to Tahm Support. Please give back his E sustain in return since Tahm was nerfed for his sustain due to LCS. This is a clear target at LCS matches to prevent Tahm's W from saving too many people. I would love his E back now for solo-lane and jungle capabilities. This W nerf is good enough to kill Tahm Support.

<> <> <>

EDIT: Upon further thinking, I personally think, if you eat an ally, it should be 16-10 seconds CD. Enemy champions remain the same. But otherwise, 1/2 the CD for minions/monsters. Let me explain, this would allow Tahm players to play him Jungle and Top, but also make sure LCS players can't abuse Tahm's W willy-nilly. It also wouldn't change his pushing power by much because Tahm's mana pool is so small so he would only get 3 Ws off at Lv1. At Lv18, he would only get 9 Ws off on minion waves. It's nice in occasional situations when u just need to push the wave, either as a support or a top laner.

That or if the ally is CC'd, add another 3 seconds onto the current CD, preventing saves every time and extending the duration of the W. That way, Tahm is punished for only W-ing allies out of CC when it should've equaled their kill.

Hopefully Riot listens to this dumb frog player here like they did with last time: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9ajoHEPv-tahm-kench-changes-notice-me-meddler-senpai

Please Meddler Senpai.

Snugglesnacks12 votes

Let's see what else Riot is going sabotage in their own game. We're about 28 for 28 this season.

Profirix6 votes

I wouldn't go that far, but I guess I am just looking for context on how this change could possibly be anything other than "we want Tahm out of the game." His most important skill is getting nerfed by at least 4 seconds at level 5 and is ultimately taking a damage nerf too. The champ is not doing well in terms of viability except at ultra-high pro play and even then his win rate isn't great. He does one or two core things with very little else to show off your skill as a player.

I am also looking at this from the context of being a super-early PBE change that is maybe just pushing his limits to see how far until they can break him giving me hope that maybe, just maybe they have buffs in store.

Draconian5654 votes

Yo Tongue, how would you feel about a longer CD for saving targets but half the CD for eating enemies and minions, encouraging more aggressive playstyles?

Baron Barian11 votes

It definitely does feel like they need to put power somewhere else if they're adding so much cooldown time on his most important ability. He'll always be my go-to support, but if he can't rely on that as often anymore he's going to need something else.

Maybe a stronger q, an R buff, the extra damage added onto the devour is not worth the cooldown, even if you're going top with him.

RiotRiot MapleNectar10 votes

This was just a part of the list in testing. The full list is below - but note that since we're targeting 8.16 this could still change a lot!

Tongue Lash (Q) Slow Duration :: 2 >>> 1.5 Cooldown :: 6 >>> 5

Devour / Regurgitate (W) Damage :: 20/23/26/29/32% (+2% per 100AP) >>> 27/29/31/33/35% (+1% per 100AP) Cooldown :: 14/13/12/11/10 >>> 28/25/22/19/16 Cost :: 90 >>> 60 NEW :: Triggers half its normal cooldown on enemy cast

The Yetii Rider2 votes

If you want to cut the ability's power for pro play, why not just remove the suppression effect altogether and have it be an ally-only protection spell?

RiotRiot MapleNectar8 votes

I think doing so would make him significantly less deep as a champion if he couldn't use his W on enemies, as well as makes it so TK would have a hard time functioning in any other role. If I understand your question correctly that is

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Is that really a problem if he was too "deep" to begin with?

First of all, suppression on a basic ability is absolutely nuts. Suppression in general is nuts, I don't know why it's still in the game, but at least for every champion other than Tahm Kench and Skarner the suppression effect requires a channel and roots the caster for the duration. With Skarner he has limited options as well, but for Tahm the only punishment is that he is significantly slowed for the duration, which usually won't even matter because he's in the middle of a 1v1 or 2v2 that just turned into a 1v0 or a 2v1.

Increasing the cooldown to almost 30 seconds for a basic ability forces you to max it first. Won't that just mean there is LESS interaction between Tahm Kench and his laners as his Q is less powerful so he has fewer reasons to even try and harass and will just stay back and eat his ally whenever something goes wrong?

Draconian5659 votes

But Tahm needs 3 stacks, every other suppressor is instant. Tahm takes a lot of damage when he's trying to get the three stacks and no one's going to let the carry get stacked on for free (assuming team isn't letting their carry die on purpose). His E was nerfed previously so his tankiness was hurt quite a bit.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

That argument WOULD be fine, IF there were always teammates around. But there aren't. Tahm Kench is an extremely dangerous champion to 1v1 BECAUSE he has a suppress at level 2 and it is point and click and it lasts for 3 seconds. It is absolutely absurd and there's no reason for it to be in the game.

Draconian5654 votes

It's a 2 second suppress at rank 1. By the time you max it to get 3s, you'll be in teamfights, which as the logic suggests, u need 3 stacks while getting beaten down by 5 people. Again, melee suppress is far more balanceable than range suppress. Especially if you need prerequisites to activate it.

Meep Man2 votes

Not sure about these changes to be honest. I actually think it might make Tahm Top too good. With 40% CDR, that puts it on a 4.8 second cool down against enemies. Might want to look at fiddling with the cool down numbers more.

RiotRiot MapleNectar4 votes

For sure, that's why we held off for 8.16. Could believe we need to do a lot of rejigging yet

Stróc Dúnmharú4 votes

Okay, but why are you buffing the damage of one of his abilities instead of, say, buffing his tankiness? He's supposed to be a defensive/protective tank/support. You should emphasize that instead of: "Oh, you're not performing how we want? Here's a bunch more damage on one of your abilities!" This game doesn't need more damage injected into it.

Jabalor3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LagLwtvo,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2018-07-26T00:15:45.483+0000)

Devour / Regurgitate (W) Cooldown :: 14/13/12/11/10 >>> 28/25/22/19/16

Thats almost double the CD! Personally I think its too harsh

Wolfeur2 votes

NEW :: Triggers half its normal cooldown on enemy cast

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I really think this is the wrong way to do this. I perfectly understand the power his W brings and how that W is such a big deal for pro play but if his W is going to be nerfed like that he needs more utility because the only reason you take him as a support is because of his W being able to save someone.

His Q or E need to have more ally utility, like making his Q have some aoe on the end or making his E give a shield to nearby allies when activated if his W is going to be nerfed this hard.

Dannar Hetoshi3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LagLwtvo,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2018-07-26T00:15:45.483+0000)

This was just a part of the list in testing. The full list is below - but note that since we're targeting 8.16 this could still change a lot!

Tongue Lash (Q) Slow Duration :: 2 >>> 1.5 Cooldown :: 6 >>> 5

Devour / Regurgitate (W) Damage :: 20/23/26/29/32% (+2% per 100AP) >>> 27/29/31/33/35% (+1% per 100AP) Cooldown :: 14/13/12/11/10 >>> 28/25/22/19/16 Cost :: 90 >>> 60 NEW :: Triggers half its normal cooldown on enemy cast

What's the thought process on Q changes?

Suggestion:. Leave q alone. W is the problem

W: as above except

Cool down :: 20/18/16/14/12 Cost :: 60/70/80/90/100

J Eevo4 votes

Might sound silly but have you thought about incentivizing the W usage by making the eating and spitting out a minion case an actually viable poking strategy? It's really bad currently both in terms of damage and mana used, but I figure if it was actually a viable poking tool it'd be available in lane less giving the opponent a window of opportunity - would have to be pretty powerful to even bother with the spit but I figure it's a cool idea to test out.

Tahminatrix 4 votes

Also why did they randomly nerf the ap ratio on his W so much....are they just trying to nerf his W in every way, since when was ap tahm kench op?'

And if you are gonna make tahm W cd so long you better make it so he can block damage from Zilean `s q

Profirix4 votes

They seem to think that the base damage increase is enough to offset the doubled cooldown. I can tell you from personal experience that the % max health magic damage isn't going to make much of a difference since you lose 20% or so from base resists right off the bat.

Just 4 Memes1 votes

I guess i'm really bad at the game haha. I swore 30%+ max health magic damage from 1 ability seemed busty af. I guess the high CD is too much for it though!?

Draconian5655 votes

We'd prefer 20% at 14s CD. It's a hard nerf, not just in terms of damage overall, but the fact that the enemy can pretty much jump in twice on Kench before he gets his W back. The % max health isn't as important as the CC or ability to save allies.

**Hell, if non-Kench players are so fixated on this, nerf it to 10% max health at 7-5s CD. I'll gladly take that. Damage isn't the most important thing on Kench. **

I'll freaking celebrate if that happened.

Profirix4 votes

Pretty much this. You aren't going to deal that much damage with Tahm unless the enemy allows you to sit on them for a minute or so. With how much burst is currently present in the meta, your target will be dead long before you put any meaningful damage onto them. Tahm as a support is all about the utility: your slow and your devour either to save allies or ensnare enemies. Then you use your ultimate to reposition or take advantage of an out of place opponent. If you are lucky, the enemy will let you apply 3 stacks of Acquired Taste, but it will likely only be applied by Q and autos since you can't afford to waste your W on poke.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Profirix

Is it strange that a silly skin like Birdio has me more stoked to purchase it than ultimate MF?
Story, Art, & Sound30 comments
54
votes
PSA: If your jungler isn't a powerful ganker, DONT PUSH YOUR LANE SO HARD
Gameplay40 comments
44
votes
Buffing Cho'Gath's numbers won't give him what he needs.
Gameplay57 comments
43
votes
Tahm Kench needs to get a rework or some serious adjustment
Gameplay22 comments
42
votes
I do not understand the goal of these leona changes.
Gameplay116 comments
37
votes
Do not build Abyssal Mask or Sunfire on Cho'Gath
Gameplay44 comments
35
votes