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Buffing Cho'Gath's numbers won't give him what he needs.

Profirix··43 votes·2,685 views

Even after patch 7.6, where Riot increased Cho'Gath's health gain per stack and increased the number of stacks he could gain by feasting on minions and monsters, his win rate hasn't really changed. Why do you think that is?

It boils down to 2 main things:

  1. He is an immobile champion. Sure he has all kinds of CC, but being immobile has a huge price even if you build him full tank. Most popular and successful champions in League have high mobility, frequent-use gap closers, or dodge moves. Cho has none of these things. Ultimately if a teamfight shifts, he finds himself stuck behind everyone else in an advance or retreat. He can peel fairly well against enemies who are pursuing, however he suffers tremendously when trying to predict enemy movement in a standard poke scenario.

  2. Reliability of his abilities. This partially coincides with point 1, but trying to land Rupture or Feral Scream against the most played champions in League today is much more difficult than it used to be. Granted, the reward (hard cc combined with a slow and a silence) are valuable, but he pays a heavy price for missing those abilities, which frankly are too easy to dodge.

Ultimately, he won't see more play or greater success until some reliability is put back into his kit. The Feral Scream changes many patches ago ripped away the only reliable ability he had (I'm not saying it wasn't necessary). But if Riot really wants to address his low win rate, they need to focus more on his reliability and less on pure stats.

57 Comments

DeusVult4 votes

It didnt completely fix Cho, but it keeps him relevant against most champs until he gets a complete VGU. It used to be that he either had to go full AP to deal damage, and so he would be squishy, especially if he lost his stacks. Or he would go tank, and would be an unreliable CC bot.

Now he can go tank or AP and still be tanky and have damage because of the health scaling on his ult and the lack of feast/famine on his ult stacks.

Zankren3 votes

Agreed. His E also seems rather out of place in his kit. I'd love to see them do away with his passive and make his E his new passive. Maybe make Feral Scream an AOE slow instead of silence (and increased range possibly), that way you can setup your Q. And so to keep a silence and melee ability in his kit, make the new E a point and click melee range silence. I feel this would DRASTICALLY help his reliability and playability. Thoughts?

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

:( I like his e. I can build rylai's and peel well. I can build wits end and do tons of damage. It's a flexible ability and I'd be sad to see his spikes go.

Zankren1 votes

{quoted}

:( I like his e. I can build rylai's and peel well. I can build wits end and do tons of damage. It's a flexible ability and I'd be sad to see his spikes go.

Did you not see the part about his spikes being his new passive? This way you'd probably get more out of them anyway, given that you generally max E last (though maybe not with the build you're talking about). His new melee ranged silence would probably also be an AA reset though, so even with an AA-based build you'd be getting something. And now you can skip building Rylai's in lieu of something better.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

I think it's important that it can be turned off to avoid turret aggro when auto attacking under enemy turrets.

UnboundCreator1 votes

{quoted}

Agreed. His E also seems rather out of place in his kit. I'd love to see them do away with his passive and make his E his new passive. Maybe make Feral Scream an AOE slow instead of silence (and increased range possibly), that way you can setup your Q. And so to keep a silence and melee ability in his kit, make the new E a point and click melee range silence. I feel this would DRASTICALLY help his reliability and playability. Thoughts?

Silences should not be in the game. There is a reason it got removed from kassadin and leblanc and hasn't been added to any of the new champs in a very long time.

Dominick Destine24 votes

{quoted}

Silences should not be in the game. There is a reason it got removed from kassadin and leblanc

That reason was because Leb and Kass are assassins, Cho Gath, Fiddlesticks Garen are not.

Silences are fine as long as they aren't on champions that can kill you before the silence is over.

FireDrizzle3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38E1nHEO,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-06T23:23:40.959+0000)

That reason was because Leb and Kass are assassins, Cho Gath, Fiddlesticks Garen are not.

Silences are fine as long as they aren't on champions that can kill you before the silence is over.

Cho and Garen can definately kill you before it ends. I know Garen needs to be facechecked or flash to do it but still.

Dominick Destine8 votes

{quoted}

Cho and Garen can definately kill you before it ends. I know Garen needs to be facechecked or flash to do it but still.

A Garen cannot kill you in 2 seconds unless he is insanely fed or you are Ashe. Not to mention Garen's silence is melee range whereas Leb and Kass were not. Cho Gath needs to land everything , get into melee range and you need to be a soft champion.

Another thing to note is that Kassadin and Leb could EXIT their kill range very quickly whereas Garen and Cho Gath cannot. So that's another thing of note.

FireDrizzle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38E1nHEO,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-06T23:50:24.872+0000)

A Garen cannot kill you in 2 seconds unless he is insanely fed or you are Ashe. Not to mention Garen's silence is melee range whereas Leb and Kass were not. Cho Gath needs to land everything , get into melee range and you need to be a soft champion.

Another thing to note is that Kassadin and Leb could EXIT their kill range very quickly whereas Garen and Cho Gath cannot. So that's another thing of note.

Cho gath does not need to land everything. I've killed with prototbelt w ult multiple times. The ult isnt exactly melee range and protobelt helps with that. I'm not saying hes the op ideal assassin but he can easily kill before the silence ends.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

Cho gath does not need to land everything. I've killed with prototbelt w ult multiple times.

You must have been either very fed or the enemy was Ashe.

Come on man, this argument was already refuted, keep up.

The ult isnt exactly melee range

Alright you're either trolling or knowingly talking nonsense.

Silences are fine... the Leb/Kass instances were special because Leb and Kass could kill you before you ever had a chance to fight back or escape.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Yeah if the enemy is a. squishy and b. at low hp. From full hp, you don't die like that to cho unless he's way ahead in items and levels.

Profirix1 votes

Cho must land his entire combo to kill someone, and that is only if he is building heavy AP and they are squishy. There are plenty of windows to dodge his abilities and foil his plan.

Arsenic Sulfur1 votes

Full tank/AP bruiser maybe, full AP nah. WR with maybe an auto weaved in got me some of my kills. That is, IF I COULD ACTUALLY REACH MY TARGET!

Lux Is Mai Waifu2 votes

You need to be able to toggle the spikes or it's too easy for a solo defender to make a turret tickle you.

Ainvar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CSing Support,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38E1nHEO,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-04-07T00:59:08.203+0000)

You need to be able to toggle the spikes or it's too easy for a solo defender to make a turret tickle you.

Have it not proc on turrets

woodvsmurph1 votes

you can turn cho spikes on and off. having them on does not give bonus tower damage - just turn them off when attacking tower

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

Right, but if they were moved to his passive as-is in a rework you couldn't. The other guy's comment has a good idea.

woodvsmurph1 votes

I know what you are saying. I assumed he didn't realize you can currently do that. Yes of course if it were moved to his passive you would have to be able to turn it off and on - something for which there currently is no generic hotkey programmed into the game to my knowledge - another reason why Riot probably would not turn that into his passive. Along with the fact that cho "feeds on his prey" growing stronger - which fits his current passive and is a big part of what makes cho who he is whether people realize it or not. But you are definitely correct about if they did change his passive.

Lux Is Mai Waifu1 votes

Honestly I like his passive more than the spikes, it feels really good when you clear a wave with q+w and get healed.

More interesting things could be done with the spikes than making them a passive, like leaving it on E, giving it bigger numbers but making it an active (like trist's attack speed).

Mogarl1 votes

I don't think that would really help Cho. His silence would be single target and melee. So it would only amplify his current problems, and you would screw over his jungle clear because he would have less aoe damage and no sustain.

It wouldn't do anything to help his reliability, since his issue is that he has trouble getting into melee range.

Zankren1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that would really help Cho. His silence would be single target and melee. So it would only amplify his current problems, and you would screw over his jungle clear because he would have less aoe damage and no sustain.

It wouldn't do anything to help his reliability, since his issue is that he has trouble getting into melee range.

I seems like you didn't understand my proposal fully. Given that he would have all three of his AOE abilities still (one would just be a slow instead of a silence, I don't see how it would hurt his jungle clear. Granted that without his current passive he wouldn't be as healthy after a clear. And how would his scream being an AOE slow now not help with his issue of getting into melee range?

Mogarl1 votes

Because Cho doesn't have a problem with the Jhins and Jinxes he has problems with the Lucians and Vaynees.

A cone of silence stops helps stop people with mobility from getting away. A cone of slow would be near useless because they're still going to dash away from Q.

Cho gets free, constant dps from his current E. It costs no mana and happens every auto. In addition by switching it to his passive you make it so it ranks up by level instead of by rank. Do not argue that he could still do as much damage with it, that would be broken and unhealthy gameplay. In addition to fucking the mana cost on his clear speed you've also taken away his mana sustain and health sustain by removing his old passive.

Furthermore Cho has a very large melee true damage nuke. If Cho get's in melee range of a carry they're probably dead. So what good is a melee silence going to do for him? Nothing. His ranged silence helps him get into range by stopping people from dashing or blinking away (therefore stopping them from dashing out of his Q). Cho can get a slow on W by buying a Rylais, so we can add lowering itemization choices to the list of reasons why it's bad.

Your change butchers his early game, and provides no more reliability. He loses a ranged aoe silence, sustain and the option of early wave-clear (since as a passive he can't rank vorpal spikes up first). In return he gains an aoe slow and a melee silence.

Does that really sound like a reliability buff to you? Or a buff at all in fact?

It Hertz When IP1 votes

From a thematics viewpoint, how the hell would a melee attack silence? Garen gets a free pass from all the anti-mage shit his gear is made of, but Cho?

As far as making his E his passive, there's a reason it's an ability. When it's toggled on and Cho's hitting a tower, his spikes have a chance of hitting an enemy champion and drawing turret aggro; toggle them off before attacking a tower with someone under it to avoid that.

woodvsmurph1 votes

I love his e for harass and waveclear. His w silence should just be an aoe circle around him - so enemies know they will be silenced if they get too close - cuz having yasuo dash through you as you silence only to have him "dodge" an ability he was clearly hit by is annoyingly stupid. So aoe circle all around cho for his silence. His q either needs to be faster - made at a time with few high mobility champs so it had fair counterplay then, but not now where 1/5 the champs just walk out even if you throw a perfect one on an unslowed target. Alternative is to make his q more like sion q - but to have it unique, maybe make it like a wave with it rippling out to a certain distance in 3 successive pieces - starting by cho and "rolling" outwards. Enemies can either back off, or dodge forward to a section the wave has passed through to avoid getting hit. I think having this but not making it have a cast time like sion q would be really cool and improve it's usefulness.

ItsBrittneyBtchs1 votes

It would be amazing to have the doom bot Cho's q in his actual kit and perhaps have the range of the rupture increase as cho gains stacks.

KoKoboto2 votes

Make the AoE bigger as he gets bigger, it's weird seeing a huge cho make a small scream

Standgrounding1 votes

item 3068

KoKoboto1 votes

It wouldn't be broken cause Chow would still have to be relatively close to you. 400 range radiating from his model. I'm unsure if it does this right now.

Standgrounding1 votes

It doesn't expand Sunfire's AoE at the moment, this is why I mentioned the item.

Cho'Hatch ends up being too big for the SunFire to proc. (Where's the rocket fuel???)

So, his size should expand spell size and Sunfire AoE/Randuin Area slow... Protobelt... whatnot width and length.

junglerboy162 votes

I think they ought to do a tear down rework of Cho starting from his current ult and work from there. I wouldn't give him any real mobility, since that doesn't seem his style (he's THE lumbering, world-devouring void monster of doom after all). However, I think they should give him some more reliable CC, e.g. something PBAoE, instant/nearly instant and relatively weak a la Volibear. I also think they should make his utility and CC abilities relate to his stacks in some way other than the obvious "more stacks equals higher range" idea.

I also think that changing him to be more of a peel focused tank that excels at staying alive for ages for the sake of keeping enemies off of his allies is the ideal route, and instead of a silence I feel a fear would be more appropriate.

D4 Gu1t4r2 votes

Frankly I think the ultimate changes made him much better. He's more threatening when building heavy tank, and he doesn't have to play scared all the time since the stacks aren't lost

Profirix1 votes

I don't deny that he is better than he was, but I doubt he is at the point where Riot and the playerbase are content.

PeepingPeafowl1 votes

I don't play Cho, but I hear people that do complain about really high mana costs, would lowering those help with reliability? Now that you have more overall?

Ben Sharpio2 votes

more about his E being worthless

Sohleks5 votes

His E is really good.... it costs no mana and it kills waves effortlessly... It's the secret to cho in melee matchups actually. Attack speed on a few runes... an extra rank or two and they cannot possibly all in you and ofc they can't outsustain you

Cho's problems lie in how he contributes beyond laning.

Profirix1 votes

One of Cho's problems in a top lane match-up is that he is incredibly vulnerable to ganks, given that he pushes the wave with E and has no mobility.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted}

I don't play Cho, but I hear people that do complain about really high mana costs, would lowering those help with reliability? Now that you have more overall?

It would help in lane a lot. Before backing its a big issue and you have to build for mana. Cho is forced to use auto's to farm due to the mana costs. You can farm with spells but not everything and thats a big issue because mages(in general) fuck you if you try to auto minions and it's even really bad vs some melees like, say a Darius with scripts/good reflexes that you can't poke down.

Profirix4 votes

Actually, that is a really good point. His mana costs are insanely high for his pool size, especially early game. I think the intention was to compensate it with Carnivore, but in most cases you run out of mana too quickly.

Sire Hippington2 votes

IF one has manaissues in lane as cho, then he should really rethink if it's the right champ for him. If you use his E+passive and don't just mindlessly spam your spells, you hardly can run oom in lane and outsustain nearly everyone. And later on his mana can be rather easily fixed with some items like RoA or FH. Wouldn't mind a boost to his passive later on though, especially vs champs. However, manacosts are not much of an issue for any cho that knows what he's doing, lowering that doesn't fix any of the important issues.

Cosnirak2 votes

He needs mana so that he can fish with his spells. You prevent going oom on Cho mostly by just not casting W or Q unless absolutely necessary or absolutely certain they will land. It's not fun for him to have unreliable spells he can never afford to miss. Also his mana being reliant on his passive sucks because it makes him even worse vs lane bullies who already are amazing against him because he's an immobile melee character.

Profirix2 votes

"unreliable spells that he can't afford to miss" is the heart of the issue. It is one thing to just be unreliable (Sion Q). It has a low mana cost but does a lot of damage if you manage to hit someone with a fully empowered swing. Cho loses most lane match ups because if he is forced to burn spells against an aggressive (perhaps mana-less) opponent, he runs oom very quickly.

Sohleks1 votes

Mana won't really do anything... his laning phase has always been pretty strong... and if you're playing right you won't run out of mana... it won't change his impact later game which is where he is lacking..

Profirix2 votes

His laning phase is completely dependent upon his opponent. Most of the current top laners are bullies who dominate him.

Profirix1 votes

If you can't increase the accuracy of a gun, fire more bullets. It ultimately accomplishes the same thing.

SteelMankind1 votes

Theyre gonna update him evetually. The changes just make him better than he was until they get around to reworking him

ZerglingOne1 votes

His W is impossible to land in anything near melee. Give it the Cass ult logic where there's a hemispherical bubble directly in front of him.

Also, currently it's easier to walk out of than his Q because of the wind up, and anything that puts someone right on top of him makes it impossible to land.

IdveYsUfSK1 votes

Cho used to be my most played champ when i started. But I would say he needs a serious rework on his q. Which is basically a useless skill in higher elo. The main reason i stopped playing him. Make his q: rupture, a two pincer impale knockup instantly with him rooted to the ground during cast time.

Tusutaki1 votes

Because they dont build Rylais and Stonebound in either jung or supp. The amount of heals you can give is huge. That and combined with Face of the Mountain also scales off your health people have yet to discover his power in the support role.

Profirix1 votes

I know he would be a great support...if his mana pool wasn't so bad. Poor regen, combined with a small pool means that if you don't go spellthief's edge, you don't have enough mana to cast more than 3 ruptures without running dry. That is the only issue I have with him as a support, and trust me, I've played it quite a few times.

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