I'm Kinda Confused About Shaco's New Backstab

ArnoldSchwarzens·Nov 20, 2016·45 votes·3,056 views

At first, I thought it would crit on top of your basic attacks which can crit themselves, so your basic attack would deal 245% of your AD in total at level 18 if you don't count the IE modifier and if you get both the backstab and the regular crit. But it's not like that. Either you get the backstab crit OR you get a regular crit. And the regular crit is better.

The worst thing is that one of the game designers said during the preseason dev stream that he aimed to make the rework so that a mix of crit and CDR would be the best build on him. Yet his new backstab is basically pure anti-crit and encourages you to do the opposite.

They really derped hard on this one.

40 Comments

Ulquiorra995Nov 20, 201623 votes

I think Shaco's passive description should be updated for clarity. They could make an algorithm which checks if Shaco has more AD or AP and if he has more AD it should read like this:

(P)Facestab

Shaco's critical strikes deal 80%-55% AD less damage when attacking from behind.

Joke aside, I really, really hope this was unintentional. No other champion has an ability that only acts as a severe downside without any positive effects. That'd be the worst design decision they ever made - and that's saying a lot.

The Yetii RiderNov 20, 20164 votes

Ezreal's W drains 90 mana to do nothing.

Ulquiorra995Nov 20, 20164 votes

At least it does not heal enemies. Though yes, it is pretty nonexistant on AD Ezreal aside from a niche AS boost if you have a teammate which can use it.

RisenDarkKnightNov 20, 201611 votes

Actually the AS boost is pretty huge. You can E into it to get it yourself, which is really nice for rushing down towers/dragons/barons. It's also helpful in some duels.

It really makes trading objectives a lot better for ezreals team, as it helps your teams DPS a lot if you W through all of them and E through it yourself.

You can sometimes use if in a teamfight too, for instance if you have a volibear or something running at you can W behind yourself and E into it to get the big AS boost to help shred him.

Asayake 5150glowNov 21, 20166 votes

{quoted}

At least it does not heal enemies. Though yes, it is pretty nonexistant on AD Ezreal aside from a niche AS boost if you have a teammate which can use it.

It stacks your passive, does it not?

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 20161 votes

yes, 5 stacks instantly if you hit everyone

Kr1sysNov 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxVBzdou,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-20T21:42:56.255+0000)

Ezreal's W drains 90 mana to do nothing.

Stacks your passive, only ability that isn't stopped by minions and deals its full damage. Yeah, I'd call that nothing.

The Yetii RiderNov 21, 20161 votes

It's not in Ezreal's typical range that he wants to be in (his Q makes him want to stay back), and it only stacks his passive if he hits with it. His ultimate isn't "stopped" by minions, it just gets damage lowered by them.

zero356Nov 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxVBzdou,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-20T21:42:56.255+0000)

Ezreal's W drains 90 mana to do nothing.

clearly, you are not playing ap ezreal

TauNeutrinoNov 22, 20161 votes

sad but true

Karn BishopNov 20, 20167 votes

Honestly the assassin rework saddens me, they just stat balled rengar and kha then made all the other assassins DPS over time which resulted in champions like vayne and even the 4k hp hecarim out bursting assassins while getting massive shields.

Auz the RipperNov 21, 20161 votes

talon's pretty ok

MrryZNov 21, 20162 votes

Lol

report trynd afkNov 21, 20163 votes

Dude honestly, Shaclone said it best. The Q stealth nerf, the HUGE E shiv nerf, and the backstab crit nerf all make AD Shaco much worse. That, and the new jungle is much harder for Shaco to clear. This video sums it up best; say what you want about Shaclone as a "toxic" person or whatever, but he makes a bunch of legitimate points here.

shaclone thoughts on shaco rework

EnloctNov 20, 20162 votes

Heh, its funny because I knew exactly what you were talking about because they did the exact same thing with Xin. His "free" crit every 3 attacks is lazily coded to just set his crit chance to 100% every third attack, as a stat, and just make that crit do a lot less damage. Which makes any crit chance he does buy significantly less valuable. If you have 100% crit (for some reason) then its actually a huge damage decrease.

The difference I guess is that Xin often doesn't build crit. But yeah, they've done this before and it still hasn't been fixed.

BardfulNov 21, 20162 votes

THEY NEED TO FIX THESE TWO GLITCHES. This one and thunderlord's not procing from backstab.

Teridax68Nov 20, 20161 votes

That... sounds really bad. Since every backstab is meant to be a guaranteed crit, its damage should probably scale with crit chance, as well as crit damage.

Currently, the damage multiplier formula looks something like:

1 + ((0.2 to 0.45) x (1 + bonus crit damage))

And having it scale with critical strike chance should change it to:

**1 + ((0.2 to 0.45) + crit chance) x (1 + bonus crit damage)) **

At 100% crit chance, the base crit would deal 245% AD damage past level 11, and with IE that would lead to a 317.5% AD crit, rather than the current 167.5% AD regardless of crit chance. If AD/crit Shaco ends up becoming too strong as a result, it might just be better to increase Backstab's cooldown and reduce it with level as needed (or not at all), but at least he'd scale properly with crit.

Ulquiorra995Nov 20, 20161 votes

And it kinda completely blew the point of Shaco's rework. I beleive they said they wanted to reduce Shaco's early abuse while leaving him with some late-game options. This change does the opposite. While his passive is still useful early, mid-to-late game, when you obtain crit items, is when your passive starts severely hampering your ability to deal damage.

Meanwhile Caitlyn crits for 300% + critical strike chance (both further improved with IE), which already outpeforms Shaco's ideal 317.5% you stated - all while having 650 range and no requirement of having to get behind your target. It is a sad day when someone with that kind of range is allowed to assassinate better than an actual assassin.

Teridax68Nov 21, 20161 votes

I can agree with this, but at the same time, I think marksmen are a separate issue. In a meta where everyone deals a bit too much damage, I think marksmen are the biggest culprits, and end up dealing so much damage that their DPS starts comparing to assassin-level burst, especially after they've had their own burst stretched out a little (which was a good thing). Marksmen as a class likely need a bit less damage, or at least changes that prevent all but a select few from having significant burst, which crit currently enables. Assassins are more or less fine with the overall amount of burst they have now, the issue comes down more to other classes that are now out-bursting them and showing their own counterplay issues, i.e. burst mages and marksmen.

I honestly feel like Shaco's current Backstab situation is more of a mistake than an intentional attempt at making him anti-synergize with crit. It's a major issue that needs to be addressed quickly, but I don't think whoever reworked him intended to harm one of his potential build paths like this.

Champion SkinNov 21, 20161 votes

Caitlyn passive adds between 50% AD to 175% AD (0% crit to 100% crit with IE) and the auto attack itself does up to 250% AD for a total of 425% AD (though caitlyn is very unlikely to have 100% crit)

Oh and Caitlyn traps add an additional 70% AD for a max of 495% AD (though there usually isn't any reliable way to make enemies step on cait traps)

Vayne can also have some pretty high crits with her Q adding up to 70% AD and this damage is multiplied by crit so with an IE crit it adds 175% AD for a total of 425% AD (with rank 5 Q and IE crit)

NarzghalNov 20, 20161 votes

For right now, playing Shaco , work with what we got. Start item 3715 > item 3077 > item 1414 > item 3020 > item 3146 > item 3001 > item 3025 . Sell jg for item 3285 , and tiamat for item 3089 . Just ignore the AD build, it's bad right now.

Sad Shaco main

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 20162 votes

It's probably because AP Shaco is way healthier than AD for the state of the game, especially with boxes not being able to stack directly on top of each other anymore.

VexingRavenNov 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxVBzdou,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-11-21T02:19:33.418+0000)

It's probably because AP Shaco is way healthier than AD for the state of the game, especially with boxes not being able to stack directly on top of each other anymore.

So healthy is being virtually nothing but a long range point-and-click burst spell and some boxes which are good in niche situations?

VoraciousXNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So healthy is being virtually nothing but a long range point-and-click burst spell and some boxes which are good in niche situations?

It's only burst late game if you're like full build and the enemy has no MR. Thing is though, AP Shaco makes full use of his kit, while AD Shaco only uses half of it decently.

VexingRavenNov 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's only burst late game if you're like full build and the enemy has no MR. Thing is though, AP Shaco makes full use of his kit, while AD Shaco only uses half of it decently.

He can only make marginal use of Q because he has no followup damage so they have to already be at low health. Boxes are nice but you've gotta be in the middle of the enemy team otherwise it just gets triggered by minions or by the tank who walks away with a tiny sliver of health missing. The ult and E are really the best tools AP shaco has, and I've yet to see the boxes on the ult actually do anything more than marginally useful.

AP Shaco isn't really healthy and never has been IMO. It's obviously plenty strong in really good hands, but I've never liked it compared to AD Shaco. Sadly AD Shaco is pretty much dead now in exchange for minor buffs to AP Shaco.

VoraciousXNov 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He can only make marginal use of Q because he has no followup damage so they have to already be at low health. Boxes are nice but you've gotta be in the middle of the enemy team otherwise it just gets triggered by minions or by the tank who walks away with a tiny sliver of health missing. The ult and E are really the best tools AP shaco has, and I've yet to see the boxes on the ult actually do anything more than marginally useful.

AP Shaco isn't really healthy and never has been IMO. It's obviously plenty strong in really good hands, but I've never liked it compared to AD Shaco. Sadly AD Shaco is pretty much dead now in exchange for minor buffs to AP Shaco.

I wouldn't say AD Shaco is dead, you could try a lethality build and I bet you'd get some nice use out of it. His Q works perfectly with duskblade after all, and Yoummus can help him catch up to the enemy to backstab them(which would make his passive useful if he doesn't buy crit), and Edge of Night can be charged before he goes in so he can negate some damage he might take if he does so. As for the ult boxes not doing anything, I've actually gotten kills off of those illuminati boxes, I believe one time I got a double. boxes surrounded one guy, and I had another box just outside of the triangle so when he tried to walk out he got hit with another fear keeping him in it, and I chased down the other guy and got him.

Battlecast SonaNov 22, 20161 votes

Uh, no. Now he's a trap character. Engage->clone->bait with clone death->re-engage and clean up. Litter traps around the teamfight to force people to stay in the fight. Can you explain to me how jumping in through un-revealable stealth and instantly oneshotting someone with a backstab would be healthier? Currently he at least has to put effort into it. With the AP Ratio on his deceive as well, they've actually made everything scale with AP. If you think all AP Shaco contributes is a long range point-and-click spell and "niche" boxes you've clearly never put any effort into playing AP Shaco.

JorenciceNov 22, 20162 votes

To be fair if old shaco had build pure ad (the only way to 1 shot someone from stealth)

He would simply die unless he also had flash up.

Hes got no escape or mobility.

If there was a champion that HAD to have the ability to 1 shot people id say shacos kit is the fairest.

VexingRavenNov 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxVBzdou,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-22T15:58:05.352+0000)

Uh, no. Now he's a trap character. Engage->clone->bait with clone death->re-engage and clean up. Litter traps around the teamfight to force people to stay in the fight. Can you explain to me how jumping in through un-revealable stealth and instantly oneshotting someone with a backstab would be healthier? Currently he at least has to put effort into it. With the AP Ratio on his deceive as well, they've actually made everything scale with AP. If you think all AP Shaco contributes is a long range point-and-click spell and "niche" boxes you've clearly never put any effort into playing AP Shaco.

Except when you catch somebody you still can't kill them half the time, all they have to do is turn and kill you because you do no damage.

You're right, I haven't put any effort into AP Shaco. I don't enjoy AP Shaco because I hate laning as AP Shaco, and I don't think his jungle clearing is good enough to jungle with. I like AD Shaco.

Kr1sysNov 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

For right now, playing , work with what we got. Start > > > > > >. Sell jg for , and tiamat for . Just ignore the AD build, it's bad right now.

Sad Shaco main

I just go: item 1414 item 3020 item 3089 as core, then item 3100 item 3146 are situational.

No point of going half ass AD builds like tiamat, IE, or shiv. Just pick one way to build based on comp.

xelakerNov 21, 20161 votes

I don't miss shaco being able to instajib my adc in every team fight like the old shaco people want back...

KoKobotoNov 21, 20162 votes

I don't like watching my carries get one shot either but it's part of the game and core to assassin playstyles. You could say "I don't miss every single thing that lessens my chance of winning" but their really is no point.

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 20163 votes

Uhm, the assassin rework was specifically designed to remove the oneshot gameplay. SO this is patently un-true.

KoKobotoNov 21, 20161 votes

The only assassins who can't one shot is LeBlanc and Fizz, due to how LeBlanc's passive is a huge source of her damage. I'd say Fizz can still one shot with rangeR, E, Q if he is ahead enough. The others whose kits haven't been changed too much can still kill under a second, I've done this many times playing assassin Ekko, Kha'Zix and Talon. I have seen the rest of them do the same either from watching others play or in-game.

However what you said has little relevance to what I'm saying which is it's pointless to say you are glad that a champion can no longer do what their role entails. Complaining about assassin's being able to assassinate is like complaining about tanks tanking damage, it is pointless.

Battlecast SonaNov 21, 20161 votes

assassins can still assassinate. They just do it in 3 seconds instead of instantly.

Riot is redefining what assassins do. It's not about 100-0ing people instantly anymore, because there's no real way to play to counter it - it makes the game dictated almost entirely by items, balance state of champions, and picks. Riot is redefining assassins to being skilled at something they (used to be) more focused on - diving into a fight, disengaging, and then cleaning up. It's clear when you look at things like Shaco's kit (re-engaging on clone explosion can be pretty strong for AP Shaco, but he can't just appear from stealth and oneshot you), Akali's kit (engage, proc passive, disengage with shroud juke, re-engage when passive comes up), LeBlanc's kit (CD on passive means you either have to outplay and kill them when your CDs come up or disengage and re-engage later when passive CD is off).

Riot wasn't happy with gameplay that allowed a champion to finish xyz items and delete someone from the game. I'm sure they'll work their way to other roles, but I feel assassins have been one of the most problematic overall in this regard when they get strong.

KoKobotoNov 21, 20161 votes

Yeah okay, still has little relevance to what I said. Also they CAN still assassinate in under a second.

VexingRavenNov 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pxVBzdou,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-11-21T02:18:11.903+0000)

Uhm, the assassin rework was specifically designed to remove the oneshot gameplay. SO this is patently un-true.

And it was a bad design. Everybody else has gotten more and more damage lately, and then assassins get less. Why does that make sense? And not only that, but only SOME assassins got less damage. Some stayed where they were or got even stronger when they were already strong.

ezréaINov 21, 20161 votes

Goes tank Shaco after quitting being a Shaco main after a while Goes against plat friend somehow 5/1/12 - 154 CS - gets S

Conclusion that tank Shaco isn't bad either.[slayer-jinx-catface]

TauNeutrinoNov 22, 20161 votes

Shacos new passive is a complete crap:

Ill summarize it for you: It is a debuff for himself in late game. If you want to do dmg, attack from the front! With IE and Shiv youre in for a 70% chance to do 250, where as from the back you will most likely just do 145%.

They just completely fucked him up.

A very sad Shaco main....