The nerfs to Sej and also to cinderhulk remind me of something

DeusVult·Mar 26, 2015·72 votes·5,580 views

They did the same thing earlier this season

+ was insanely strong

Next Patch: they nerf hard

They nerf so it is now almost exclusively used for its damage reduction

they nerf (the enchantment) so its no longer as strong

goes from being a mediocre pick, to being a top pick, to getting nerfed because of an item, then the item gets nerfed so it no longer makes him anywhere near as strong. Yet got no compensation, and he's back to being a mediocre pick

You don't see them saying + is too strong, lets nerf both of them and then not give compensation to either when the problem resolves itself

97 Comments

JamareeMar 26, 201527 votes

Just want to put out that to this day, Warwick has maintained a higher win rate then Lee Sin, oh wait, I'm not allowed to use win rate to defend a champion because reasons...sorry, keep forgetting that win rate only matters when it isn't in your favor. My bad.

SEKAIMar 26, 201520 votes

Win rate should differ a lot when Lee constantly maintains more than double of WW's pick rate.

It's only natural for a high picked champions to have lower win rate than expected, and ofc vice versa..

JamareeMar 26, 201521 votes

As opposed to when Warwick had his level of play and ban AND a good 10% higher win rate?

SEKAIMar 26, 201519 votes

If you're suggesting that a simpler champs in mechanics should be intentionally balanced weaker, then I am sorry, you think exactly like Riot and that's horribly wrong.

When a champion's kit is extremely straight forward and offers almost 0 versatility, the champ is simply being hard to play else where and there is NO need to keep him weaker artificially on the balance table.

EDIT: I am not saying WW wasn't broken, he was, but saying the current WW is maintaining higher win rate than Lee is really saying nothing at all.

JamareeMar 26, 20157 votes

They should, a champion who is incredibly with the hardest thing he has to manage is point click and hard cc should be weaker then one who has to manage skillshots. Hell, what sense does it make that one as simple as Warwick should be more difficult then Less Sin? High skillcap should deserve more utility, or damage or whatever. I'm all for balance, but that is an unrealistic goal to think all champions should be around the same strength, especially when some are so basic, if they were all at the same power, why would you take the advance one over the basic one especially if they did the same job?

SEKAIMar 26, 201516 votes

Let me lay out the strength and weakness between high skill cap and low skill cap champs, and why it's a fallacy that we need to intentionally keep the low skill caps weaker which leads to today's disastrous state of LoL's balance.

High skill cap

Versatile, fits into any team comp, and works in meta comp that has no real weakness
Mobile
Overloaded kit and mostly spammable but hard to get around the kit in using its max potential
Generalist, fundamentally can not be counterpicked or counterplayed, maybe subjected to counterbuild and that's pretty much it, they were designed to fundamentally have no exploitable weakness.

Low skill cap

Fits and works extremely well in niche comp, but it introduces team weakness
Not mobile
Straight forward kit that is OP when conditions favour them, otherwise, useless
Specialist, fundamentally designed with strength and weakness in mind, they play while avoiding their own weakness and seek to exploit their strength.

And really, Lee has one of if not the strongest point and click cc in the entire game, and besides that all he need is to land 1 single skill shot that frankly has almost no cd when maxed, I fail to see why he should even be balanced strong even by the general public's standard because it makes no sense.

Ideally, high skill caps are hard to play in managing his/her own kit, low skill caps are hard to play in fitting into team comps, abusing his strength while avoid being exploited and shut down completely. One is tactically oriented and one is strategically oriented, they are of completely different things to begin with, to say one should simply be better than another is precisely why LoL's balance scene is objectively a complete joke in the highest level of play.

Skill cap is no reason to ask for more actual power. This is balance 101.

JamareeMar 26, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Let me lay out the strength and weakness between high skill cap and low skill cap champs, and why it's a fallacy that we need to intentionally keep the low skill caps weaker which leads to today's disastrous state of LoL's balance.

High skill cap

Versatile, fits into any team comp, and works in meta comp with no real weakness

Mobile

Overloaded kit and mostly spammable but hard to get around the kit in using its max potential

Generalist, but fundamentally can not be counterpicked or counterplayed, maybe subjected to counterbuild and that's pretty much it, they were designed to fundamentally have no exploitable weakness.

Low skill cap

Fits and works extremely well in niche comp, but it introduces team weakness

Not mobile

Straight forward kit that is OP when conditions favour them, otherwise, useless

Specialist, fundamentally designed with strength and weakness in mind, they play while avoiding their own weakness and seek to exploit their strength.

And really, Lee has one of if not the strongest point and click cc in the entire game, and besides that all he need is to land 1 single cc that frankly has almost no cd when maxed, I fail to see why he should even be balanced strong even by the general public's standard because it makes no sense.

Ideally, high skill caps are hard to play in managing his/her own kit, low skill caps are hard to play in fitting into team comps, abusing his strength and avoid being exploited and shut down completely. One is tactically oriented and one is strategically oriented, they are of completely different things to begin with, to say one should simply be better than another is precisely why LoL's balance scene is objectively a completely joke in the highest level of play.

Then how come the low skill cap thing didn't fall around Warwick with the release of that new jungler item? He didn't gain more mobility, his kit got no buffs, apparently his counters became more and more apparent with each new champion release so he couldn't fall in the generalist side of things, and until said jungle item, his own thing going for him was his ulti and still is.

Or how about with Sejunai right now, who once again was part of his low skill cap zone, got a new item, and leapt into the season without getting a single buff to her kit.

So let's say we do buff low skill champions like Garen to be on par outright with the higher skill ones, what is stopping them from just shoving out champions with mechanics far more difficult then what is in their kit? Why would it be fair that Lee Sin has to land a skill shot, ward hop, then properly aim his kick to initiate, when Warwick did the same with a single point and click button?

SEKAIMar 26, 201512 votes

Things can be broken with numbers, that's why specialists are pretty easy to balance since all you really do is pretty much change the number around statistics and that's cool.

Generalists are hard to balance since it involves so much more than just numbers.

Not to mention, WW's true counter is half missing from the game, grievous wounds, that's a problem by itself too, but to say that WW should be kept weak because of Riot's own incompetence? No.

Also I never get the idea why people always put Garen to the easy to play champs, have you actually played him? He is so much harder to play with all things considered, why?

Firstly while designed to be an early powerhouse, his early really isn't amazing, at least not now,
you have 0 lock down nor instant mobility so you have to purely chase with running along with some help from MS steroids and a silence, nor are your bursts spectacular to begin with
your cs'ing sucks but you have a spell for that which instantly pushes waves for you leaving you open to be ganked
you have an ulti that is really good in killing stuff, but you don't scale EVER. Making the incentive of using it completely redundant.

Garen is only good in taking damage, that's all he fkn can do. What can Lee do? You tell me.

You see the difference between high and low skill cap champs now? Not matter what happens, averagely, high skill cap champs will ALWAYS be more useful than low skill cap ones, unless ofc, the favours fall completely in them low skillcap's way, which ofc they have to EARN it. Unlike high skill caps, their overloaded kit is BORN with them, you just need to practice and nothing more, meanwhile low skill cap champ players have to play with their limited kit and potential and adapt from situations to situations.

To summarise, high skill caps have versatility, low skill caps have numbers.

To say that high skill cap should also be numerically stronger than low skill caps, just no.

If you buff Garen he may dominant B5, ofc he will, but in pro scene he would actually have a chance to get picked and sitting in an actually balanced spot other than being this piece of shiet he is now. I am not saying that you shouldn't cater towards low elo players but if you balance the game around that level, you're asking for a boring and completely static high elo scene, which ofc, we already have it.

Go figure.

EDIT: Also Lee has 2 instant gapclosers (3 if you count flash) for the initiation, WW has to physically run to you (or burn flash) for that to work and he is suppressing himself in the process too.

JamareeMar 26, 20153 votes

Well, we can either choose to buff the low skill cap and have low elo players infinite QQ about things they can't beat and create a bigger rift between low and high elo players and have things that aren't even that powerful getting nerfed into worst states, IE Mordekaiser and Akali, or we can buff around the high elo play and have a more balanced game at the sake of seeing the same thing over and over, whether we balance around high or low elo play, someone is going to get shafted either way.

SEKAIMar 26, 20153 votes

I am pretty sure they can find a place that is somewhere in the middle if they really have someone who is good with number analysis in the balance team.

That guy would cost some fortune to the company, yes, but for a company that is operating an Esport who doesn't wish to go for Dota's balance approach where they balance almost purely around top plays, I can't see why they wouldn't want to spend some money to actually save their own game.

But really, while Dota balances around top play, I really don't hear much complaint either since you know, people KNOW the game is balanced, they just aren't good enough to beat the pubstomp champs.

If I were to choose between balancing around low elo or high elo,** I would choose the high elo ones tbh**, and give players more ban options too (like 5 per team and each from each player in the same team, so everyone has their right to ban out their nemesis if they really don't want to see him/her). That would be best.

JamareeMar 26, 20155 votes

{quoted}

If I were to choose between balancing around low elo or high elo,** I would choose the high elo ones tbh**, and give players more ban options too (like 5 per team and each from each player in the same team, so everyone has their right to ban out their nemesis if they really don't want to see him/her). That would be best.

More bans would help honestly, ten total over the current six would definitely increase diversity.

WarlockLawMar 26, 20155 votes

Imo low skill champions should be top tier at specific things. In comparing Lee sin and Warwick I feel that properly balanced Warwick should always perform better than Lee at farming and dueling but since Lee can gank before 6 as well as being more mobile Lee needs to use those advantages to gain an edge on Warwick

XonraMar 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}

As opposed to when Warwick had his level of play and ban AND a good 10% higher win rate?

You are literally missing so many points I don't know where or if I should even start.

WW has a specific play style and always has, and his autos make him or break him in some cases.

The new jungle was difficult as shit when it was first introduce, so when you introduce an item that a champion that is based on faster autos that lifesteal to allow you to thrive where most other junglers are pushed out....no shit he is going to have his win rate go up.

Also why his pick rate went up, because it was just a no brainer that if you wanted to not get wrecked in solo queue you needed to survive the jungle....yet his pick rate plummeted when the item and the champion were nerfed, and his win rate actually dropped quite a bit as well compared to where it started at the beginning of the season.

It just sounds like you want to argue and are purposely being oblivious to very obvious facts.

JamareeMar 26, 20153 votes

My point in that post is that low skill cap characters shouldn't be that much stronger then high skill cap characters, they shouldn't be outright better simply because it takes no brains to play them.

SEKAIMar 26, 20154 votes

No one should be simply better, that's the entirety of balance, everyone should have equal strength with everything considered.

But no brainers should have more basic raw stat like damage or defense, because high caps have more versatility, mobility and utility.

If Riot is willing to do that, the low elo can be a little problematic but the pro scene would get a new life. Then they only need to maybe do some catering, just a very very VERY little bit for this game to be absolutely perfect.

XonraMar 26, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Just want to put out that to this day, Warwick has maintained a higher win rate then Lee Sin, oh wait, I'm not allowed to use win rate to defend a champion because reasons...sorry, keep forgetting that win rate only matters when it isn't in your favor. My bad.

Every time I see someone type this I just have to facepalm and wonder if you look at more than 1 single stat.

No, in this case, win rate DOESN'T matter.

Lee Sin has a 12% higher PICK rate as well. (20.7%)

WW is only shy of 8%

That is a pretty big difference considering WW only has a 5% higher win rate than Lee, when Lee has a 12% higher pick rate. Maybe...I dunno, more people in general are playing Lee, so his numbers are going to naturally end lower. When you have Nooblord16 thinking he is the next Insec and losing 10 games in a row on Lee, but only a select small group of people actually good at WW play him....I can't imagine why the numbers would look different.

If you are going to state something, then try to make a snarky comment with a stat, at least use the correct stats with the attached numbers, because win rate means shit in this specific example when you add in the pick rate as well, and see you have no leg to stand on in your argument.

JamareeMar 26, 20153 votes

I can't even keep track anymore of what we are supposed to use a measure for balance. Is it win rate, because at times champions with rock bottom win rates are the ones being asked about to being nerfed, is it LCS play, because if so, then fine, nerf him and make him unviable for everyone not at that level.

We need to decide right now, it is win rate or LCS play that decides where we should set balance because people flip back and forth on whatever they are trying to get buffed/nerfed.

Nerf Lee Sin, but his win rate is trash, but he sees LCS play

Nerf Heim, but he doesn't see LCS play, but his win rate is above average.

However, cases of champions that do incredibly well in both like Kat, do need nerfs.

SEKAIMar 26, 20156 votes

Balance was never about abiding 1 or 2 pieces of information to begin with.

What is ironic is that Riot, know what exactly they need to do to make the game actually diverse, they just really don't wanna do it, in their effort in making the spectator part of the sport more interesting (or as I mentioned earlier, they don't want to make low elo too chaotic which I can see why, but they went too far). What they don't know is, if we can see 90 - 100 + champs in the tourney instead of like idk, 30 - 40? Hell that would be interesting too.

"Who is xxx gonna pick?", "oh xxx picked yyy, what is zzz gonna do?", "ah xxx team picked aaa combo and yyy team have bbb combo" etc. That is good too, instead of like today where every tourney match pretty much ends with the champion select, where everybody can see where the game would go unless something really stupid happens.

JamareeMar 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}

"Who is xxx gonna pick?", "oh xxx picked yyy, what is zzz gonna do?", "ah xxx team picked aaa combo and yyy team have bbb combo" etc. That is good too, instead of like today where every tourney match pretty much ends with the champion select, where everybody can see where the game would go unless something really stupid happens.

As the game currently stands, this will never happen. Let's say we nerfed every champion that falls in that generalist category you have, a new top ten will sit on the throne and last there until the next wave of buffs and nerfs. The diversity of this game will forever be held back because counters for the champions who are at the top aren't as hard as they are in other games. When Warwick was at his apex, sure, his counters were the same, but his strengths were pushed so far forward that they simply didn't matter. Oh, counterjungle him, oh, deny him, oh the first ten minutes of the game he isn't a factor, buy grievous wounds/morellos. Didn't matter, he reached his spike and got to run over anyone simply because of the power he was given from the new jungle item. Same thing with Lee Sin, he is strong because his counters especially champion wise aren't that powerful, they get strong, he would get shoved out.

Personally, I don't think he is that bad, really don't, annoying, but I would much rather face a Lee Sin with an opportunity for error when he comes at me, then Warwick walking up ultimating me and me dying without any way to fight.

SEKAIMar 26, 20153 votes

No if they place all the champs in the position they actually belong to, like generalists lack in raw power but have more subtle hidden power and specialists have more in-your-face power while being open for exploitation. The game would be diverse, even better if we have more individual and viable items in the game (which let's just say they should stop deleting items instead of reworking them, and the current item shop leaves way more to be desired).

More is always good, trust me. Professionals should only come in to keep things in order when they are not, not to force a particular order down people's throat.

If anything with correct balancing, diversity would only be in trouble in low elos where people are incapable in utilising the hidden power of high skill cap champs, but one should know, they are titled "high skill cap" for a reason, they are not meant to be used effectively by your average joe to begin with. And they should be balanced as such.

One could make an argument that low elos shouldn't be too chaotic which I would agree, but LoL's current balance state is taking that way too seriously to the point the entire game, especially the highest level of plays, is suffering because of it.

Lee doesn't have a counter champ, he was designed that way, if there is anyone who is remotely close to being a counter to Lee that would prob only be Udyr. But he is not an actual counter in a sense a balanced Zed meets a balanced Kayle.

Kuroi86Mar 27, 20152 votes

Win rate matters, but there's more to the picture than that.
Pick/ban rate is also a big factor. You've also got to consider how viable champs are, WW is great with specific team comps but will absolutely flounder outside of them. Lee Sin is no longer the god tier he was, but is still fully viable in nearly any team comp you can imagine which causes a lot of hate for him.

Meeks011Mar 27, 20151 votes

Cause 70% of people are Bronze so they're easier to beat. How much LCS play does Warwick get? How much LCS play does Lee Sin get?

MapoMar 26, 201518 votes

LOL PEOPLE ARE STILL COMPLAINING ABOUT LEE SIN?

DomainSpecificMar 26, 201513 votes

Boards = Circlejerk about LeeSin， Zed, LeBlanc and Nidalee.

No matter what you say or how good your arguments are, they will never change their mind and downvote you.

MigrañaboyMar 27, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Giles Heng,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pvbks8nz,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-03-26T05:53:51.386+0000)

LOL PEOPLE ARE STILL COMPLAINING ABOUT LEE SIN?

It's GD, the reason that Riot doesn't take serious this forum anymore.

SwapShadowsMar 26, 201515 votes

Honestly at least lee sin has to land a Q, all warwick had to do was smite and then use a point and click supress. The problem with sej is that she is doing way too much damage for how tanky she built and her crazy amount of CC was too big to be dealt with.

The5lackerMar 26, 201543 votes

Ward hopping exists, Lee Sin doesn't have to hit shit.

LeeSin "Nailed it."

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 26, 20151 votes

Must make a meme for this... EDIT: I've done it: https://imgflip.com/i/jd5zm

CindikleMar 26, 20151 votes

Make one of him half way ward hopping at low HP.

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 27, 20152 votes

Done

SEKAIMar 26, 20156 votes

Lee can also smite and he has 2 gapclosers with an aoe slow, also WW suppresses himself during his suppression on others.

So yeah.

junglerboy16Mar 26, 20153 votes

Either way, getting 100-0ed by a bruiser with a single ability and special summoner spell was never fun. At all.

SEKAIMar 26, 20158 votes

That pretty much only happens either because he already farmed so godly with Devourer or got a BotRK, which the first one is obviously the enemy teams fault for not paying attention to his MIA and the second one tbh is Riot's fault for going bat shiet during S3 and released such an unbalanceable item like that.

Besides him can go way too far and killing people in the instant he appears on top of them, his ulti is perfectly counterable by either cc with stun/silence/knockup/knockback during its channeling, you can also run Qss or just burst him down if you have enough damage.

While WW has his problems of scaling too well with AA procs, which is the entire point of his existence, function as an AA proc'er. The major reason to why he CAN scale completely off the chart is as I said, mostly contributed by the existence of completely unbalanced items like BotRK.

Without BotRK, I don't think we would have a lot of WW talk today at all, since he would just be that niche pick who occasionally came out and be really good in what he is made for.

flibitydooMar 26, 20154 votes

Devourer pre-nerf started with 40 stacks. Buy that item and your autos now deal an extra 40 dmg. For warwick, that's an extra 200 damage for his ultimate. And unlike Nunu/Fiddlesticks, your opponent can' escape it.

It also costed about 2k gold to complete, with the components being bought from the very start of the game (it built out of machete), meaning that it was even easier to complete.

You didn't have to farm to deal a lot of damage with devourer stacks. You didn't even need BotRK to smite+R. Just rush a 2k item from the start and smite R for 500+ damage nuke, during which the target is stunned, during which an ally can easily contribute some extra damage as well.

Counterbuilding usually doesn't happen until 15 minutes into the game because every champion in the game has a core item build (unless you're a dedicated tank, in which case you'll usually be building tank items to counter your lane matchup and not the jungler). Keep in mind that Warwick's damage then (and now) is mixed (magic and physical). By the time you are countering his ultimate, he could have easily used it to earn a good 5-10 kills.

DarkFaun FortesMar 26, 20152 votes

whats that!? Nerf Irella, ok!

KingsgraveMar 26, 20159 votes

Sejuani will be fine Tanks will be fine

Losing 50 Health and having to spend like 100-200 more gold isn't going to destroy Tanks.

Rinky DinkyMar 26, 20158 votes

People over exaggerating again

Love it

Lets ignore that riot pretty much spam warned that sejuani would get nerfed if they buffed tank junglers, and the item itself would be nerfed (Specifically the flat HP) if it proved to be too strong.

50 hp is nothing, and the item should not cost less than the others, as it is probably the strongest jungle item out of all of them.

Sejuani's nerfs are also non existent if you can aim. Stop bitching.

P.S: Lee Sin still? You realize that by buffing everyone, he is no longer a problem right?

Chromatic EagleMar 26, 20152 votes

It doesn't have to be one or the other. People's complaints about Lee haven't gone away, they've just been marginalized.

junglerboy16Mar 26, 20157 votes

The difference: Warwick was basically gutted (lost damage on ult and -duration on W really cut his clear speed and kill pressure) item 3718 got nerfed in two very significant ways (-base damage on devourer, crippling change to the true damage on hit) And on top of that, Warwick WAS NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST LIKE THAT.

Sejuani got one minor damage nerf and a skill cap increase. item 3725 lost 50 health. wooooo. Sejuani did not have a toxic game breaking play pattern and is simply numerically overpowered (her stats are too strong) they are also nerving them one patch apart for the sole purpose of making sure she wasn't overnerfed last patch, where WW and Skirmishers got nerfed the same patch because Riot wanted to get rid of a toxic, no counterplay, instakill tank.

They actually have nerfed stalkers, and warrior, and the one champion type that basically does Lee sin's job but better (hard CC tanks) simply outclass him (having early game pressure doesn't help if a wombo-combo tank wrecks your team in the mid game). Lee is only popular still because 50% of the people playing this game don't read patch notes and still think he is OP like the beginning of last season. He is a sub par pick and sees a fraction of the competitive play he used to. His damage falls off even harder than it used to because he cannot kill a tank in the least. Tanks also have much better utility and durability, and building one damage item and then tank leaves Lee woefully useless in comparison to a tank who can have superior late game damage, as well as durability and utility.

AbiwonKenabiMar 26, 20153 votes

Nice, detailed post. You said everything I was wanting to say but better.

Rinky DinkyMar 27, 20151 votes

I agree, but I certainly dont think lee is bad.

He has a place now, instead of all the places, which is good.

He has a niche, instead of being the decider of whether or not a champion can jungle lol

junglerboy16Mar 27, 20151 votes

Yes, Lee's place is the premier early aggression jungler, which is a much more defined niche than it use to be. I still think he is a little sub par right now because he falls off so hard and having a strong early game only helps if you team can really transition into an amazing mid game, other wise his effectiveness becomes less and less noticeable as the game goes on.

Rinky DinkyMar 27, 20151 votes

Yes, he has the highest chance at snowballing his team, other than nid, while falling off the hardest, but having some cc.

That's how it seems it least. I approve. Other early gamers either stay relevant, or have less early game and bring cc.

It's almost like... there is strategic diversity 8)

junglerboy16Mar 27, 20151 votes

8^)

RaptameiMar 26, 20156 votes

Talon item 3071

Tentacle LoveMar 26, 20154 votes

Warwick : 90% ban rate because of a bugged item making him ludicrous. item got fixed, then changed. no longer banned every game; playable. healthy nerf. Sejuani : 50% ban rate because she's the strongest tanky jungler out of the tanky junglers. go figure, an ability that scales off hp makes a %hp buff crazy. seeing adjustments. loses 50 hp on the item that still gives her way more than that. her ultimate got a nerf that makes you want to be more accurate with it.

It's not really the same level of nerfs; or the same level of OP. Warwick was dealing pure damage, more true than true damage. he was guaranteeing champion erasure on the first gank. there were far too many champs that couldn't build against that and the only defense was the ban. Sejuani is just hard to kill. That may well and truly be more oppressive, but it's a lot less intimidating.