@Riot: We have AD and AP bruisers, mids, and junglers. Why is bot lane stagnant?

Serenity Now·Mar 15, 2015·4 votes·1,352 views

Don't know it's intentional or an oversight, but why not break open bot lane with a few AP ranged auto-attackers? You could even re-work a couple of existing champions for this purpose, like Teemo and Varus.

Edit: There's this thing called ratio scaling, that can be used to bring damage from AP items in line with AD items. Also, spell-vamp can be enabled for on-hit magic damage. It already works this way for Cho'Gath and his E.

34 Comments

Angry MonsterMar 15, 20152 votes

cause 800 AP autos is OP. AP should never be used for auto damage out side of the items that are in game already.

Serenity NowMar 15, 20152 votes

That's where scaling is used.

And by the time you get 800 AP, you've got AD auto-attackers doing as much or more with crits.

Angry MonsterMar 15, 20151 votes

LOL that not even close to fair. BF gives 5 for 1550 but a large rod gives 80 AP for 1600. Complted bf items are max 80 AD completed AP items are 120. Early ADC itemization is gated by chance. AP will not be.

WHAT GATE IS THERE FOR AP? THE IDEA IS HORRIBLE

Serenity NowMar 16, 20151 votes

Sigh... There's this thing called ratio scaling that many here seem to not understand.

Angry MonsterMar 16, 20151 votes

find one that works then. any scaler will ruin the early game of any champ.

just admit it u have not thought this through

Serenity NowMar 16, 20151 votes

This is not hard.

Currently, an auto-attack gets +1 damage for every point of AD.

A point of AP costs roughly half as much as a point of AD. So you could give an AP auto-attack a ratio of 0.50 AP.

That might have to be adjusted if Critical Strike only applies to an AD auto-attack, but maybe it should apply to either.

Angry MonsterMar 16, 20151 votes

does not work. AP items do not scale linearly. So someone who spend 1600 on a large rod will only get 30 out of it? Making the purchase super inefficient and not worth playing since any AD will actually scale into a mid game. .

TRY again, actually dont.

Serenity NowMar 16, 20151 votes

The auto-attack may only get a 0.5 or so ratio from AP, but that doesn't mean the rest of their kit does (including steroid abilities).

You may want to avoid career paths that involve creative thinking when you grow up.

GhostOfShrimpmasMar 15, 20152 votes

So, from the responses here, I'm seeing that the reason there's no AP carries in bot or AD supports is because...current champions don't have the appropriate kits and ratios? Seems reasonable.

Very Hard EngageMar 15, 20151 votes

because they cant take the poke the other ranged adcs can dish out against them. and if you want to make a total ranged ap with early wave clear, that would be crazy op.

right now the closest thing to this would be kog maw and ezreal which can pull it off but are kinda suckish with waveclear until much later.

Serenity NowMar 15, 20154 votes

Why is a ranged auto-attacker that scales off AP going to be OP compared to one that scales off AD? That should really be the only fundamental difference... the damage type they scale off of. Everything else is kit design.

If Rumble (AP) can go toe-to-toe with Garen (AD) in top lane, or Ahri (AP) versus Zed (AD) mid lane, I don't see why the same can't happen in bot lane.

Very Hard EngageMar 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=preh327J,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-15T21:38:28.303+0000)

Why is a ranged auto-attacker that scales off AP going to be OP compared to one that scales off AD? That should really be the only fundamental difference... the damage type they scale off of. Everything else is kit design.

If Rumble (AP) can go toe-to-toe with Garen (AD) in top lane, or Ahri (AP) versus Zed (AD) mid lane, I don't see why the same can't happen in bot lane.

because a full 40AP from a rune page vs 20 ad on an adc, the adc just auto attacks, the AP needs to use an ability and burn mana. now if you want his AA to deal magic damage from AP then it becomes OP late game because i can easily reach 700+ap but the adc can only reach around 400.

Serenity NowMar 15, 20151 votes

That's where scaling is used.

And by the time you get a high amount of AP, you've got AD auto-attackers doing as much or more with crits.

Very Hard EngageMar 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=preh327J,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-15T21:50:58.738+0000)

That's where scaling is used.

And by the time you get a high amount of AP, you've got AD auto-attackers doing as much or more with crits.

you would have to suggest an amount. otherwise they dont have attack speed, or they lack the ability to crit, or it becomes OP/UP, etc etc. i would see 5 nashors and 1 rab cap and it would probably decimate, or anything else would be less than an adc.

OnegarionMar 15, 20153 votes

What would the scaling look like? It would have traditional ADCs with about 400 AD late game and this new AP ADC (if thats a thing) with 800+ AP late game. Tweaking the numbers would be just downright awful and they would have tons of damage in their kit with the AP builds. Unless you plan on simply having a AA heavy champ who is AP then I have a certain emperor that would like to talk to you and his little scout friend ( Azir / Teemo )

Serenity NowMar 15, 20151 votes

Original post suggested re-working Teemo and Varus into an AP auto-attacker role, since their kits are almost there.

I wouldn't consider Azir a true auto-attacker.

KingsgraveMar 15, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=preh327J,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-03-15T21:52:56.828+0000)

Original post suggested re-working Teemo and Varus into an AP auto-attacker role, since their kits are almost there.

I wouldn't consider Azir a true auto-attacker.

Literally all Azir does is autoattack.

PæanMar 15, 20152 votes

Azir imo doesn't auto-attack, his soldiers do it for him. His own AAs do close to nothing like any other mage.

At least that's what i think OP is trying to say.

iamleburkMar 16, 20151 votes

i think the word you are looking for is "marksman"

BranchofSin5580Mar 15, 20151 votes

I rather have some Physical damage supports.

Like a Reworked Taric.

Hell, item 3050 could become viable.

The Storm DragonMar 15, 20151 votes

Riot has nothing to do with that, it's the playerbase. And the reason ADC bot is done is because it allows for better objective control. Specifically dragon.

Serenity NowMar 15, 20152 votes

Please explain how bot lane damage type influences Dragon control. That makes no sense, at least to me.

IcyPepperMar 15, 20154 votes

Sustained damage, due to dragon's health, is more useful than a bunch of spell cooldowns (which should be saved for enemies if they try to contest dragon). Lifesteal, critical hit, and all that is useful for soloing later on, which is difficult for mages to do even with lifesteal.

Serenity NowMar 15, 20151 votes

Spell vamp.

If Teemo's E were an activated steroid that proc'd spell vamp, you've got an AP equivalent to life-steal and crits.

Really, it's all in the kit design.

IcyPepperMar 15, 20151 votes

shrugs

OnegarionMar 15, 20151 votes

ADCs are by far the best at any objective control. They Build glass cannon exclusively compared to all the other roles. Their entire goal is deal consistent damage and take objectives. High DPS from them is great for taking objectives from towers to inhibs to dragon/baron. Not to mention the fact that bot lane is right next to dragon (for good reason) and i really doubt your support is going to contribute a whole lot outside of vision in taking it.

The Storm DragonMar 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serenity Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=preh327J,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-15T21:41:55.464+0000)

Please explain how bot lane damage type influences Dragon control. That makes no sense, at least to me.

Because AD is good for sustained damage while AP is good for burst. Objective control relies on sustained damage. Ergo...

DrakylonMar 15, 20151 votes

There's also the issue that a magic damage dealing AA'er doesn't have any counterpart to the lifesteal ADs get. Spell Vamp doesn't proc on on-hit effects, and all lifesteal items currently released are designed for AD champions. As long as lifesteal exists without an AP counterpart, AP AA'ers won't be much of a thing.

Serenity NowMar 16, 20151 votes

Yes, spell-vamp does. See Cho'Gath and his E.

PerishSoftlyMar 16, 20151 votes

Cho-gath's E: Vorpal Spikes adds an on-attack effect to Cho'Gath's attacks. The effect causes Cho'Gath's attacks to launch a linear, pass-through skill shot in the direction of his target. Applies spell effects as an area of effect ability. Hextech Revolver item.png Spell vamp is reduced to one-third effectiveness. Rylai's Crystal Scepter item.png Rylai's Crystal Scepter will apply a 15% slow. Magic damage will be mitigated by magic shields. Banshee's Veil item.png Spell shields do not block the ability.

Nowhere does it state that it is an on-hit effect. It specifically states "On-attack". This is why Cho'gath can damage Jax while dodging, Teemo/Quinn when blinding, and hits Nocturne, Sivir, and Morgana (if he does enough damage) through their spellshields.

Serenity NowMar 16, 20151 votes

Vorpal Spikes is an AoE spell effect that augments Cho's auto-attack.

It does proc spell-vamp. Buy a Hextech Revolver and try it.

Sire HippingtonMar 15, 20151 votes

cause ad-carrys are the lategame gods, and still have a incredible powerfull laneing. the only champ that can fill an adcs role in the late atm is cassio, her dps is high eniugh to match an adc, and so is her sustain.

as long as adc-items outscale other items that hard, you can only gamble on a early snowball victory if you don't go for an adc, unless more champs become such an ankward hyperscaling as cassio.