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@Riot @Meddler, I've got one simple question for you.

Canastus··59 votes·5,488 views

"How is anyone supposed to play Cassiopeia in a meta that's entirely set up against her?" Well, consider this thread as the abridged version of what I'm trying to get across in the other one. (Still, I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd take your time to read the long version, it has plenty of interesting points.)

If the majority of (popular) midlaners are already counterpicks to her, when is it ever okay to pick Cass in a Solo Q environment? From a statistical viewpoint, her pick- and winrate have reached new lows, such as 2% and 44% respectively. This has been an ongoing issue for months already and you even admitted how you're aware of her current problems along with the strong dislike for her rework. So why aren't you taking any action? Well, let's look at RiotRepertoir's post for a second there.

"Cass isn't currently a scheduled project due to us wrapping up the season and preparing for the next. This isn't to say someone can't get some ideas rolling on her, but we do have to be respectful of the current stuff planned. I think the good news for Cass is that I really think she doesn't need a ton of change to help out in most of the main areas where old Cass mains would be happiest."

This has to be most questionable response I've seen from a red regarding this topic yet. So your main argument is that you're pretty much afraid of any drastic changes before Worlds is happening? At the same time you release major changes to several OTHER champions (see the last 2 patches) while going as far as to introduce a semi-rework for "juggernauts". That's pretty huge if you ask me. Your argument doesn't really stand if you already contradict yourself with your very own actions.

It's almost as if we've gone full circle since her rework came out, we're back to having an extremely questionable and underperforming champion who defies every expectation of her playerbase (what happened to that poison mage identity of hers?) while being widely inaccessible to everyone else. History is repeating itself and you're simply looking away, how is that okay?

79 Comments

ShinTwist15 votes

#Justice_For_Snakebutt

Bhagswag14 votes

Can you just add more jiggle to her bewbs? Thanks. Need something to balance the amount of toxicity she spews.

Canastus6 votes

[deleted]

Bhagswag5 votes

Woah... summoner 32

Linna Excel2 votes

Miia's panties are cuter.

Knalxz2 votes

WTF is going on here?

Canastus1 votes

It's funny, I post one ecchi image and I instantly get their attention (post deletion). But the thread itself doesn't get a single response from the reds.

Cassiopeia is in a miserable state, the mobility creep counters her extremely hard and there is nothing she can do against it since she'd need at least 2 screens of vision to avoid any nasty surprises.

I wasn't able to beat a single team with a Diana, LeBlanc or Ezreal on it since they can all-in me with extreme ease before I can even retaliate. Since they all build loads of damage, they're highly rewarded for doing the first move whereas a squishy immobile caster like Cassio gets a rusty shovel over her head without any chance to reply. This isn't okay at all.

Either they need to give Cass some form of reliable mobility or they have to increase her sustain/tankyness, I see no other way for her to survive in this mobility infested meta.

KING OF MASKS13 votes

Seems like Cass is one of rito's greatest failures.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

A rework that the community didn't ask for, failed to grasp both her old identity, and her new one, and is now rarely played?

iamleburk1 votes

"one of"

Auryiel12 votes

Cass' rework is just so, so horrible...

It's possibly THE single worst rework any champion's ever had

Karma 's rework pretty much deleted the old Karma, but at least it led to an interesting champion (I just wish it was ANOTHER champion, not Karma) with decent, healthy mechanics and an ok balance

Trundle 's rework was only disgusting from a lore and visuals point of view, however the Traditional skin helped alleviated this second problem. From a gameplay standpoint it was very good

Mordekaiser 's rework is pretty damn bad gameplay wise, his new kit is horribly thought out and I'm sure it'll be one of those kits that Riot will wish they'd never released, but outside of the way Morde is played, he is intact and at least he is still (for now) usable

Zilean 's is just bad in terms of how weak it's left him, but I do believe that aside from a passive change, Zilean's updated kit can be fixed with numbers

Meanwhile, out of all those more ''hated'' reworks, Cassiopeia's rework has literally no redeeming quality. It completely destroyed any chance of having build or playstyle variety, forced everyone who wants to play her into what is considered by the players who used to like her an abomination AND A BORING ONE AT THAT, has made her kit even more toxic than it was before, rewrote (and I should really say downgrade, here) her personality and changed her VO to a shitty version of what it once was. What's the end result, here? Cass is shit tier, unbalancable, boring and a one-dimensional cliché character.

And Riot gives no fucks.

The Queen Viper3 votes

"Shit tier" ? No, not really... powerlevel-wise she's still just fine, but sure, when it comes to her actual gameplay it is quite monotonous.

More variety to her gameplay that is not related to spamming her E, would be quite nice.

Solumindra4 votes

Considering her 44% winrare, and extremely low pick rate.

She is not "fine" powerlevel wise

The Queen Viper2 votes

To be honest those stats don't really tell much... more likely that people are just bad with Cass and don't know how to play her properly.

Solumindra4 votes

Actually they tell a whole lot.

Low pick rate means shes niche'. Which means that the majority of players who play her are already familiar with the champion.

On top of that her win rate is ~44%, among the lowest.

So she has a niche player base, that has a low win %.

Yes, that is a clear sign that she is in a bad spot. You can deny things all day, doesn't mean they don't exist.

The Queen Viper1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, that is a clear sign that she is in a bad spot. You can deny things all day, doesn't mean they don't exist.

You don't seem to remember that she still is a late game carry... at least personally, most of my defeats come from the simple fact that people don't want to play for the late game. They fail early, start tilting, lose motivation and then they stop playing. Simple as that. Has nothing to do with Cass really.

Nasus has quite similar win rates according to various sites... not sure how accurate they really are.

Solumindra2 votes

Once again. You can deny things all day, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Riot has even admitted she is in a bad state right now. I don't really understand why you are fighting an already lost battle lol.

The Queen Viper1 votes

{quoted}

Riot has even admitted she is in a bad state right now. I don't really understand why you are fighting an already lost battle lol.

Probably because I'm doing just fine with Cass ... unlike the people who are whining here.

Solumindra2 votes

I'm doing fine with her too.

Doesn't make her balanced or in a good state though.

That's like saying, I'm a millionaire the economy is fine! When it quite clearly, is not.

Abyssphere4 votes

{quoted}

To be honest those stats don't really tell much... more likely that people are just bad with Cass and don't know how to play her properly.

In Diamond+ her win rate is still only 46% and the only thing she's above average at is killing people (and she's only just above average there): http://champion.gg/champion/Cassiopeia

The win rate doesn't lie. She's bad.

Krys Star9 votes

I just wish I could go back in time, or find a private League server that retains the old Cassiopeia. She just isn't the same anymore, especially her personality... :\

Snaketits2 votes

Glad to see someone else who's missing her personality aswell. She doesn't even hiss anymore!

Leu078 votes

HOWEVER, MF changes have just happened, people complained about her being really lackluster (me included) and there is a rioter (statikk) already working on her and making changes to make her feel good! Cassiopeia got loooots of complaints even before her rework got pushed live and they just don't look at her.... This is sooo bullshit.

ElenaAckovska6 votes

Im a relatively new summoner so i don't know patches and stuff like that, but i love playing Cass and i think she is a great champion being my secondary champ (my main is Aatrox). Im a simple girl so i just want a few changes into her abilities, Like a area where she can fire her Q (i know that that is a part of her difficulty but i still dont think its fair to use that ability when you most need it for example and you have no idea where it hits or are you in range or not) Maybe they can rework her E too so you dont have to click on the champion every time you want to fire twin fangs and have to wait not even half a second cooldown (funny time) maybe they can make it like jinx's W or even Aatrox's W where she can switch from twin fangs to normal attack. Maybe if this makes her too strong they can nerf her in other areas which i highly doubt. I do think Cass needs a rework and that these changes will make her more playable.. :)

gusti có chim to12 votes

{quoted}

Im a relatively new summoner so i don't know patches and stuff like that, but i love playing Cass and i think she is a great champion being my secondary champ (my main is Aatrox). Im a simple girl so i just want a few changes into her abilities, Like a area where she can fire her Q (i know that that is a part of her difficulty but i still dont think its fair to use that ability when you most need it for example and you have no idea where it hits or are you in range or not) Maybe they can rework her E too so you dont have to click on the champion every time you want to fire twin fangs and have to wait not even half a second cooldown (funny time) maybe they can make it like jinx's W or even Aatrox's W where she can switch from twin fangs to normal attack. Maybe if this makes her too strong they can nerf her in other areas which i highly doubt. I do think Cass needs a rework and that these changes will make her more playable.. :)

Smartcast is the solution

Thryale2 votes

yeah, what LeagueOFGuga said, use smart cast. It's really weird and uncomfortable at first, but give it a week or so, and you'll never go back. It's just like going from fixed cam to free cam.

The key strength it brings for Cass is that it lets you hover your mouse over her victim and all you need to do is press E and it'll automatically cast twinfang. Mash E while keeping yer cursor on point for instant death.

If you don't know how to turn it on do this: go into a game, press escape, and click the toggle box above the Q, W, E, R button icons and you should be all set. (I like to turn my item on smart cast too, but that's not quite as necessary)

Ayame Isaki2 votes

I actually use the shift trick for quick cast; I leave quick cast off and hold down shift when I want to use it... To be fair I didn't know about the option originally and learned to play this way so it is habit now.

Thryale2 votes

fair enough, but to me that just seems overly cumbersome. too many buttons to mess with in a fast paced environment.

Gorgannan2 votes

Using quick cast for her E is best.

Ironclad Dragon5 votes

I'm legitimately surprised no one's brought this up yet:

What a pretty face.

Bhagswag2 votes

I'm too busy trying to get her bewbs buffed.

Teémò4 votes

I hate to call you nuts, but she does extremely well. she is like a ap version of marksman if your running out of mana it's because your not csing correctly to refund your mana, or your just really bad at poking poison to proc your passive well with liandry's does massive damage to not only single targets but teams in general able to single handedly carry games by her ability to position and dominate engages as well as kitting enimies don't blame the champion but your positioning :/ not trying to be hard on you just learn what makes her worth playing first and it's why I'll never stop playing her :P her ultimate can be hard to pull off at times though I'll give ya that win rates don't matter to much she's actually quite popular just hard to master

Vekkna19 votes

Please punctuate so we don't have to read wall of text 4 times to figure out what the fuck it means.

Champion Skin10 votes

Actually low pick rate + low win rate Is a really worrying sign... as the lower the pick rate in general the more experience the players who keep playing the champion are with the champion

Kuroi863 votes

This has to be most questionable response I've seen from a red regarding this topic yet. So your main argument is that you're pretty much afraid of any drastic changes before Worlds is happening?

More like they've already got their plates full and need to get a few things done before they can get to Cass, would you rather they be overworked and likely screw something up?

At the same time you release major changes to several OTHER champions (see the last 2 patches) while going as far as to introduce a semi-rework for "juggernauts".

Which has been months, possibly over a year in the works. The work Riot has been doing isn't last minute stuff, it takes time. Seriously, remember how long we were waiting on the Sion rework?

Canastus5 votes

Cassiopeia was in a questionable state for quite the considerable time, too, and is still waiting for help. This argument doesn't excuse it, also don't they have several teams which are working on multiple things at once?

You can't tell me they're overworked. This isn't an indie-company anymore, this is a multi million dollar game studio with representatives all over the world.

All I want is a direct response from a red who's actually willing to listen to what I'm saying.

Kuroi861 votes

Cassiopeia was in a questionable state for quite the considerable time, too, and is still waiting for help.

And we have confirmation that she is going to be looked at in the near future. Dropping current projects just to please a player base can bite you in the butt if you're not careful. We've also got to consider that the player base for Cass is wanting something that is a very touchy subject. A poison based mage, that is a dot based mage, can be highly toxic to play against (See Teemo ) and requires a LOT of forethought. For what it's worth, her current kit does a fair job of living that dream (Not great, but fair.)

About the only way I can imagine her kit being more tuned for a poison based mage dream would be to extend the duration of her poisons a little, drop the damage on all of her basic abilities and have E buff the damage on her Q and W exponentially more than it does now. In that way you can make her poisons deal exponentially more damage but requires you to keep poison and E stacks maxed on an enemy champ to deal maximum damage. The damage is moved from E while preventing Cass from dropping a Q or W and walking away with a won trade thanks to her dot.

Champion Skin3 votes

Teemo is toxic because he is incredibly hard to deal with from some melee champions Because he is quick (his W) and hard to get to thanks to his (W + R) and even if you get to him he still has his blind if you are an auto attack reliant champion

Also his harass costs no mana as it is a passive ability...

In general... DoT's are just the same as instant abilities.... but weaker (if a DoT and instant ability does the same damage and such then the instant ability will almost always be better as the DoT gives the enemy time to react and use shields/healing and might survive thanks to HP regen and even if the DoT's will kill the enemy... it will still take some time and that might give the enemy enough time to turn around and kill you)

Kuroi861 votes

In general... DoT's are just the same as instant abilities.... but weaker (if a DoT and instant ability does the same damage and such then the instant ability will almost always be better as the DoT gives the enemy time to react and use shields/healing and might survive thanks to HP regen and even if the DoT's will kill the enemy... it will still take some time and that might give the enemy enough time to turn around and kill you)

And as a result if you want the dot to be effective you've essentially got to over tune it compared to instant abilities. I think Riot had the right idea with low base damage on Cassiopeia poisons while having her E amplify the damage, the problem is people see E spam as better than using it to stack more poison damage. About the best way to fix this is to lower the damage on E but have it buff the damage on Q and W more while her passive can give more % AP on her Q and W. The other alternative is to still lower E damage, but have it extend poison durations and/or lower the enemies magic resistance for as long as they are poisoned.

Solumindra4 votes

Or you can just rework her instead of trying to force a bad kit into something it was never intended to do.

the poison amp was added after the rework. This whole kit is designed around E doing the dmg. THIS KIT will never work with a DoT champ. She will need a whole rework again for that to be the case.

yellowbricks3 votes

Naww it's completely normal for a company to take a 5 month sabbatical each year to cook a vat of popcorn and watch nerds play this game. They can't waste their time on fixing the shit one retard broke (apparently he broke another champ too rip)

Linna Excel1 votes

I think riot said they wanted the juggernaut patch to be the last big thing before worlds with the next two being tweaking of that. They wanted the LCS to have time to adapt to the changes.

Canastus8 votes

What's stopping them from buffing Cass then compared to a rework?

Is it that much to ask for? Their nerfs basically removed her from the game and they intend to keep it that way?

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Considering Cass kinda needs another rework since it feels terrible to play against her and just normal buffs would make it worse.

Linna Excel1 votes

What kind of buffs though?

I mean should riot drop her stone gaze ult and give her a poison mage ult of some kind? Should they ease off her mana costs? Should her E restore more life and mana than it does? Do her skills lack the killing potential she needs as a low mobility mage?

Tendrian6 votes

getting rid of tzhe retarded passive would be a nice start :)

Solumindra3 votes

The ult doesn't need a start up. I've argued this since pre-rework.

If you wanted to buff her it would be really easy. Like stupid Easy.

Remove the wind up on ult. Full stacks at 350.

Done!

Oerba No Naja5 votes

"you cant remove casting time on a aoe stun / slow spell" Annie oh , nvm

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

What's stopping them from buffing Cass then compared to a rework?

Is it that much to ask for? Their nerfs basically removed her from the game and they intend to keep it that way?

Generally speaking AOE stuns are difficult to balance around. Look at Sona, Riot nerfs her constantly because of Crescendo. Look at Annie, she's all over the place because of Flash Tibbers. I imagine Riot worries if they just buff Cass she'll be toxic to play against because AOE stuns are just that strong.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I actually think Cassiopeia is pretty strong. She's never at a stage of the game where she falls off. She has great lane bullying and her passive rewards her for being a lane bully, she has great teamfighting, and she's a lane game god. However thematically her kit is totally random. She's not a Poison Mage, and she's not some seductive manipulator like Ahri. She's a Teemo if his blow-dart gun was a machine gun.

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