people talk about mobility/damage creep a lot

Big Lincoln·Mar 7, 2017·13 votes·1,302 views

What about AoE creep? almost everything is AoE now; the only exception I can think of that came out recently is warwick rework and Camille (but her stun is even a small AoE for god knows why).

what about CC creep? There isn't a single new champion that doesn't have a slow or a stun or a knockup these days; there ARE other forms of utility that Riot just refuses to tap into. and if it's a slow, then it's usually spammable

nobody talks about these but I think they're equally as bad as damage constantly climbing up every season. mobility creep hardly an issue to me, honestly

42 Comments

Asayake 5150glowMar 7, 20175 votes

Perma slows and assassins having AoE is my main gripe.

Although my Riven has a shit ton of AoE, but she's not really an assassin, since she has no escape.

JoxcabMar 7, 20171 votes

Which assassins have meaningful AoE?

Asayake 5150glowMar 7, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Which assassins have meaningful AoE?

Zed Rengar Leblanc Ahri and don't even get me started on Katarina

JoxcabMar 7, 20174 votes

I'd argue against both Zed and Rengar. Zed's Q/E is still primarily single-target focused and loses damage against multiple targets.

Rengar's Q really shouldn't be hitting more than one person anyways, and his W on AD Rengar isn't that painful.

LeBlanc's Q bounce through W, fair. W alone? Shouldn't really be hitting that many people without just getting her killed because of the lockout before she can return.

Personally, I don't consider Ahri an assassin, more just a mobile mage.

Katarina, yeah, forgot about her.

Asayake 5150glowMar 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'd argue against both Zed and Rengar. Zed's Q/E is still primarily single-target focused and loses damage against multiple targets.

Rengar's Q really shouldn't be hitting more than one person anyways, and his W on AD Rengar isn't that painful.

LeBlanc's Q bounce through W, fair. W alone? Shouldn't really be hitting that many people without just getting her killed because of the lockout before she can return.

Personally, I don't consider Ahri an assassin, more just a mobile mage.

Katarina, yeah, forgot about her.

I play melee champions - if I'm fighting Rengar with another melee ally, then he's gonna hit both of us. If he jumps on a carry and I try to peel him off, he's gonna hit me as well. Same with Zed and LB.

AhristocatsMar 7, 20171 votes

you never saw a rengar 80-0 2 targets with 2 Q? cause i saw it and it's retarded

It Hertz When IPMar 7, 20171 votes

You don't need to escape if there's no one left alive to chase you.

Asayake 5150glowMar 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pm8smJMX,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-03-07T16:20:01.272+0000)

You don't need to escape if there's no one left alive to chase you.

Exactly. (that's kinda the whole point of Divers)

It doesn't work if you don't kill them though.

MakharyaMar 7, 20172 votes

Yes because you like so much people with everything in damage like tryndamere or veigar.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

Because there are other forms of utility besides 'le dash' / 'le stun'

it's overdone at this point.

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

At this point I don't think Riot considers CC and dashes to be utility. Especially with utility and crowd control being different categories for champions in the new client.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

well then I can just say there's too much CC and not enough utility in that case

it looks like Galio is going to have CC on every single ability, which annoys me to be honest.

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

Considering he's a tank, so? Though I doubt there's CC on his E (or whatever his gust is).

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

2 knockups and a taunt is way too much, man, assuming his Q is a knockup like it looks to be. that's 2 different things you can't even use tenacity against

it's getting to be repetitive

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

One is a single target knock up, the other is an ult that requires a teammate to target, and we haven't seen his taunt yet.

Though yeah, league is getting a bit repetitive. Camille was basically Vi/Irelia 2.0 for me.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

Camille was such a disappointment, a character all about 'precision' beating you with sheen procs and a flurry of auto attacks instead of being an assassin

i'd really like to see something completely new

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

Well she wasn't an assassin.

Also, Ivern.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

ivern is a bad new, he's imo one of the worst designs in the game. nobody should be able to do what his passive lets him do

outside of that he's nothing groundbreaking

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

So what is new to you?

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

something that you can actually play around that's not just cheesing your buff while you can't do a thing to stop him

it'd be pretty interesting to see something based around wall-bounces and trickshots, portals etc. I've been getting into some JoJo, as well; would definitely be really neat to see riot take some inspiration from some of the stands.

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

Taliyah.

Edit: Standa are awesome but also flat out nuts.

It Hertz When IPMar 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pm8smJMX,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-07T14:39:52.702+0000)

CC on every single ability

Nautilus I see nothing wrong with this. Blitzcrank Wait, so 3+ forms of CC on one champ is a bad idea? Leona PRAISE THE SUN Sion Shut up, Leona, that's not funny anymore.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

of those champs Sion is the only one that can be pointed to as well designed

It Hertz When IPMar 7, 20171 votes

Although I know I'm really biased on this one as Leona's my favorite tank support, I don't think she's poorly designed. She has a lot of CC, but (at least in laning) her entire combo ends up just CCing one target, and she has to fling herself into enemy lines to get her rotation off.

Blitzcrank is just fucking stupid. IDK who in Riot thought being able to pull an enemy into your team should take up that little of his power budget, but they're a moron.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

Leona has the problem of getting ahead and then stomping the enemy team relentlessly, or being behind and only being able to suicide into enemy team and hoping hers will follow up on whatever she could do before she exploded

I've always believed blitz hook should be moved to his ultimate; it's way too good for a spell you can take at level 1

RalanrMar 7, 20172 votes

Seems like a weird spell to make his ultimate. You'd have to buff it to ignore minions and make it less linear since it'd be too easy to miss.

You can make it an ult, just seems weird. I always thought about just weakening it by making it pure utility with no damage scaling or base damage.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

only other way to make it acceptable as a normal spell would be to make it more telegraphed like Thresh's hook

would be nice if Riot reworked blitz to be a top laner like he was intended to be

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

Back in what? Season 1 when it was a point and click hook?

He's pretty much a support champion now as far as Riot sees him.

Though making it more telegraphed could work, might have to adjust the missile speed. Or make it so you could break out of it.

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

make blitz fighter again

RalanrMar 7, 20171 votes

I'd rather Riot not make fighters for a while after Camille.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 7, 20172 votes

Hmm. I can agree, to a point. I find that most champions are only really useful if they have SOME form of CC, even if it's just a 10% slow. The only other alternative is that they have obscene mobility to make up for a lack of CC ( MasterYi is a good example of this - he has no CC whatsoever (ignoring items, of course), but his ult gives a TON of movement speed, and his Q helps him catch up even more), so that they can actually get a kill. However, I do agree that CC needs to be reigned in a bit, not everybody needs hard CC. But a small knockback (along the lines of a reverse Diana E) or a small slow (like the slow on Kindred 's E) are perfectly acceptable, and, more importantly, allow someone to be at least slightly useful no matter what (assuming they get the ability off, that is), as a 1/17 Yi can't do anything short of body-blocking with his W, but anyone with CC can just use it on the assassin and/or carry.

AoE is necessary to having wave clear. While it should be carefully moderated, everybody needs the ability to push somewhat quickly (not everyone needs Ahri or Soraka 's Qs, but MissFortune 's E isn't too overkill for them to have) no matter the role they play in. Low-damage AoE on anyone is about the best for this, as it also helps in making sure you can at least hit a slippery champion with something.

It Hertz When IPMar 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

allow someone to be at least slightly useful no matter what

Now see, I disagree with that. It's a great idea on paper, but in practice such measures are either too weak to be meaningful or result in someone you CANNOT ever shut down.

Also, I assume you're referring to Soraka's old Q. Her new Q doesn't even come close to having enough damage to be used for waveclear.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 7, 20171 votes

I'm talking about the new one. With a maxed Q, she can do around half of a wave's health while still building support. I once kicked a MissFortune 's ass with her, it's not that hard.

the weeabooMar 7, 20171 votes

Name an old champ that doesn't have at least a slow, stun, knockback, or root? The only true CC less champs I can think of are Sivir Akali MasterYi Ezreal and that's 4 out of 135...

PhDs NutsMar 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Name an old champ that doesn't have at least a slow, stun, knockback, or root? The only true CC less champs I can think of are and that's 4 out of 135...

Lucian Nidalee Mordekaiser

the weeabooMar 7, 20171 votes

7 out of 135 I still find that pretty laughable

Big LincolnMar 7, 20171 votes

Katarina Mordekaiser Lucian Nidalee

xeviMar 7, 20171 votes

[deleted]

NechroniaMar 7, 20172 votes

It blatantly doesn't.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 7, 20171 votes

Akali has a slow on her W.

EvanThomasMar 7, 20171 votes

F L A S H Y P L A Y S

Teridax68Mar 8, 20171 votes

I agree with this, and I don't think it's all that new, either. It's already been years since League has entered a state where entire classes of champions don't feel useful unless they have crowd control, and AoE damage is casually handed out to champions who should absolutely not be specializing in AoE, simply because it facilitates their waveclear. New Galio is a clear example of this, I think, as he's been turned from a champion with only two CC abilities, one of which is truly significant, and who only cared about AoE damage when ulting, into a champion with two dashes, both of which have an AoE knockup, and a spammable AoE damage on-hit effect on top of his other AoE damage. At this rate it feels like many older champions are falling out of favor simply because they can't do as much as the newer additions, and not just because they have gameplay or identity issues.

While I have many criticisms about Heroes of the Storm, and consider League to be better, I think the game offers a glimpse of what could potentially be a healthier design environment: in it, there are a great deal many champions with no innate crowd control (Abathur, Kharazim, who's also a support, Samuro, The Lost Vikings, etc.) melee champions with no innate mobility (Arthas, Gazlowe, Murky, Uther, etc.), and champions with fewer mechanics overall, but who still manage to be viable, and who get to do very impressive things that would be impossible in League. CC, damage, durability, mobility and utility are all useful strengths to have in that game, and there are quite a few characters who can do many things at once, but practically all of them have a place in the game, and none of them are faulted for a lack of those strengths as hard as in League.

When a champion like Lucian, who has some of the best mobility in the game on top of great burst and DPS, is said to "not contribute enough" by Riot themselves, that's when I think there's a serious issue, and I think the devs need to do a pass where they scrub as much extraneous power from kits as they can, handing effects and mechanics only to champions who are meant to be strong at them, and adjusting the game environment to better accommodate champions with low waveclear, weak crowd control, low mobility, poor damage, etc. It's one of the reasons why many champions often feel like they share too many gameplay features with each other, and freeing up the game's design constraints could allow for much more unique and quirkier potential playstyles.