Riot's Balance team is trolling us :Zoe Edition

Azadethe··10 votes·1,206 views

Okay. you guys know I'm generally a defender of Zoe by now, and that I generally have a complicated view of the 8.4 Nerf/Rebalance. I must stress: i do not play Zoe, but I have played her and generally know both her shortcomings and how to beat her.

Last patch in a nutshell: Buffed More Sparkles, Buffed W, and nerfed Q into the ground, and took away one of its More Sparkles Procs.

Now..... here's what's on the PBE right now:

Zoe Attack range increased from 525 to 550

Paddle Star (Q) - (damage changed, now gains damage based on Zoe's level, Q first hit no longer applies passive's damage, AoE lowered to 80% for those not directly hit.) Damage increased from 45/60/75/90/105 (+20% AP) to 50/75/100/125/150 (60% AP) No longer also deals More Sparkles! damage to the first target hit Now also gains base damage based on Zoe's level 7/8/10/12/14/16/18/20/22/24/26/29/32/35/38/42/46/50 Now deals 20% reduced damage to enemies not directly hit.

Spell Thief (W) Bubble acquisition range increased from 525 to 550 Damage increased from 70/115/160/205/250 (+60% AP) to 75/120/165/210/255 (+75% AP)

Now.... just so we have safe comparisons, I'm going to show you what Q did in 8.3:

Paddle Star:

Base damage : 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165. Could More Sparkles Twice. 66% AP ratio Increased by 0-150% depending on range

So.... let's plug in some Math:

At level 11 (a general game impacting level) with 250 AP:

8.6 Will do the following on a max hit: (150 + 150 + 26) X 2.5 (100% + 150%) = 815 damage. if hitting a E'd target, that's an additional 240 damage and 1 proc of more sparkles = 160.25 damage.

That's a 1,055 damage Q in the upcoming patch at level 11 with only 250 AP.

Now: 8.3 was this:

(165 + 165) X 2.5 = 825 Damage. If hitting an E'd target, that's 1065 Damage Q.


In other words, what Riot just shipped to the PBE results in 10 less damage on the outright Q than the pre nerf damage Q.

However.... several things.

-8.4 Buffed More Sparkles -8.4 Buffed W's Move speed and damage. -8.6 Buffed W's damage even MORE.

So basically, what Riot's doing with 8.6 so far: They are reverting her Q damage, but buffing her passives, while keeping the E nerfs (Cooldown reduction removed, cleansable on all parts of the ability).

I'm not particularly against the old Q damage. It added a mini game for opponents to try to figure out how not to die to her, and it was extremely rewarding to kill her.

But at the same time as buffing all her mid game auto attack attributes? I don't know.

She'll be punished for missing E, but if she never misses E, her in lane ability to kill you is going to be stronger than ever.

If she takes unbound spellbook, she can pretty much ram new summoner's at you every time she recalls from mid lane, in addition to minion and champ dropped ones for a HUGE damage boost.

At which point.... all she has to do is R over a minion wave, E you at point blank, and then use her auto attack kit to deal More Sparkles and W damage.

Sure.... E will now be on cooldown if her opponent survives that, but I don't know if it's going to justify the buff her her overall damage.

I do agree with Riot that moving her damage to her auto attacks is the right move: auto attacks are mid/early game viable to correct champs who have horrible early game performance and win rates (Zoe's win rates based duration of game has always been dismal before 35 minute games. her primary role is a late game closer)

But, doing so while keeping intact her Q is a scary idea.

I guess we'll find out whether or not all that needed nerfed was her E. But I guarantee her LCS level play if this patch goes through is going to mean that Zoe stays banned and when she isn't, she's going to win more than just 49%.

21 Comments

Tomoe Gozen6 votes

Ah yes, the ol' "Riot's attempting to figure out the right set of buffs for Zoe AFTER they intentionally overnerfed her" tactic. But we can't have that because some people think Zoe should be left in the gutter for all times...

It's on PBE, it doesn't mean it's going to be shipped to Live in the next patch. In case you haven't noticed, Riot does this sometimes and also pulls back the changes for another test cycle if they don't feel confident or they think they haven't had enough time to iterate (like they did with Rengar's Q revert).

Let's stop pretending like this is a sure thing. They may be just testing how much is too much and what aren't the correct things about Zoe's kit they don't need to touch OR they're actually looking for other ways to give some power back to Zoe and not actually frontload her Q with more damage.

Ahristocats2 votes

OP forgot that zoe Q no longer applies passive

this whole math thingy is wrong Q is going to deal (at lvl 18) 200+60% ap minimum of damage 500+150% ap max damage

still a nerf compared to 8.3

and it will still deal less damage to additional targets which means still no waveclear

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Well, RIot did say that Zoe is a champ that shouldn't have good waveclear because she tended to shove waves into the opposing laner's tower and then also get rewarded with super roaming AND if the enemy laner strikes back, she gets to chunk them in one Q (if not outright kill them). I'd understand if they wanted to give her more damage (not one-shot damage though) but still not impact her in a way to have better waveclear.

Malix Farwin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pm3pra85,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T23:18:46.809+0000)

Well, RIot did say that Zoe is a champ that shouldn't have good waveclear because she tended to shove waves into the opposing laner's tower and then also get rewarded with super roaming AND if the enemy laner strikes back, she gets to chunk them in one Q (if not outright kill them). I'd understand if they wanted to give her more damage (not one-shot damage though) but still not impact her in a way to have better waveclear.

Well thats the thing, what mid laner who can shove the lane isn't rewarded with super strong roaming: Fizz Ahri Zed Azir Brand Ekko Diana and the list really goes on, can shove the lane and roam with just as much reward. I mean it would be quicker to mention the one mid that does really Heimerdinger and he is played top half the time.

wildfox994 votes

Spell Thief (W) Bubble acquisition range increased from 525 to 550 Damage increased from 70/115/160/205/250 (+60% AP) to 75/120/165/210/255 (+75% AP)

when zoe's W ** passive** deals far more damage than ahri's W active (224 + 48%AP)

feelsbad [cass-cry]

Azadethe3 votes

Ahri's is spammable :S

wildfox991 votes

{quoted}

Ahri's is spammable :S

it was just some humor for saying that ahri's scalings sucks and zoe's W is really too strong (on top of this 75% scaling she gets a 70% ms buff and a free item/summoner spell,while ahri's W doesn't nothing more than some damage)

btw 9/8/7/6/5 sec is still way higher than average of "spammable" abilities

Spank the Fox1 votes

Except it’s completely gated by Summoner Spells and item drops, as opposed to Ahri having it on a unconditional 4 second CD after the bolts are fired?

wildfox991 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pm3pra85,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T13:51:12.859+0000)

Except it’s completely gated by Summoner Spells and item drops, as opposed to Ahri having it on a unconditional 4 second CD after the bolts are fired?

in a team fight there will be always at least 1 item active/summoner spell,in a early/mid game 1vs1 either her or her enemy will use at least 1 summoner spell,and don't forget at least 1,this ability have no CD (0.25)

ahri's W CD is not 4 sec,it's 9/8/7/6/5 sec (based on ability lvl) after bolts are fired (so it starts with some delay),9 sec when zoe can potentially proc it 4 times (but at least once) with 0.25 sec CD

that's would be fine if her Q woulndn't getting buffed

Azadethe1 votes

Your ability to pick up those summoners is the real challenge. You have to reach them without dying and still be worth it.

Azadethe1 votes

The ability really isn't. Tons of champs exist who are far more utilitarian and useful for skills, like Talon and the fact he can wall jump as long as he has mana.

I think people overrate summoner spells. They're neat universals, but they actually aren't that strong compared to actual champ skills, and Zoe's access to picking them up isn't exactly all that strong, unless from minions. Flash and Ignite have their uses, but that's not what 90% of Zoe's pickups are.

9-5 reduced by 40% btw. Ahri's W has the same per cast damage as her Q, btw. and it spams every 3 seconds or so.

SweedishGunner4 votes

Fuck knows why they keep buffing the undodgeable damage parts of Zoe (P, W).

As weird as it sounds...she needs a rework.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

Haha

No, she doesn't.

Sex With Annie2 votes

"If she never misses E" What does that even mean, the only way she can never miss is if you never make an attemp to dodge it.

Not only that but the numbers on her W arent damage per missle, theyre total damage. If zoe is missing her abilities she will die and if she is hitting them she will kill you, what's the issue?

Azadethe2 votes

It's actually pretty easy for her to miss E unless she point blank shoots it at you. I have literally had ONE Zoe beat me with Zoe in any Zoe incarnation, and it was when she point blank E'd my by using R to get close over minions. I've almost NEVER been hit by a wall E or a direct line of sight E.

It's still 2 AP ratio buffs within 2 patchs on her W. it used to be 40% overall. Now it's 75% from 60%. She's going to be almost DOUBLE the AP ratio on W as she was when released, and 5 more base damage. I know it's not that useful unless you have summoner's spells on tap, but it does change the flow of fights when a Zoe masters W.

Luminev1 votes

Oh no oh no This shit's gonna give me aids if they don't fix conqueror. Shits broken enough on Zoe (Getting the combat timer to start is really easy for those who don't have pbe. Just auto the enemy once and wait for seconds or auto minions 4 times and bam you're dealing twice the amount of damage electrocute and comet can with all of your abilities for the next 4 seconds). [sg-ahri-1]

Nausicäa 1 votes

You might wanna learn to read before spreading false information and making posts claiming that they are reverting Zoe's Q nerfs. and claiming she will be OP. They arent.

Her current PBE Q damage is similar to her 8.4 Q damage with the exception being that on the PBE she has better wave clear.

Azadethe1 votes

They aren't even close lol.

Q base is going from 105 to 160 (8.3 it was 165) They are adding per level damage (That hasn't existed before) AP ratio is going back up from 20% to 60% (8.3 was 66%)

You really don't know your patches if you claim this is anywhere near 8.4.

Malix Farwin1 votes

Missed the part where it does reduced spread damage and the biggest part, does not do more sparkles damage. So it still no where near 8.3 Q damage. Recommend testing it out on PBE like i have before making a thread like this where you clearly have no idea what you are talking about which not surprising when you said "i do not play her".

To Summarize, they are rewarding her for playing up the lane more and being more exposed and punishing her more for trying to play a long range snipe on top of nerfing her wave clear even more.

Azadethe1 votes

20% less damage to nonprimary targets really doesnt affect her on minions, and on about 90% of Q champ setups The primary damage is about exactly the same.

Keep trying to grasp for straws.

Malix Farwin1 votes

{quoted}

20% less damage to nonprimary targets really doesnt affect her on minions, and on about 90% of Q champ setups The primary damage is about exactly the same.

Keep trying to grasp for straws.

Not grasping at straws you are just blind to what has actually happened with the champion. She lost more sparked on Q completely which is huge, that is what gave her insane wave clear. to top that Q's splash damage is taking a 20% hit. you are trying to equate it to pre-nerf when its not in the same universe. Again play her on the PBE before you start spouting non-sense. The problem with this community is they listen to a guy who admitted they do not play her over someone with 200k+ Mastery who has actually tested the PBE changes yet i am the one grasping at straws?

The problem to me is it seems that you are devaluing More sparkles damage contribution to Q.

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