I'm Worried That The New Assassin Item Will Turn Out to Be AD Deathfire Grasp 2.0

ArnoldSchwarzens··96 votes·5,934 views

Quote from Riot's post concerning the removal of DFG:

First, DFG tends to make burst patterns even more bursty. The item effectively adds another nuke spell on top of kits that are already designed to have strong up-front damage and aggravates the "whoa, I got one shot out of nowhere" frustration of playing against certain champions. A good example is LeBlanc; DFG adds reliability to her assassination patterns and ends up removing counterplay (she gets to rely on her Q, E, and DFG spells for damage, and can use dashes to reposition or escape instead of making more risky plays).

The second reason is strongly tied to the first; removing this item gives us room to buff champion kits that would otherwise be overpowered if they could use DFG. The most obvious example is Ahri; more 'magey' elements of the character, like her sustained damage or kiting, end up getting washed out because she has so much power to blow up charmed targets with a DFG burst. This ends up forcing us to balance Ahri around her assassin playstyle because there's always the "I can buy DFG" route to consider; removing the item means we can buff her in more interesting ways while still keeping some of her burst because she can't just pick up a DFG and double down on a single playstyle.

I can't predict those things for sure but I feel like the same thing is going to apply to the upcoming assassin item and will cause a balancing dilemma around Rengar, Kha and pretty much every other AD assassin.

140 Comments

Catastrop34 votes

You shouldn't be worried, it is.

Saixos17 votes

I think the big difference is that AD assassins won't have any control over when to use the item, while with DFG mages could just press it when they decide to go in for a combo. Removing the control is kinda like Gnar's transformation here, if Gnar had control over his transformation like Nidalee he would certainly be OP, but as-is he's fine.

manbearswine11 votes

{quoted}

I think the big difference is that AD assassins won't have any control over when to use the item, while with DFG mages could just press it when they decide to go in for a combo. Removing the control is kinda like Gnar's transformation here, if Gnar had control over his transformation like Nidalee he would certainly be OP, but as-is he's fine.

I think you're kinda exaggerating the lack of control over this item.

It requires an autoattack,with the autoattack pattern of most assassins,that's pretty much complete control.

(Either think about it,or watch a replay for zed/talon/rengar/etc,their first autoattack in a teamfight will pretty much always be on their assassination target)

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

Yeah it's definitely controlled and definitely more suited for Zed than anyone else. Which is... bleh whatever. Ofcourse it looks amazing on people like Talon as well.

I only hope it's not the next Cinderhulk. They haven't done that kind of net nerfing in awhile, but still, they have a history of it and hell, they still haven't reverted any Sion or Sejauni nerfs. I fear for the non-Zed assassins that synergize with this item.

TurquoiseYoshi16 votes

The thing about this new item is that it's made to even out balancing for these champions. They now have an item. AD assassins previously used either bruiser items or marksman items. With this, they can now be balanced apart from marksmen or bruisers on their own merits.

Sire Hippington1 votes

just that it is one item in which is shoved the power to 'save the class' as they aren't to happy with their current toys, so it will be mandatory, which isn't neccesarily bad, but at the same time it promotes a very specific playstyle(onetrick-pony sinletarget-assasin) rather than beeing a force-multiplyer that bolsters the entire kit of the user(which kinda is what Rabadons succesfully does sine it first came to life) And that will cause balance problems between assasins.

Voluug132 votes

Considering assassins are by defalt one trick ponies... then the item is good in that aspect.

Voluug131 votes

Yeah well, they will need to fix the extremely unfun and aggravating play patterns of Zed/Talon/Rengar/Kha before even dreaming this item will be balanced...

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

And that can be done now that they have a solid item just for them to be balanced around.

Bladerunner77774 votes

I want this to be my evidence that I played Kha'zix before he becomes FOTM OP:

hi I main kha'zix

Sightless662 votes

10 bucks says he'll still be bad.

Bladerunner77772 votes

{quoted}

10 bucks says he'll still be bad.

Secretly I hope so.

Just give me more tiny QoL updates and I'm happy.

Pale Pirate3 votes

Fun thing is how DFG was first made so you can kill tankier dudes. Just like the new item.

killd0zer8 votes

its worse against tanks. Physical damage resistance is applied twice like Zed

Diananmen Square4 votes

But it does deal damage based on %HP. If you apply the mark and your whole team focuses the tank, the mark will hurt.

Also will reset if the target dies before the mark pops, so you can kill a squishy before the pop then mark a tank.

Auz the Ripper8 votes

If your whole team focuses anyone it'll hurt, regardless of this item

Pale Pirate1 votes

No, a ritoer has said (source: redmercy) that its expected use is to kill the enemy squishy without it, then get the reset and use it to hurt the tanks with the percentage hp damage.

killd0zer2 votes

Source: None Posted

Pale Pirate1 votes

No, source redmercy. Use your search engine.

killd0zer1 votes

Funny I found this instead:

Internally we haven't found that this hurts tanks - "percent missing damage as physical" means that your armor double counts against it (once for the damage that meant you were missing health in the first place, and again against the proc), and flat pen is probably the most misleading stat in the game - it makes you better at killing low armor targets more than it makes you good at killing high armor targets. You buy a chain vest to counter a serrated dirk, you don't buy a serrated dirk to counter a chain vest. -Riot Axes

Damn that shut me up

Pale Pirate1 votes

Well, apparently I was wrong, but this is still what redmercy thought. I gave you the source so mistakes can be avoided, not so they are highlighted for the guy who hates everyone and has to express it.

BasedJarvan4203 votes

Will this new item be countered with QSS?

If that's the case, zed will still be OP with it because you can't cleanse his ult and this in the same fight.

Horrible idea for an item.

Biffolo21 votes

It is removeable with QSS, but the qss would remove both marks.

Diananmen Square2 votes

On the other hand you could also remove DFG's damage bonus debuff (unless it was for some reason marked as a buff) and it eventually got removed.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Which is the same reason we'll see massive re-tuning of this item... and hopefully Zed one day.

I play Assassins a lot and I know this item will be amazing on them. But it's one of those things where you know it's gonna be too amazing on them aka nerfs incoming to champions that don't deserve it with a followup nerf to the item.

Steel Blossom1 votes

Which is why it isnt as OP as DFG. You couldn't remove DFG's dmg, but this item's dmg can be removed.

Biffolo7 votes

Except didn't qss remove DFG debuff as well?

Steel Blossom2 votes

dfg is %maxhp nuke that also increases follow AP dmg to target...the %maxhp dmg can't be removed...

Biffolo4 votes

That was NOT the part of dfg that mattered.

Steel Blossom1 votes

that was....believe it or not %maxhp dmg hurts...

Biffolo3 votes

No, it was the % damage amp that made you get instantly deleted.

Steel Blossom3 votes

well, the damage part is actually very crucial to the instant delete

dangopee2 votes

Stacking this item with item 3153 seems overtuned. You get off a bunch of percent current health damage to get them low, and then they pop from percent missing health damage. That's some strong synergy.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

{quoted}

Stacking this item with item 3153 seems overtuned. You get off a bunch of percent current health damage to get them low, and then they pop from percent missing health damage. That's some strong synergy.

Yeah like with all those autos in 2 seconds that would be broken.

Wait...

Auz the Ripper1 votes

I know it's not really relevant buuuuuuuuut KogMaw

Nahara1 votes

The new item is apparently melee only, so Kog'Maw can't buy it.

Nightshade173 votes

Actually, I believe Riot said it's not melee-only right now, but if they see problems with ranged people buying it, they'll change it to melee only before its release.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkafrldp,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-20T21:50:19.550+0000)

I know it's not really relevant buuuuuuuuut KogMaw

If you really want to wait 2 more seconds when you could just auto one or two more times. Plus odds are you're going ro waste nightfall pretty much immediately as him.

Tails Doll2 votes

Considering it's active and brust dmg assasins have, I can see this being a problem.

Gigahappytown1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkafrldp,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-12-20T21:54:43.193+0000)

Considering it's active and brust dmg assasins have, I can see this being a problem.

Its not a active.

dangopee3 votes

He means the item 3153 active.

Scazie1 votes

I play Rengar quite a bit. I'm not going to pick this up as a first item. Nor a second. Nor a third. By the time I'm at my 4th/5th item I'm either so ahead that this item is freaking pointless, or so behind that it's freaking pointless, you see? Tiamat > Youmou's > Lucids > and then after that it varies. There are crit-centric builds which I don't like. Then there are more AD focused builds, which I prefer. So you'll either pick up a QSS for the utility + Mercurial is hellastronk, a cleaver for the pen/stickyness so that tanks/bruisers don't just spam laugh at your damage, Triforce for the burst, Deaths Dance for the uber life steal, Maw for the utility/penetration/defense and damage, or hell, even a BT. Where does this item fit in? It doesn't. It's like Riot thought "Hey, let's throw in some stats that assassins tend to like, no, no, no - No CDR, chuck in an execute passive that sounds stronger than it actually is - tehehehe, and then just leave it at that, bcuz fck penetration and fck assassins bro, they can built Crit if they want late game burst. =^)" What I could do with is an item that actually let's me kill tanks late game. Because currently no matter what I do they just walk away unscathed, and if they try to fight me face to face then I really have to hope that I can life steal enough to survive until my team finishes him off. =/

Axis the Dragon9 votes

If you think Assassins should be able to quickly kill Tanks lategame you've already got a problem, my dude. That's the ADC's job, not yours. xD

Scazie1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkafrldp,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-12-20T22:22:32.412+0000)

If you think Assassins should be able to quickly kill Tanks lategame you've already got a problem, my dude. That's the ADC's job, not yours. xD

Funny, since late game ADCs are more effective against squishies than they are tanks. =/

ayNigerianPrince11 votes

What the fuck? You think a ~5k health Mundo should get killed faster than the ~1.5k health squishy target? There is so much stupidly in that one sentence alone. I can't even comprehend the ignorance.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

That's the tank's (the rugged Rock) job - to protect the squishies and/or dive them to keep them off other squishies. That's why ADCs/Melee Carries (the frail but powerful Paper) tend to focus them first. Assassins/Fighters (the quick and sharp Scissors) have the mobility to get by tanks and reach the squishies. That's kind of how the whole rock-paper-scissors thing has always worked (it's just the relative strength of Paper actually somehow beating Scissors that's been in question since the pre-season). Bruisers are like Rock Scissors. And stuff like that.

Or what, did you think tanks just walked around and looked pretty? xD

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Does that make Supports the Claw option?

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Supports are the judges that oversee the Rock-Paper-Scissors match, making sure everyone obeys the rules - or dies. x)

alfavhunter1 votes

Here's an idea for an assassin item

Deaths dagger 40 ad 20% CDR Passive-deaths advance (melee only), killing an enemy champion gives you 100% bonus move speed and 100% tenacity for 1 second

Active-deaths reach

Marks a target for death for 4 seconds causing abilities used against them to deal 2% of the targets max hp as true damage and causes them to take 50% of that damage again at the end of the effect, if the user gets to far from the target the effect ends and does not do the bonus damage

The low base ad and CDR make it a poor item for adc, and focuses it more toward ad caster which is a large portion of AD assassin damage, it also gives an escape after kill bonus for melee, again discouraging adc from taking it

This item does not however give AP assassins like fizz much to care for it

It also has its damage delayed a bit to offer more counter play while being also effective at tank killing because of the true damage based on max hp

Spizzle900011 votes

Okay. So. First off, the passive is preposterous. How do you stop a fed Yi, Talon, Rengar, or Zed then? They can just pop in, kill the enemy squishy, and pop out with no consequences. Zed's ult at least has the fact that he can be locked down before he can TP to his shadow.

Then there's the active. So very very VERY many things wrong with that. That is basically a combination of Garen's passive when attacking a Villain and Zed's ultimate. All in one. Just imagine how ridiculously OP Zed would be with this: he uses Death's Reach, then he uses Death Mark and a full combo (which is almost certainly enough to kill any squishy if done correctly, even without the ending damage of Death Mark), but then you add in ANOTHER 50% of that damage. That would basically cause Zed's ultimate to amp the damage by. . .

Well, there's the first 100% of the damage from the combo, plus 50% from Death's Reach, then you get 50% of all of that damage from Death Mark. That's like a 75% damage amplifier for Zed's ultimate. That's insane. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! It also has the damage from the active in the first place which is pretty crazy on it's own, so with that PLUS his ultimate, he can 1v1 literally anyone in the entire game.

No no no no no. Just no.

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