When people complain about Tahm

ReshiKillim·Dec 30, 2015·7 votes·1,538 views

I run down to champion select, pick Tahm, and wait to see if I encounter a player who will verify the Tahm is broken claims.

Okay, Now I'm done clowning around and will get to some of the most important points of playing vs a Tahm.

Don't try to 1v1 him in the mid to late game

DON'T try to 1v1 him in the mid to late game

DON'T TRY TO 1V1 HIM IN THE MID TO LATE GAME

It's a bad idea even for a Gnar or Vayne to do it. Because a good Tahm can and probably WILL catch you and eat your face. Literally.

Treat Tahm like you would a Mundo. You can't really 1v1 him, so gang up and keep him off your carries. Problem solved.

59 Comments

Sneakyy XDDec 30, 20158 votes

Ignoring everything else that's idiotic about your post, you don't think it's a problem that a support can solo people?

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20152 votes

Syndra can be a support. She can solo people. Xerath and Brand are in the same boat as Syndra. Braum and Leona can solo people if they know what they are doing. Morg can solo people. Even Soraka can solo people if they play it right. Blitzcrank can solo people. Thresh can solo people if they know how to do it.

If they play it right, most supports can solo people.

No, I don't think it's a problem that a support can solo people.

Sir YamazukiDec 30, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Syndra can be a support. She can solo people. Xerath and Brand are in the same boat as Syndra. Braum and Leona can solo people if they know what they are doing. Morg can solo people. Even Soraka can solo people if they play it right. Blitzcrank can solo people. Thresh can solo people if they know how to do it.

If they play it right, most supports can solo people.

No, I don't think it's a problem that a support can solo people.

Leona, Braum, Soraka, and Blitzcrank are not soloing people with a full tank build at equal gold and level. Syndra, Xerath, Morg and Brand are mages and would not solo anyone with a full tank build either.

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkYME2EO,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T16:32:27.931+0000)

Leona, Braum, Soraka, and Blitzcrank are not soloing people with a full tank build at equal gold and level. Syndra, Xerath, Morg and Brand are mages and would not solo anyone with a full tank build either.

Thats because they are mages who are made for a solo lane with more money and experience

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20152 votes

Leona, Blitz, and Braum CAN actually solo people at equal gold and level with a full tank build. It's a question of what tank items and masteries they choose for it. A Leona with a lot of CDR giving tank items and thunderlords can lock people down so much that they are literally CC'd until they die. I've had some particularly nasty experiences with this one in particular.

And holy biscuits, Blitz's ult passive does a crap ton of damage over time. Early game that's 100 damage every 2.5 seconds. Mid that's a 200 every 2.5 seconds. Late that's a 300 every 2.5 seconds. Adding that to the right tank build, that's enough to brutalize most ADCs.

And don't underestimate a full tank Braum. With the right tank items he can do a crap ton of damage in a long fight, which it often is if you're 1v1ing him.

Sir YamazukiDec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Leona, Blitz, and Braum CAN actually solo people at equal gold and level with a full tank build. It's a question of what tank items and masteries they choose for it. A Leona with a lot of CDR giving tank items and thunderlords can lock people down so much that they are literally CC'd until they die. I've had some particularly nasty experiences with this one in particular.

And holy biscuits, Blitz's ult passive does a crap ton of damage over time. Early game that's 100 damage every 2.5 seconds. Mid that's a 200 every 2.5 seconds. Late that's a 300 every 2.5 seconds. Adding that to the right tank build, that's enough to brutalize most ADCs.

And don't underestimate a full tank Braum. With the right tank items he can do a crap ton of damage in a long fight, which it often is if you're 1v1ing him.

ADCs would win against them by the simple fact they have low damage individually with a -full tank- build. Part of Leona's damage requires an ally, Blitz gets 0 damage from defensive items and is only useful for Q+E+R in a team fight and does nothing at all in a 1v1 situation and Braum gets very little damage out of building full tank and only has 1 basic ability that deals any damage.

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkYME2EO,comment-id=00050000000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-30T17:00:13.907+0000)

ADCs would win against them by the simple fact they have low damage individually with a -full tank- build. Part of Leona's damage requires an ally, Blitz gets 0 damage from defensive items and is only useful for Q+E+R in a team fight and does nothing at all in a 1v1 situation and Braum gets very little damage out of building full tank and only has 1 basic ability that deals any damage.

They have kits that specialize in different things. If tahm could block incoming projectiles or hook someone over a wall then you would have a great point

Sir YamazukiDec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They have kits that specialize in different things. If tahm could block incoming projectiles or hook someone over a wall then you would have a great point

The discussion is winning 1v1/soloing with a full tank build, I currently do not care who does what. What matters is simply whether they can duel or not, and neither of those supports or mages listed could ever win a 1v1 building purely defensive. Out of those supports only Leona could 1v1, but that requires a bruiser build, and for Blitz to 1v1 he has to build either AD or AP. Then Braum has no hope of winning any 1v1 by the simple fact his kit has no synergy with any damage items because he has non-existent offensive scaling and would be auto attacking for most of his damage... which then comes to the issue of he has no way to stick to a target to do that and would be squishy for building AD.

Although, I understand it's easier to take posts out of context than to properly respond.

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkYME2EO,comment-id=0005000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T17:38:21.032+0000)

The discussion is winning 1v1/soloing with a full tank build, I currently do not care who does what. What matters is simply whether they can duel or not, and neither of those supports or mages listed could ever win a 1v1 building purely defensive. Out of those supports only Leona could 1v1, but that requires a bruiser build, and for Blitz to 1v1 he has to build either AD or AP. Then Braum has no hope of winning any 1v1 by the simple fact his kit has no synergy with any damage items because he has non-existent offensive scaling and would be auto attacking for most of his damage... which then comes to the issue of he has no way to stick to a target to do that and would be squishy for building AD.

Although, I understand it's easier to take posts out of context than to properly respond.

So you are using his dueling potential as a strawman argument? Gotcha

Sir YamazukiDec 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So you are using his dueling potential as a strawman argument? Gotcha

Going to just go with you're trolling, because if you actually read anything you would have known the discussion has been about supports and their ability to solo with boots+5 defensive items. Then again, I believe you're that guy that argued with me about how you're an amazing Tahm player even though you're win rate with him was under 50% and you were feeding. I don't really feel like checking though since it happened a while ago.

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkYME2EO,comment-id=000500000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T17:48:52.128+0000)

Going to just go with you're trolling, because if you actually read anything you would have known the discussion has been about supports and their ability to solo with boots+5 defensive items. Then again, I believe you're that guy that argued with me about how you're an amazing Tahm player even though you're win rate with him was under 50% and you were feeding. I don't really feel like checking though since it happened a while ago.

Actually this thread is about tahm kench in general and the balance of a champion goes beyond their 1v1 potential. If your going to ignore his actual kit and only hyperbolize one strength of his, power to you Dueling is everything is guess...

D357R0Y3RDec 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Leona, Blitz, and Braum CAN actually solo people at equal gold and level with a full tank build. It's a question of what tank items and masteries they choose for it. A Leona with a lot of CDR giving tank items and thunderlords can lock people down so much that they are literally CC'd until they die. I've had some particularly nasty experiences with this one in particular.

And holy biscuits, Blitz's ult passive does a crap ton of damage over time. Early game that's 100 damage every 2.5 seconds. Mid that's a 200 every 2.5 seconds. Late that's a 300 every 2.5 seconds. Adding that to the right tank build, that's enough to brutalize most ADCs.

And don't underestimate a full tank Braum. With the right tank items he can do a crap ton of damage in a long fight, which it often is if you're 1v1ing him.

every ADC does 150 damage every seconds with their AA, that alone outrange and outdamage blitz's ulti passive

braum with full tank items won't do 33% of your hp as magic damage, and won't convert his hp into damage and into a second bar of health

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

and won't convert his hp into damage and into a second bar of health

And neither does tahm

PalPlaysDec 30, 20151 votes

Do you know what Tahm's kit does?

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you know what Tahm's kit does?

Yes

PalPlaysJan 5, 20161 votes

Then why did you just say that you didn't?

KONO RUBICK DADec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And neither does tahm

his ulti convert 8% of his bonus hp into damage in each of his attack and on his Q

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

his ulti convert 8% of his bonus hp into damage in each of his attack and on his Q

Yeah sorry forgot to edit that out, I was only referring to his "second health bar"

KONO RUBICK DADec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah sorry forgot to edit that out, I was only referring to his "second health bar"

he doesn't have a second health bar, but his shield is instant and shield him for all his hp for 5 sec,

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

FYI: Braum has an ability that scales damage with HP.

Braum with Thornmail, his resistance steroid that scales with resistances, and his damage reducer all stack together for you doing more damage to yourself than you do to him. It's not quite comparable to a Rammus, but it hurts ADCs more than you think.

Leona is pretty similar to Braum, except that she doesn't need that damage reducer because she'll just keep CCing you until you die or give up.

Full tank Blitz does a deceptive amount of damage, which seems less than it actually is. With the right full tank build, he can do what Sion can do to ADCs too. Ignore them because attacking him as ADC hurts themselves more then they hurt him.

KONO RUBICK DADec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

FYI: Braum has an ability that scales damage with HP.

Braum with Thornmail, his resistance steroid that scales with resistances, and his damage reducer all stack together for you doing more damage to yourself than you do to him. It's not quite comparable to a Rammus, but it hurts ADCs more than you think.

Leona is pretty similar to Braum, except that she doesn't need that damage reducer because she'll just keep CCing you until you die or give up.

Full tank Blitz does a deceptive amount of damage, which seems less than it actually is. With the right full tank build, he can do what Sion can do to ADCs too. Ignore them because attacking him as ADC hurts themselves more then they hurt him.

the difference is that braum has scalling hp on his Q, tahm kench has his Q and his basic attack

full tank blitz is also squshier has a hard time to stick to carries, his E requiers him to take AD to do damage, full tank blitzcrank also can't take in 1v1 a bruiser like olaf

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

I don't know any full tank that can 1v1 an Olaf, sadly. Tahm gets ruined by Olaf all day, so do Braum, Blitz, and Leona.

But an ADC? Any of them can take on an ADC if it's not a bad matchup for them and they build right.

KONO RUBICK DADec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know any full tank that can 1v1 an Olaf, sadly. Tahm gets ruined by Olaf all day, so do Braum, Blitz, and Leona.

But an ADC? Any of them can take on an ADC if it's not a bad matchup for them and they build right.

olaf doesn't do any damage to health stacker, tahm kench ruins olaf so hard, there are few bruisers who have % hp damage, but tahm kench has 32% of your hp damage each 6 seconds with full cdr, his Q has 260 base damage+ hp damage on it each 4 second, and he has a good base attack speed to apply his ulti passive and his passive.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

Uhm, Olaf does a lot of damage against Tahm. And Olaf's ultimate utterly negates Tahm's 32% of HP and his stun. And Olaf's healing is huge, so is true damage. It amps up very fast against Tahm. Until lategame/nearing full build, Tahm is rather powerless against Olaf.

Tahm can fight Olaf in a long drawn out fight in the lategame when full build or near it, but until then Olaf will make a Tahm player very miserable.

JefftiffyDec 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know any full tank that can 1v1 an Olaf, sadly. Tahm gets ruined by Olaf all day, so do Braum, Blitz, and Leona.

But an ADC? Any of them can take on an ADC if it's not a bad matchup for them and they build right.

Someone doesn't know Olaf's kit. The only ones who stand a chance against an ulted olaf are Tristana , Lucian , Ezreal , Graves , etc. if they have a wall to jump over and olaf doesn't have flash.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

Oh, I was saying that most tanks can 1v1 an ADC if it's not a bad matchup and they build right.

I'm very familiar with Olaf.. I've been utterly wrecked by him too many times not to be :/

EndlessSorcererDec 30, 20151 votes

Taric has been able to solo people late-game ever since they reworked his passive.

Vel'koz support has always been able to kite and murder people nearly as well as Vel'koz mid-lane.

I don't have an issue with supports scaling into the late-game.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

Yeah, Taric is surprisingly strong. I've seen and encountered Taric mid and top lanes that won without too much difficulty. It was weird to look at.

EndlessSorcererDec 30, 20151 votes

I used to spam Taric top back when Riven, Zed, Kha'zix, and Rengar were common top laners. As soon as you finished Iceborn Gauntlet, you won the lane (assuming you didn't feed early) and had about 200 armor.

Good times.

xReadyPlayerOnexDec 30, 20156 votes

It's not just that. Obviously you're meant to play a certain way around certain champions. The problem exists when this champ can ignore building correctly and just run in and kill your adc like an assassin while your entire team attacks him. I've had that happen with me on Tristana... stunned me mid air and swallowed me after that. GG. I looked at his build.... Double Spirit Visage + warmonger... No one with that build should be able to essentially 3 shot anyone. In that time 3 people on my team couldn't do more than 30% damage to him. Granted, no one on my team was able to peel well, but that's another story.

Mecha MaIphiteDec 30, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Granted, no one on my team was able to peel well

then anyone would've been able to kill you and get away

xReadyPlayerOnexJan 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

then anyone would've been able to kill you and get away

I'm on tristana... lol, anyone that can't swallow me, run back to their team while tanking damage and then spit me out for 20% of my hp could kill me and get away... oh wait... that's only tahm....

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's not just that. Obviously you're meant to play a certain way around certain champions. The problem exists when this champ can ignore building correctly and just run in and kill your adc like an assassin while your entire team attacks him. I've had that happen with me on Tristana... stunned me mid air and swallowed me after that. GG. I looked at his build.... Double Spirit Visage + warmonger... No one with that build should be able to essentially 3 shot anyone. In that time 3 people on my team couldn't do more than 30% damage to him. Granted, no one on my team was able to peel well, but that's another story.

If tahm kench can kill you as tristana as fast as an assassin, it's not the champs fault

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20153 votes

No way is Tahm killing you that fast.. Unless you're under 100 HP in the late game. Talon, Kha, or Rengo are great examples of assassin killing speed. Deleted in under 1 second.

fééd l0rdDec 30, 20155 votes

Don't act like Tahm is fine and balanced. He needs a nerf, badly. You forgot to say that it's nearly impossible to duel him in the early game and that he deals a shit ton of damage while building almost nothing but tank items. Damage, CC, Utility (through ult and devour), tanky af and selfheal... I think he needs to lose some of these things.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

Tahm DID get a nerf. He got a good chunk of his attack range knocked off which means a lot.

Actually, there's a good number of champions that can 1v1 him in the early game. And he can't really win against them either. Tahm has to be very frugal with his mana in the early game, which makes laning vs sustains hellish for him. But of course, most people don't play sustains in the botlane.

The problem here is not the champion, it's what is considered meta. The supposed meta is limiting the counterplay choices because "It's not meta" to play a champion that can suppress the Kench in lane.

If you look at the actual damage ratios, Tahm's overall damage output is actually very normal. It seems like a lot because the majority of it comes from one ability, but it's very average.

EndlessSorcererDec 30, 20151 votes

It's probably average since his damage is entirely single-target while most supports are AoE. If you only need to kill one target (i.e. someone diving your ADC), he would deal significantly more damage than most tank supports aside from Taric.

Posui GartDec 30, 20153 votes

You forgot to say that "mid to late game" starts at lvl2 and ends after you get your 6th slot(and if you are not ADC or Fiora-it just never ends). I've played a bit of Tahm top and lost early game only 2 times, first to Shyvana that burned me from inside, and second one to new Poppy that outplayed me with her Qs and Es and a bit of jungle help. All that Riven, Gnar, Ekko, Tryndamere and others had literally no chance to kill me and after lvl6 I could dive under their tower and still kill them.

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkYME2EO,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-12-30T16:01:30.586+0000)

You forgot to say that "mid to late game" starts at lvl2 and ends after you get your 6th slot(and if you are not ADC or Fiora-it just never ends). I've played a bit of Tahm top and lost early game only 2 times, first to that burned me from inside, and second one to new that outplayed me with her Qs and Es and a bit of jungle help. All that Riven, Gnar, Ekko, Tryndamere and others had literally no chance to kill me and after lvl6 I could dive under their tower and still kill them.

Gnar definitely had a chance if he knew how to play the match up

Posui GartDec 30, 20151 votes

Well apparently he didn't, once he became melee and tried to start a fight, I dodged his skillshots and devoured him, after that he was forced to recall and later he just had no damage to fight me

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

Yeah, if he just held back when melee and abused his 3 hit % HP reducer, he'd have bullied you pretty hard.

It's kinda a common mistake for Gnar players against champions like Illaoi, Tahm, Mundo, and Darius

BattleMan69Dec 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkYME2EO,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T16:15:16.607+0000)

Well apparently he didn't, once he became melee and tried to start a fight, I dodged his skillshots and devoured him, after that he was forced to recall and later he just had no damage to fight me

Maybe he shouldn't have tried to fight you in melee but whatever

Posui GartDec 30, 20151 votes

Yeah I guess that was his mistake. He wasn't an experienced Gnar player as well as I wasn't a good Tahm player.

TheCeeJayDec 30, 20153 votes

While I agree, I'm pretty sure if Riot lowered the damage on Devour to a slightly smaller percentage it wouldn't really hit him THAT hard and would probably stop most of the crying about him being OP. Let's be real here, 32% is a bit much, and he does have to work for it but still.

People complain about the passive on his ult, but that's literally the old passive from Atma's Impaler but with higher numbers (although Atma's was max health and not bonus). At the same time his ult is very hard to pull off successfully in a team fight so it needs some kind of passive on it to make it even worth leveling.

People complain about his "two health bars" but any form of CC makes it so he loses access to the shield part of Grey Health.

People complain about his Q being a slow/stun. Well if he didn't have it he could literally catch no one and be useless.

Basically people don't want to learn how to deal with him so they call OP, and he does have a pretty overloaded kit, but all newer champions do.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

What I find sad, is that most people ignore the cute little fact that one banshee's veil on an ADC would greatly reduce their chances of getting caught and reduce the damage taken from Tahm. A little MR goes a long way against Tahm, as basically all of his damage is Magic damage.

What I find odd though, is that people seem to have forgotten that Kalista has a 20% max HP magic damage in the late game, while being a mobile ADC that has a "Smite" that can be used on champions. Looking at the damage comparison, with the right support she can proc it on multiple people in the time it takes for Tahm to eat one.

Yes, Tahm is annoying to play against. But if people wanted to learn how to play against him, they'd find that there's a lot of viable champions that make his laning phase hell for him.

TheCeeJayDec 30, 20151 votes

They also forget that QSS can be used to remove their stacks from his passive so they can't be stunned/eaten or remove them from his belly. I can never remember if it still makes the damage apply or not but still, it gets them out which is one of the most annoying parts of it.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

It doesn't remove the damage, but it does get rid of the CC. Same thing for Gankplank's oranges, but yeah. Cleansing the stacks or not often makes or breaks a teamfight or a lane. Especially now that QSS is really good item to build vs CC heavy lanes early on. AD, LS, MR, and anti-cc. What isn't there to want?

TheCeeJayDec 30, 20151 votes

Probably same reason why Executioner's isn't being built a lot: "Not enuf sik damagez."

JefftiffyDec 30, 20153 votes

I wish people would stop using the excuse that their kit is heavily telegraphed without knowing what telegraphed means in this game. And even then it isn't always an excuse to be stupidly strong.

ReshiKillimDec 30, 20151 votes

Indeed, Tahm is heavily telegraphed. His stacks make it pretty obvious who he's gonna try to nom if he's playing offensively. And his Q shows the hitbox area and where he's licking. His ult shows where he's ulting to, same with TF except Tahm's a lot more obvious in that aspect.

The point is that if people watched the cues and used teamwork, Tahm would be a lot less of a monster in soloqueue. It's why he's not so devastating in pre-made 5v5s. Tahm loses out to teamwork. The less organized the team is, the more powerful his kit is in that situation.