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If we make the assumption that the asian market differs from the western market

Tychusfindlay918··40 votes·13,714 views

Largely due to the internet cafe phenomenon which instills the incentive for quick and short games, then can a game like league SUCCESSFULLY cater to the western and asian markets simaltaneously, or should league be split off into two entirely separate games for the two unique regions?

The western region having a balance philosophy that caters to long term strategic gameplay and the asian region have a balance philosophy catered to hectic action and doom fights that can end the game as early as 20 minutes.

Of course one major issue here would be continuity for the pro scene, but that begs the question as to, at least in the west, who gives a fuck about the pro scene if the game isn't fun?

It's no secret that the LCS is not particularly profitable at least in the west. Hell Scarra noted it's a loss leader. But a proper loss leader would attract people to the game while not alienating the existing playerbase.

This isn't about racism or nationality, it just seems evidently obvious that the western and asian regions have different gaming cultures, and that having a MOBA game trying to cater to both with the same balance philosophy is destined to fail for one of the regions (and currently it seems to be failing in the west in favor of asia since they have a larger playerbase).

38 Comments

GripaAviara12 votes

I don't think this is true really.

When I started Dota and LoL internet cafe were the place I did it and they were very popular. Also LoL had a tremendous fan base in Asia when it was a "long game".

Shorter game philosophy is just riot's BS trying to be CoD or Overwatch. I mean on paper they are right, it will cater to a wider audience, the problem is moba's don't really work this way. If you audience seeks fast thrills it mean they won't be enticed by concepts as farming, objective control, split pushing etc.

What I find mindboggling is that LoL can keep the main mode classic and add a suite of new modes, even with their own ranked ladder, items and balance (yeah: different adapted kits and stats from the main game - they already did it in Onslaught ) where the whole gameplay is wrapped around fast pace gameplay. If by time that would become the most popular mode, they should embrace it.

Why isn't there Hero Defense, etc other popular maps from old Warcraft adapted?

Slythion10 votes

Maybe I'm mistaken but isn't a longer more strategic game preferred by asians (or at least Koreans) and faster-paced fiestas are generally more accepted by western or "American" players

Shen MD10 votes

Asia has a strong internet cafe culture for gaming, short games mean more games in the same timespan, that's why they came with the run it down mid, because for them It's not worth it to fight a game for an hour or more, but to lose fast so they can start a new game faster

Slythion7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shen MD,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkJ1E9nx,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-11-27T12:31:48.047+0000)

Asia has a strong internet cafe culture for gaming, short games mean more games in the same timespan, that's why they came with the run it down mid, because for them It's not worth it to fight a game for an hour or more, but to lose fast so they can start a new game faster

There's a difference between wanting shorter games and giving up easier due to having more incentive to move on to the next. I don't believe there's much evidence to say that they wan't shorter full games over westerners, but rather are more willing to move on to the next one due to cafe culture

Shen MD1 votes

I know both things are different, but both preferences probably are influenced by the same gaming culture conditions

Karn Bishop2 votes

Your not mistaken, most people seem to assume that China= all of Asia while conveniently forgetting that the developers of some of the slowest paced time consuming games come from you guessed it Asia.

Asia loves efficiency which is not the same thing as quick games which is why Starcraft is so popular in korea despiste how long a game can take especially if the skill level is equal.

ScottMurall4 votes

You are Correct. I don't know where they got this idea that Riot made these changes in Favor for the Asian teams when they've been dominating League since Season 2(Even back when the game was at a healthier state). They made games shorter and more snowbally this year then look what happened at Worlds: ONE Asian and THREE Western teams make it to Semi's Lmao .

haaaaaaalp8 votes

Do we know that Asian countries want shorter games? South east Asia was one of the last holdouts in playing dota 1 and that was fueled almost entirely from internet cafes. Internet cafes incentivize teams to forfeit early when games are over (and honestly I wish NA did that as well) but that is different from wanting every game to be short. There is little evidence to support the idea the asian community as a whole want shorter games and the success of the moba genra there, especially in earlier seasons and incarnations of both league and dota, seem to point in the opposite direction.

We focus so much on assigning blame to everyone besides riot when that we seem to forget the most likely explanation, riot is just being incompetent.

Everyone seems to assume that there must be a good reason for riot's changes and since the asian market is an unknown, they gravitate towards blaming them. What if riot is simply just doing a bad job and the asian communities hate the changes just as much as we do?

Haze973 votes

I don't understand why you were downvoted. Your opinion isn't incorrect.

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

The western region having a balance philosophy that caters to long term strategic gameplay and the asian region have a balance philosophy catered to hectic action and doom fights that can end the game as early as 20 minutes.

Actually huge disagree on this. In NA markets, the predominant type of game that currently succeeds/has been routinely popular isn't strategy games but rather fast shooty-punchy games. It's why Fortnite and Overwatch (more so Fortnite) are the rising stars: Quick gameplay, fast paced twitchy-focus and more emphasis on quick games you can play. The equivalent to potato chips.

Internet cafe culture is a big deal, yes, but also bear in mind that games like Starcraft and Warcraft 3 are popular in both China and Korea. While it's easy to assume "Oh so they only like grand-scale strategy games", you have to remember that they have a major thing neither Fortnite nor Overwatch have: APM. I figure most people here know about APM considering the amount who go on about how much they love strategy games.

Anyways, with the way league has gone, APM is increasingly becoming more important with champs. It's certainly no starcraft but if you can't crank out like 30 APM when it matters in a teamfight, you're increasingly at a disadvantage. Which also coincides with the way boards often says they want to play: Slow moving champs with long CDs and more about slow-paced fights than heavy action fights.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

Actually huge disagree on this. In NA markets, the predominant type of game that currently succeeds/has been routinely popular isn't strategy games but rather fast shooty-punchy games. It's why Fortnite and Overwatch (more so Fortnite) are the rising stars: Quick gameplay, fast paced twitchy-focus and more emphasis on quick games you can play. The equivalent to potato chips.

Internet cafe culture is a big deal, yes, but also bear in mind that games like Starcraft and Warcraft 3 are popular in both China and Korea. While it's easy to assume "Oh so they only like grand-scale strategy games", you have to remember that they have a major thing neither Fortnite nor Overwatch have: APM. I figure most people here know about APM considering the amount who go on about how much they love strategy games.

Anyways, with the way league has gone, APM is increasingly becoming more important with champs. It's certainly no starcraft but if you can't crank out like 30 APM when it matters in a teamfight, you're increasingly at a disadvantage. Which also coincides with the way boards often says they want to play: Slow moving champs with long CDs and more about slow-paced fights than heavy action fights.

Starcraft died out in Korea long before it did in the west, and of course now it's just dead everywhere.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

{quoted}

Starcraft died out in Korea long before it did in the west, and of course now it's just dead everywhere.

Eh, Starcraft II did. Most of that was Blizzard taking control of the esport scene (and failing) from the Kespa cup. Plus players liked SC1 more than SC2 yet the problems with SC2's balance didn't get fixed until it was far too late.

chipndip11 votes

Doesn't negate the main point: Western players are NOT the primary market for strategy-oriented games. Western players don't want to think about shit, and that's why it's the Eastern players that don't mind champs like Yasuo while Western players fucking hate him...because you don't want to be taxed with putting more thought into beating him beyond just mashing your cds on him.

mærk3 votes

Think of it like this, NA is the Jocks, Asia is the Nerds. When it comes to getting accepted in colleges, the Nerds are in favor.

Tychusfindlay91821 votes

{quoted}

Think of it like this, NA is the Jocks, Asia is the Nerds. When it comes to getting accepted in colleges, the Nerds are in favor.

Eh?

Shitty analogy that implies one is better than the other. They're different, not superior if that's what you're getting at.

Asia has a larger population and the west has a higher per capita income (so the individual has more purchasing power and can be "milked" more than an individual in asia generally).

I dont think forsaking one for the other is the best route when you can realistically split the game into two separate games and appease both markets.

mærk5 votes

Shitty? Compare the skills of Asians to Westerners and you'll know "shitty".

Tychusfindlay9185 votes

{quoted}

Shitty? Compare the skills of Asians to Westerners and you'll know "shitty".

Whatever floats your boat pal. Having taken class side by side with wealthy chinese exchange students I can tell you they're not that superior to the west. We're all human beings. The United States still vastly leads the world in GDP and the EU is quite strong as well.

By all means, live in your own doomworld fantasy, perhaps consider moving to China or vietnam.

mærk4 votes

[deleted]

Tychusfindlay9184 votes

{quoted}

[DELETED CONTENT REMOVED - ULANOPO]

You're talking about esports? Because esports has nothing to do with the OP. get out of here.

LeBlanc Jameś1 votes

{quoted}

[DELETED CONTENT REMOVED - ULANOPO]

Someone get this guy a bagel.......

macspam2 votes

{quoted}

[DELETED CONTENT REMOVED - ULANOPO]

This exchange is such a good metaphor for what the original post was saying.

OP: I think we have different cultures, lets have a reasonable discussion about it

Maerk: asians are the best

If youre trying to say that asians are intellectual, youre not selling it very well.

Votable Jester1 votes

That isn't even remotely the point though. What company would care more about the skill of its customers more than the money spent by its customers? Now it's certainly possible that people in Asian countries tend to buy more skins (I have no idea), but regardless you bringing up skill is 100% irrelevant.

As for skills, I believe it is more that Asian culture more heavily encourages working hard in school and such than most other cultures. That is to say, they may not be innately more skilled, but just focus on it more. They are also then surrounded by other people working super hard, which could make them feel the need to work even harder and consider such hard work to be normal.

But that is mere conjecture rather than backed by solid evidence on my part. Either way your point was irrelevant.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

I'm going to try to make up for the mishap that was in the other thread, by taking this one a lot slower. The first thing I'd ask is, can you give examples of "Asian balance philosophy" like games that follow it, or the like?

Karn Bishop2 votes

I would argue this is mostly a china problem and that games like league become popular in china becasue they are different but the chinese are weird in that they won't admit this and demand the game be changed to a faster pace until that fast pace bores them and they move on.

Korea/Japan does not have this issue, hell they are known for making some of the most time consuming games like final fantasy.

King Lego2 votes

Let's assume that this is true. Internet cafe is no excuse for Riot to make "too much damage" and shorter game times. As if Asian countries are the only ones who have internet cafes. I mean, can't they afford their own wifi to play on their own? I don't even know. While what you're saying might be true, i think the fact that Asian regions are allowed to AFK without any punishment, as well as throw, int, etc. are possible evidence that what you're saying is true.

Assuming that this is true, then i don't know if I should either: 1- blame riot for this non-sense of Asian catering. 2- blame the Asian countries for "internet cafes". 3- wish i was Asian instead of being Arabian.

As silly as it sound, this might be true af. And that's scary.

Gilgayu1 votes

It is true that there are more internet cafes in asian countries, but that doesn't really means Riot is making games shorter just for them. It's not like Asians don't have wifi at home...

and who tf told you people don't get punished for afk, throw, int, etc...

It is possible, however, that Riot is caring a little more about the asian market because after all, they are the majority of the player base

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

It is true that there are more internet cafes in asian countries, but that doesn't really means Riot is making games shorter just for them. It's not like Asians don't have wifi at home...

and who tf told you people don't get punished for afk, throw, int, etc...

It is possible, however, that Riot is caring a little more about the asian market because after all, they are the majority of the player base

"It's not like Asians don't have wifi at home" Then why spend countless hours in cafes if they have wifis at home? I mean, i often go to network solely when the wifi i have is not enough to support the ping for me, but since the wifi my uni offers is not bad and sufficient, i don't need to go elsewhere (i live in the dorms so yeah).

"and who tf told you people don't get punished for afk, throw, int, etc..." Apparently it's known to be a common thing in the Asian servers due to "internet cafes limited time". Not on our servers at the very least.

"It is possible, however, that Riot is caring a little more about the asian market because after all, they are the majority of the player base" Majority or not, it's no excuse to cater for them. Unless tencent is in the control. I don't even know if i should hate/blame Riot or tencent for this. But definitely not hate/blame Asians in generals.

Gilgayu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pkJ1E9nx,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2018-11-27T23:43:13.953+0000) "It is possible, however, that Riot is caring a little more about the asian market because after all, they are the majority of the player base" Majority or not, it's no excuse to cater for them. Unless tencent is in the control. I don't even know if i should hate/blame Riot or tencent for this. But definitely not hate/blame Asians in generals.

As a Chinese (I came to the U.S. a few years back), I just want to say tencent makes every game worse. I think tencent does control the chinese server more or less, so it is possible that they are affecting the current state of game so they can make more profit for themselves (tencent). If that's why the games are getting shorter... ... ... ...

King Lego1 votes

{quoted}

As a Chinese (I came to the U.S. a few years back), I just want to say tencent makes every game worse. I think tencent does control the chinese server more or less, so it is possible that they are affecting the current state of game so they can make more profit for themselves (tencent). If that's why the games are getting shorter... ... ... ...

I don't even know how to react to this really.

chipndip12 votes

  • Long form, strategic game play

  • Solo queue

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/290/942/c31.png

Horrible Human1 votes

Point one: It is not an assumption. :P

Ahris1 votes

I believe Lucian doesnt quite get nerfed and quickly get buffed, as well as adcs always getting fixed and becoming mandatory role is all due to the adc role being the most broken in game.

It is all most likely because of the Asian market.

Sun2theRise1 votes

I like the game in its current state. Fast intense games.

JustCallMeSPED1 votes

While I do understand the allure for them to split the game into two to appease the separate markets, they would effectively have to double all of their staff that have anything to do with game balance as well as split their physical resources in terms of game hosting. It is an untenable solution, at best.

Thing is, I get both sides of the argument. A large number of people want games to have more strategy, and a large number of people want shorter games. Without doing some kind of actual cross-cultural survey, we have no idea which people precisely want which. But, to use the dreaded term, the NA/EUW board are in a bit of an "echo chamber" simply because we do not have easy access to the prevalent opinions and ideas over in the Asian boards. Or better put, because our boards don't have Google-translated, high-ranking posts from the Asian boards showing up in our NA/EUW board feeds, it isn't immediately obvious whether or not their opinions and ours for what LoL SHOULD be sync up.

I will say that if it is true that Riot is attempting to pander to the bigger market (the same way that another large company recently decided to do by making their next big Diablo game be mobile-based instead of PC) rather than the fans that GOT the company where it currently is, then that is beyond disappointing. And if that is true, the only way to truly make Riot "hear" us isn't to just shout on the boards, but to show it with our wallets. If you can't quit the game, then stop paying for skins and chromas at least. When they see that they are losing their American sales market, they will do what they need to to gain us as players back.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

The western region having a balance philosophy that caters to long term strategic gameplay

lmao

the west is embarrassing when it comes to strategic gameplay. They just like the long drawn out games because it makes them feel like they're strategists when they spend 40 minutes doing nothing.

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