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do tanks really need a roster update?

Critmaster Garen··5 votes·1,590 views

to elaborate, this is the list of champions that riot currently considers to be tanks.

Vanguards

- Malphite
- Amumu
- Leona
- Zac
- Gragas
- Rammus
- Mega Gnar
- Sejuani
- Rek’Sai
- Sion
- Nautilus
- Skarner

Wardens

- Braum
- Nunu
- Tahm Kench
- Maokai
- Shen
- Thresh
- Alistar
- Poppy
- Galio (hybrid Battle Mage)

now i can understand, that they need a general update to their itemization. but riot usually performs roster updates for groups of champions that lack in diversity.

for example, how does Aatrox really separate himself from another diver like Irelia ? theyre both kinda doing the same thing (strategically they fill exactly the same nieche), and there is little difference to how they actually play. this usually leads to just one of the two always being the better version of the other, and they are just simply invalidating each other.

now looking at the list of tanks, i cant see much by way of strategic overlap. the class is actually quite diverse and it seems that each tank is already filling a distinct strategic nieche.

when it comes to strategic diversity, the diver class is overall in much worse shape imo.

which of these tanks actually have strategic overlap?

29 Comments

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

An itemization pass would do wonders for them.

LostFr0st2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pilfZALE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-14T09:35:46.811+0000)

Vanguards

This is the bunch they'd like to work on if they decide on 'tanks.' They have an Aoe group and a mainly single-target group. Worst diversity offenders imho are Malphite+Amumu+Sejuani and Gragas+Zac.

- Malphite

P-- Shield for standing in a bush for 10-6 seconds (or under tower) Q-- targeted slow as gapcloser (because rocks can't dash ofc.) W-- aoe physical damage on-hit, some free armor (dw we accounted for it in base stats) E-- AoE magic damage, att spd slow component R-- Aoe skillshot 1.5 second knockup/can be nuke

- Amumu

P-- magic pen for autoing Q-- skillshot gapcloser (must make contact; 1 sec stun) W-- aoe magic damage, % health component E-- AoE chunking ability R-- Aoe "skillshot" entangle nuke 2 seconds

- Sejuani

P-- armor and slow-resist for fighting Q-- free-targeted gapcloser (1 second knockup (basically a 1sec uncleansable stun) W-- aoe magic damage, % health component+auto reset on-hit E-- AoE chunking ability + slow R-- Aoe skillshot stun/nuke 1.5~ish seconds

- Zac

P-- heals for 4% max health for basically spamming abilities. Needs to chase healing blobs. Q-- 2 second slow W-- aoe magic damage, capped against monsters E-- long distance dash, upon collision gives 1sec knockup (1 sec uncleanseable stun basically) R-- multi-part aoe knockback with a slow (separates enemy team)

- Gragas

P-- heals for 4% max health for spamming abilities. Q-- 2 second ranged slow W-- aoe magic damage, capped against monsters E-- dash, upon collision gives knockback and 1 second stun R-- ranged aoe knockback (separates enemy team)

- Mega Gnar  <-- made using DNA pod
- Sion   <-- recent VGU

Mostly single-target lockdown focused:

- Rammus

could use some sprucing up

- Leona

received an update recently; she's more unique now as THE chain-cc single target champ. She used to be very much like Nautilus, less so now.

- Rek'Sai

They've discussed moving her into the 'diver' category; better thematic fit.

- Nautilus
- Skarner

Wardens <--- this is not the group that they are looking at. Most of these champs were made after the idea behind DNA (DesignerNarrative,Art) pods was solidified and the standard for unique champ-making was higher.

- Braum
- Nunu
- Tahm Kench
- Maokai
- Shen
- Thresh
- Alistar
- Poppy
- Galio (hybrid Battle Mage)  <--VGU before 'tank' roster update
Luna Ather Solis1 votes

{quoted}

This is the bunch they'd like to work on if they decide on 'tanks.' They have an Aoe group and a mainly single-target group. Worst diversity offenders imho are Malphite+Amumu+Sejuani and Gragas+Zac.

P-- Shield for standing in a bush for 10-6 seconds (or under tower) Q-- targeted slow as gapcloser (because rocks can't dash ofc.) W-- aoe physical damage on-hit, some free armor (dw we accounted for it in base stats) E-- AoE magic damage, att spd slow component R-- Aoe skillshot 1.5 second knockup/can be nuke

P-- magic pen for autoing Q-- skillshot gapcloser (must make contact; 1 sec stun) W-- aoe magic damage, % health component E-- AoE chunking ability R-- Aoe "skillshot" entangle nuke 2 seconds

P-- armor and slow-resist for fighting Q-- free-targeted gapcloser (1 second knockup (basically a 1sec uncleansable stun) W-- aoe magic damage, % health component+auto reset on-hit E-- AoE chunking ability + slow R-- Aoe skillshot stun/nuke 1.5~ish seconds

P-- heals for 4% max health for basically spamming abilities. Needs to chase healing blobs. Q-- 2 second slow W-- aoe magic damage, capped against monsters E-- long distance dash, upon collision gives 1sec knockup (1 sec uncleanseable stun basically) R-- multi-part aoe knockback with a slow (separates enemy team)

P-- heals for 4% max health for spamming abilities. Q-- 2 second ranged slow W-- aoe magic damage, capped against monsters E-- dash, upon collision gives knockback and 1 second stun R-- ranged aoe knockback (separates enemy team)

Mostly single-target lockdown focused:

could use some sprucing up

received an update recently; she's more unique now as THE chain-cc single target champ. She used to be very much like Nautilus, less so now.

They've discussed moving her into the 'diver' category; better thematic fit.

in the tank uodate, leona only needs a new passive

LostFr0st1 votes

I agree it would be nice if she could solo lane; she benefits heavily from items/gold.

Could be modified to act the way Shen's old Q did, but it would need to be changed a bit (instead of insta-proc it would need to be a dot/refresh duration on subsequent marks otherwise she'd blow people up with the current scalings and how fast the could apply and proc subsequent marks).

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Jax is a Skirmisher btw, just sayin'

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pilfZALE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-14T09:37:21.382+0000)

Jax is a Skirmisher btw, just sayin'

yea, already fixed it. just replace him with irelia. though jax isnt actually that different to aatrox either. its just the added mobility onto allied units and a stun over a slow really.

they both still do the same thing. its just that jax has 1 or 2 more tools to work with.

which makes Jax simply a better version of Aatrox in the end. unless aatrox stats are strong enough to outperform jax, in which case youd just always pick him over jax when you need an attack speed fighter.

doublelift fg1 votes

Aatrox seems to be a skirmisher to me he lacks of burst unlike divers and looks closer to skirmishers with his kit

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pilfZALE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-14T10:57:27.301+0000)

Aatrox seems to be a skirmisher to me he lacks of burst unlike divers and looks closer to skirmishers with his kit

skirmishers are much more mobile.

most divers just have the tools to gapclose and engage. xin, diana, aatrox, vi all fall into this category.

imo grouping skirmishers in with assassins rather than calling them a third group of fighters is weird anyways.

CrazyBear19871 votes

looks like they a going back to basics first, fixing or adjusting tanks to fit more into the meta.

after that they will decide who needs buff or nerf from the other classes

in my opinion anyway

Ralanr1 votes

I wouldn't say tanks are that diverse. Especially in vanguards since you pretty much choose who is better in general. Why choose Sejuani over Zac?

Escheton1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say tanks are that diverse. Especially in vanguards since you pretty much choose who is better in general. Why choose Sejuani over Zac?

Because she´s more badass. Her passive could use a tweak though.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say tanks are that diverse. Especially in vanguards since you pretty much choose who is better in general. Why choose Sejuani over Zac?

sejuani brings an aoe stun and aoe slows.

zac brings more personal in combat sustain, multiple disruptive knockups, and flyby baron smites. but its really not the same as sejuanis engage.

Ralanr1 votes

Fair. We also have situations where you pick Malphite over Sion because his ult does the same thing faster, at a shorter range (so less planning required) and has no warning.

Amumu also has similarities to Sejuani (to the point where I think he's just the bronze elo Sejuani) where you can swap out one for the other in wanting the same thing(AoE team engage and area of effect dps. Sejuani tacks on extra slows though).

Honestly it's possible that only three tanks would get chosen for heavy roster updates: Malphite, Amumu, and Gragas. The others would probably get minor changes.

Malphite because he's really only used for his ult in professional play (IMO). Amumu is more of a guess based on how they like to touch older champions. And Riot has been wanting to do something with Gragas because he's usually too much of a generalist and is seen everywhere when he's strong. Which is often.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Fair. We also have situations where you pick Malphite over Sion because his ult does the same thing faster, at a shorter range (so less planning required) and has no warning.

Amumu also has similarities to Sejuani (to the point where I think he's just the bronze elo Sejuani) where you can swap out one for the other in wanting the same thing(AoE team engage and area of effect dps. Sejuani tacks on extra slows though).

Honestly it's possible that only three tanks would get chosen for heavy roster updates: Malphite, Amumu, and Gragas. The others would probably get minor changes.

Malphite because he's really only used for his ult in professional play (IMO). Amumu is more of a guess based on how they like to touch older champions. And Riot has been wanting to do something with Gragas because he's usually too much of a generalist and is seen everywhere when he's strong. Which is often.

i mean malphites nieche is clear. hes THE armor tank against ad heavy teams and the only one who actually effectively uses thornmail.

sion has the longest engage range of all tanks, and he has hs health stacking passive, which makes him good against all types of damage.

amumu is kinda unique in that he burns down enemies over long fights with his w. though i can kinda see the similarities with sejuani. but hes still different in his own way with his larger aoe ult. dunno.

LightSword1 votes

i mean malphites nieche is clear. hes THE armor tank against ad heavy teams and the only one who actually effectively uses thornmail.

Rammus : ok

Meep Man1 votes

which of these tanks actually have strategic overlap?

Role- Leap Into a Fight for AoE CC Malphite Amumu Zac Gragas Sejuani Nautilus Alistar

7 champions that all do the exact same thing in slightly different ways.

LightSword1 votes

In fairness Nautilus is more "screw your power carry" than aoe cc, and his (not very) recent change makes his ult more single target focused.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=God of Chicken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pilfZALE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-12-14T14:48:31.324+0000)

Role- Leap Into a Fight for AoE CC Malphite Amumu Zac Gragas Sejuani Nautilus Alistar

7 champions that all do the exact same thing in slightly different ways.

the same way you could generalize juggernauts, that theyre all still doing the same thing. being tanky melee carries who march down the enemy team. those are the traits that define the class. but most juggernauts have their individual nieche.

vanguards are heavy cc focused engage tanks. that is what defines them, and i dont think much will change about that. but within this frame of champion design, they still separate from each other.

Malphite the heavy armor focused anti-adc tank. Amumu becomes progressively more dangerous the longer he sticks to his opponent, by burning down % max hp in an area of effect. Zac instead of frontloaded cc, he is disruptive over a longer duration than the other tanks. he also has high in combat sustain when utilizing his blobs Gragas scatters the enemy team like no other tank does. he can really screw over the enemy formation with a good barrel.

Sejuani Nautilus are probably most similar in that theyre just beefy cc machines. though nautilus has the most reliable engage of all tanks with his ult. sejuani is maybe the only one who doesnt have her own specific nieche but is overall very generic.

Alistar is he even a vanguard? his reliable knockback and insane defense steroid on his ult are what defines him though. hes also able to repeatedly break enemy cc.

i feel like all these tanks are already unique in their own way. riot could support their individual playstiles better by giving them better itemization, but do they need actual reworks? maybe with the exception of sejuani, who could get her own mini rework like shyvana did.

Ralanr1 votes

So Rammus and Malphite are the same thing.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

So Rammus and Malphite are the same thing.

similar, in that they can deal with adc very well.

but rammus defensive steroid also grants him a ton of mr, which makes it generally good and not specifically anti-adc focused. hes better at taking turrets, thanks to his relatively low cooldown ult, and his powerball already seperates him in a way that he roams faster than any other tank.

similar to how talon was supposed to be the roaming assassin, rammus is already the "roaming tank".

i mean there are shen and reksai who are also roamers, but theyre gated by their relatively long ult cooldowns and cant just constantly zip around the map like rammus does.

you surely have played with or against a good rammus at some point. remember how good rammus players have a tendency to always be able to show up as soon as there is a fight around the map. this is especially painful (or helpful) early on where he just always pops up on a lane trade.

he cant engage as well as malphite either.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Rammus is a speedy boy, Malphite is slow af.

Big Lincoln1 votes

yes, tanks need a roster update. Literally all of them are just CC bots with a defensive steroid (bar Sejuani's pitiful 25 armor)

We need changes across the board. To their functions (CC vs higher damage vs high utility), and to their scaling (shifting them and their items to late game power is the only way to make them healthy).

Ralanr1 votes

Wait how would shifting them to late game make them healthy?

Big Lincoln1 votes

because becoming unkillable through mid-game with the slightest lead has given us 2 or 3 different tank metas since season 5, and every one of them was awful for the game. not to mention it makes bruisers obnoxious, too

late game scaling would change that; tanks get to 'feel tanky' when it should matter the most, and nobody else has to deal with the cancer of a Nautilus or Poppy with a little bit of a CS advantage being impossible to take down while they shit all over your carries immediately after lane phase is over

Ralanr1 votes

But in making them late game, they are more difficult targets to kill for late game ADCs.

Plus you'd have to take into account how much more gold tanks would need. Late game carries usually have a lot of kills or go off to farm entire waves alone and quickly. If a tank isn't with their team from midgame onwards then he's denying his most important role to the team.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

just to clarify in general. im not questioning, that tanks need some work.

im just wondering if they need actual full on kit reworks, or if all they need is some changes/additions to their itemization and masteries.

Ralanr1 votes

It's probably a bit of both. Tanks can also be pretty uninteractive in the laning phase as they usually don't have a way to come back in lane after being forced to farm under turret.

I think making tanks more interactive (perhaps more ways to play into their durability than just passive bonuses) would be a good goal. Hitting items and masteries will be a big challenge because we all know how much damage classes love to start building tank when the items are good and rarely does it become detrimental for them.

The tank update is probably going to amp up the current bruiser meta. I'm not going to look forward to all the "tanks OP" threads that will come.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

It's probably a bit of both. Tanks can also be pretty uninteractive in the laning phase as they usually don't have a way to come back in lane after being forced to farm under turret.

I think making tanks more interactive (perhaps more ways to play into their durability than just passive bonuses) would be a good goal. Hitting items and masteries will be a big challenge because we all know how much damage classes love to start building tank when the items are good and rarely does it become detrimental for them.

The tank update is probably going to amp up the current bruiser meta. I'm not going to look forward to all the "tanks OP" threads that will come.

im not going to lie, and im saying that when theyre going through with the tank update, that i hope at least certain juggernauts will benefit from the changes aswell. but that would be the case for either a dive fighter update or a tank update.

Ralanr1 votes

I wouldn't expect otherwise. Most melee champions heavily benefit when tank stuff gets good.

This update is either going to make my favorite class better, or it's going to put them in a worse spot itemization and mastery wise.

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