fioras new base kit looks awesome, but that ult makes no sense.

Critmaster Garen·Jul 21, 2015·82 votes·12,189 views

i dont understand the heal zone. thematically and and in regards to the rest of her kit it makes no sense.

shes supposed to be a melee carry, and duellist not a support. it just looks like it doesnt belong in her kit and she could have something more useful that helps her attack the weak spots instead.

how does she even aoe heal by striking people with a rapier?

here is my idea for the ult:

after she triggered all 4 zones or killed her opponent after triggering at least 1 weak spot, she gets a limited time ult reset like darius and can select her next target within 20 seconds. if she triggers all 4 zones on that, she can select the next one and so on.
if you really want to keep the heal, make it personal only to her and based on missing health every time she manages to trigger all 4 weak spots.

this would keep her going throughout a teamfight. the counterplay is pretty obvious the same, by not letting her strike at all the weak spots to break the chain.

but the aoe heal takes up unecessary power budget for what is basically a support ability attached to a melee carry.

121 Comments

RiotRiot StashuJul 21, 201537 votes

Hey there! I just entered a similar discussion in another thread, so I'm going to paste it here.

Original [Durzaka's] comment:

"Someone on Reddit actually explained it in a way that made some sense to me.

It is the idea of applause/victory reward at the end of a duel that you have won."

And my thoughts on the matter:

"Yeah, this is the thematic tie-in that we were going for. Fiora's duel, or 'Grand Challenge,' is a game defining moment for everyone, not just the combatants. Fiora's team should care about whether or not she's successful and be able to join in the celebration if she is.

Gameplay wise, adding reasons for Fiora's team to care about her in important. Selfish champions can lead to degenerate teamplay experiences, whether they are winning or losing. Accordingly, by adding some team utility to her personal challenges, we can make Fiora a strong 1-on-1 duelist while keeping her team invested in her success. Heal might feel weird here, and I totally get that, but it was the most fitting tool in our box."

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:19:57.982+0000)

Hey there! I just entered a similar discussion in another thread, so I'm going to paste it here.

Original [Durzaka's] comment:

And my thoughts on the matter:

so the problem was basically, how to get teams to help her trigger all those weak spots instead of just blasting the target and not caring if she gets it.

now imagine she would have the ult i proposed in the op.

her team would be invested in giving her those weak spots, because she would deal a crapton of true damage over the course of a fight, by chaining resets.

i get the idea, but i still dont like how this ult wouldnt help her really to contineously carry throughout a teamfight. i guess she wont have resourceless short cooldown abilities like yasuo to keep herself going. and she doesnt have an ability like highlander that reduces all her base cooldowns on a kill.

i fear she will again just turn out to be a one trick pony. able to assassinate 1 guy whos low on hp and cced by her team to trigger the heal. and then thats basically it, because her cooldowns are on cd.

TotN TitanJul 21, 201513 votes

But dealing a "crapton" of damage over the course of the fight is how mechanics of every team-fight works right now. If Riot was looking to make it important that Fiora was in the middle of a team-fight (as opposed to split-pushing or skirmishing in the enemy jungle like she does now) then this healing mechanic is something unique and an incentive to gather together. I think that the healing will be noticeable to the success of a team-fight, but not be so oppressive that it will make team-fights against her unwinnable. Riot will tune it to that effect.

If you tune her ult to only heal her and reset on kills, there is nothing stopping her from picking off a team of 2 or 3 champions that are only slightly separated with those resets. You will actually be forcing a late game, split-pushing Fiora to be met with more than half a team to make sure that you lock her down with enough CC to avoid her ult resets. And if you have a Fiora on your team, she's suddenly just another Tryndamere taking down towers and avoiding team-fights. That hardly seems to garner teamwork and her team being invested in her success.

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 20156 votes

{quoted}

But dealing a "crapton" of damage over the course of the fight is how mechanics of every team-fight works right now. If Riot was looking to make it important that Fiora was in the middle of a team-fight (as opposed to split-pushing or skirmishing in the enemy jungle like she does now) then this healing mechanic is something unique and an incentive to gather together. I think that the healing will be noticeable to the success of a team-fight, but not be so oppressive that it will make team-fights against her unwinnable. Riot will tune it to that effect.

If you tune her ult to only heal her and reset on kills, there is nothing stopping her from picking off a team of 2 or 3 champions that are only slightly separated with those resets. You will actually be forcing a late game, split-pushing Fiora to be met with more than half a team to make sure that you lock her down with enough CC to avoid her ult resets. And if you have a Fiora on your team, she's suddenly just another Tryndamere taking down towers and avoiding team-fights. That hardly seems to garner teamwork and her team being invested in her success.

no, instead shes going to dance around the edge of a fight, wait until someone is low on hp, then ult him and trigger the heal by killing the guy off one weakpoint proc/e crit.

yes, that will be useful and turn around the teamfight. but its not going to turn her from an assassin into a melee adc. its just going to turn her into a weird combination of assassin and support.

BeldoriJul 21, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0011000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:43:00.970+0000)

no, instead shes going to dance around the edge of a fight, wait until someone is low on hp, then ult him and trigger the heal by killing the guy off one weakpoint proc/e crit.

yes, that will be useful and turn around the teamfight. but its not going to turn her from an assassin into a melee adc. its just going to turn her into a weird combination of assassin and support.

Pretty much this, it becomes a really crappy execute ability just to pop the heal and pick off a low target, Olaf has issues sticking to his target to auto them together, fiora is gonna have the same issue ontop of having to run circles around her target cept she DOES NOT have cc immunity like Olaf so shes gonna get blown up

XonraJul 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much this, it becomes a really crappy execute ability just to pop the heal and pick off a low target, Olaf has issues sticking to his target to auto them together, fiora is gonna have the same issue ontop of having to run circles around her target cept she DOES NOT have cc immunity like Olaf so shes gonna get blown up

iamleburkJul 22, 20151 votes

Well her parry now blocks cc... if that counts as cc immunity

BeldoriJul 22, 20151 votes

It makes me think more along the lines of a better spell shield though which isn't bad by any means but her biggest weakness in team fights is focus her before she can gib a squishy, that really doesn't change even if she has the damage to chunk tanks.

My Waifu VanillaJul 22, 20151 votes

She has a much easier to use slow (2 slows in entire kit) and a 50% ms steroid that gets refreshed easily with Q. It will still be "easy" to kite her but it won't be Olaf or Darius status.

Tis a nice dayJul 22, 20153 votes

Why do all healers have to be supports?

MegaRedGyaradosJul 22, 20151 votes

cuz healing yourself is stooped :P

JasiwelJul 21, 201512 votes

I think her ultimate makes sense until it procs a Janna-sized heal. Like, an Atk Speed or Atk buff of some kind would have made more sense. The Heal looks and feel REALLY out of place.

Otherwise I like where it's going and I look forward to having a go at it!

Solarious28Jul 21, 20153 votes

No, the heal is the only buff that I can think that would make sense every time. Say for instance that it granted a shield to her allies. Well, that's great, but what if they are in a position where they really don't need a temporary shield? What if she ulted the last standing enemy on the team and they are no where near Baron, Vileman, Dragon and they already have minions under a turret taking agro for them? The shield, just like temporary atk speed or atk damage would be useless if there is no one to use it on. The heal is something that's permanent that can and will be useful in the future of that match, even if it isn't useful right after she's done. Yes, the heal IS out of place. It doesn't just look out of place, it IS out of place, but it's probably the best they could come up with isn't over powered like a permanent attack or movement speed buff. This is something, that if completed, it's not over powered or temporary. It's useful even if they don't need it right that second.

TotalJerkJul 21, 20158 votes

That sounds really contrived, to be honest.

AbyssphereJul 22, 20157 votes

{quoted}

That sounds really contrived, to be honest.

This is the same guy that said Cass's passive makes thematic sense because "She learns how to use her powers as the game develops" - a justification that implies that everyone from Ahri to Ashe should be late game hypercarries.

I wouldn't expect anything that isn't contrived from his explanations on thematic gameplay.

Mister ModestyJul 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:19:57.982+0000)

Hey there! I just entered a similar discussion in another thread, so I'm going to paste it here.

Original [Durzaka's] comment:

And my thoughts on the matter:

You must have a pretty small box Riot. How about swinging over to Champion Concepts more often? I think the idea of a sword healing is just lazy planning on your part. Are you guys even trying anymore? Here's an idea that would turn Fiora into a duelist over assassin with her ult. Make it so allied champios can help her break the zones. BOOM. How fucking simple is that? Fiora isn't going to be a team player- letting her heal allies isn't incentive... she's a greedy bitch and people who pick her up pick up the solo mentality. But, let her allies help her- and that greedy bitch will be everywhere an ally is.

Mister ModestyJul 22, 20151 votes

Plus it makes more sense than- swords healing? If fiora is exposing weaknesses, it makes more sense that allies can utilize this effect. And like I said, healing allies isn't incentive for a top-lane champ. The fiora is more likely to stick around allies if they can help her break the zones.

OxBakerJul 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-07-21T22:19:57.982+0000)

Hey there! I just entered a similar discussion in another thread, so I'm going to paste it here.

Original [Durzaka's] comment:

And my thoughts on the matter:

I don't know why this is being downvoted. I think that's a pretty creative concept for an ult.

Critmaster GarenJul 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why this is being downvoted. I think that's a pretty creative concept for an ult.

creative doesnt mean it makes a lot of sense. the problem is the part where it heals allies. you always have to rememeber, that each ability takes up some of a champions power budget.

meaning, since she has the ability to heal allies, shes not gonna have something else in its place that might help her do her job instead.

ProeliumJul 21, 201514 votes

Riot read the word "duelist" and thought "Useless in teamfights and ok in duals against stupid people" was the definition.

Radnar the boldJul 21, 201510 votes

I think she is great for solo lane, but her new ult looks like its gonna be horrible in a teamfight.

Frigid Ice StormJul 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radnar the bold,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-21T19:46:30.420+0000)

I think she is great for solo lane, but her new ult looks like its gonna be horrible in a teamfight.

I think her ult is going to be amazing in team fights. You just ult their carry, kill them, you can block all damage with your W, and just set up a healing zone in the middle of the fight which will obviously make your team win.

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frigid Ice Storm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-07-21T19:56:00.560+0000)

I think her ult is going to be amazing in team fights. You just ult their carry, kill them, you can block all damage with your W, and just set up a healing zone in the middle of the fight which will obviously make your team win.

you make it sound easier than its gonna be.

that w will be very difficult to pull off, since it will only be active for half a second. you will need a couple of seconds alone, to trigger all 4 weak spots on a moving target, that has a support by its side. if you manage to pull it off at all.

{quoted}

That makes her too much like every other melee carry. I like the heal because it gives her a niche.

this passive alone makes sure that shes different from other melee carries. and there arent that many of them in the first place.

imo every melee carry needs some mechanic to keep himself going, after he finished the first target, or otherwise shes going to end up like an assassin again. able to kill one opponent, and then she has to retreat because she blew all of her abilities.

but what bugs me, is that she gets a rework because thematically she didnt work out like intended. they did a pretty good job with her base kit, but how does a support ult make thematically sense for a duellist thats supposed to be great in 1v1?

Saminus MaximusJul 23, 20151 votes

-Ult tank -Deal % health true damage to tank -Tank dies much much faster than normal -Heal zone regens the damage you and your frontline just took as you turn on the rest of their team.

Other than that yea its pretty bad for teamfights.

Simonizer86Jul 21, 201510 votes

Healing with the rapier XD that's a good one Rito! You screw up big time on this one lmao

zFlash96Jul 21, 20158 votes

I remember (back when Fiora's reworks was first talked about) a rioter mentioning her ult reducing all of her CDs to near 0 (and bonus arpen iirc) for a fixed number of casts, so it still gives the feeling of her old ult (dashing around the battlefield dealing damage while being elusive to damage) but more interactive (since she remains untargetable and has to use her abilities correctly for max effects instead of pressing R and watching).

Sorry for the people who worked on that new ult, but it really FEELS like a lazy hasty random idea that was someone had 5 minutes before the rework was announced and that was only kept so the rework won't get delayed.

EDIT: AoE heal to give her «uniqueness» lmao. Her new basic kit is great and unique. Her new ult simply takes away AoE healing from Janna and % health true damage from Vayne (that should definitely be a Vayne-only thing).

Craft ZeppelinJul 21, 20157 votes

I agree on that, like moving around a person in a teamfight is near impossible

XonraJul 21, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-07-21T20:11:29.228+0000)

I agree on that, like moving around a person in a teamfight is near impossible

She is going to be serious peel bait, making it even harder. Just one Alistar headbutt away, for example, and there goes that ult.

NullDragonJul 21, 20151 votes

Except she parries the headbutt, stunning her target and half their team + alistar for 1.5 seconds and staying where she is.

Her W is 0.75 seconds of parrying all damage and hard CC. She wants to be peel bait.

XonraJul 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Except she parries the headbutt, stunning her target and half their team + alistar for 1.5 seconds and staying where she is.

Her W is 0.75 seconds of parrying all damage and hard CC. She wants to be peel bait.

So the parry is just never on cooldown, allowing her to avoid any form of CC and displacement ever? No, I didn't think so. You make it sound like she is immune to CC with that whole, less than a second immunity, as if the entire enemy team will only have one person with only one form of CC at all.

You are in the wrong meta if that is your assumption :P

NullDragonJul 22, 20151 votes

If the Alistar on their team is what you're worried about, and you parry the headbutt, well.

You don't really need to worry about it again for about 8 seconds, do you?

My Waifu VanillaJul 22, 20151 votes

We're in tank meta with mages mid. There is way more cc on a team than an Ali headbutt and she can only stop one. Absorbed the headbutt? Cool. Take a gragas body slam instead. You may not have to worry about a headbutt for 8 seconds but you also won't have your W again until that time so you will just get annihilated by any other single target cc or aoe cc such as a sej ult.

NullDragonJul 22, 20151 votes

You could time the riposte so you ignore both the headbutt AND body slam, or use Q to dash out of the way of the body slam.

Or I guess if they're really dedicated, just die to their teams coordinated CC efforts and then have the other four players on your team curb stomp them while all their CC is down? Are you trying to 1v5 or something in this hypothetical situation?

Tiniest TurtleJul 21, 20157 votes

I think she should also ignore unit collision while she has her passive or ult speed boost to at least help with maneuvering around her target.

DogshítPlayerJul 21, 20151 votes

... i felt like she became like Quinn..am i wrong?

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

... i felt like she became like Quinn..am i wrong?

no, fiora has to hit her opponents from a specific direction, and not just auto them in general like quinn.

tbh i dont know how shes gonna be able to pull that off with her q as her only mobility tool.

instead of an aoe heal they should have her ult jump to the next target. basically after she triggers all 4 passives on her first target within a certain time, and kills it, the next target becomes vulnerable and gets 4 zones and her base cooldowns reset.

SorgklaanJul 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-07-21T19:49:14.169+0000)

no, fiora has to hit her opponents from a specific direction, and not just auto them in general like quinn.

tbh i dont know how shes gonna be able to pull that off with her q as her only mobility tool.

instead of an aoe heal they should have her ult jump to the next target. basically after she triggers all 4 passives on her first target within a certain time, and kills it, the next target becomes vulnerable and gets 4 zones and her base cooldowns reset.

That makes her too much like every other melee carry. I like the heal because it gives her a niche.

Simonizer86Jul 21, 20152 votes

I don't think she will be an ad carry anymore...she will be an assassin who is only good in 1 vs 1 now that all her teamfight ability is gone...

Tiniest TurtleJul 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't think she will be an ad carry anymore...she will be an assassin who is only good in 1 vs 1 now that all her teamfight ability is gone...

Eh, what can you say? She's a duelist. She's only supposed to be taking on one person at a time and you have to admit this kit makes her pretty damn good at that if you can pull it off.

XonraJul 22, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Head Over Heals,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2015-07-21T21:10:49.707+0000)

Eh, what can you say? She's a duelist. She's only supposed to be taking on one person at a time and you have to admit this kit makes her pretty damn good at that if you can pull it off.

There are still way better duelists, I hate to say.

The new GP for example will wreck her

There are some improvements in her kit, but they are far from "Game changing" as far as making her so much better. Her ult was actually better (from the perspective of the Fiora, though annoying for the opponent) previously. I've gone from "deal with her kit, hope her ult doesn't kill me" to "her kit is a bit annoying, but just CC her and her ult simply won't work" and I'm not scared of her even a little.

Her ult was the main reason she was so annoying because she would snowball and wreck multiple people. Now? Meh. She can't team fight anymore and her ult is really easy to avoid as she has to completely run a circle around someone without being killed her CC'd.

DogshítPlayerJul 21, 20155 votes

NO dude im saying like.. that indicator if it shows up on any random side for fiora to hit their weak spot then.. the positioning to hit them may not be good to go after and get it isn't like in the video we saw the weak point can be on the enemy champs back.... Are u really gonna walk around them oooorrr... farm?

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

NO dude im saying like.. that indicator if it shows up on any random side for fiora to hit their weak spot then.. the positioning to hit them may not be good to go after and get it isn't like in the video we saw the weak point can be on the enemy champs back.... Are u really gonna walk around them oooorrr... farm?

i think in that case you can trigger it with your q instead of walking around. it proabably triggers a weak spot even if its on the other side. and if the generation of weak spots isnt random, it then should give you one in range.

im really more concerned with that ult.

Simonizer86Jul 21, 20153 votes

The problem is that now the q have a way more lower range then before and only one shot instead of 2....

Tiniest TurtleJul 21, 20151 votes

Well it does do a TON of damage to a single target. Look at lux's hp go! <XD Like they said the wanted to add a bit of utility to Fiora so that's partially why why they chose a heal field. Every other aspect fits her deepest theme, zoom around your target attacking weak spots for extreme chunking. The heal doesn't really fit but it does give her and her entire team an edge when it comes to duelling or team fighting, respectively. So I think it's fine and does somewhat adhere to the duelist motif. Also, FIRST AOE HEAL IN THE GAME!

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Head Over Heals,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=phVEbrEQ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-21T21:09:08.282+0000) Also, FIRST AOE HEAL IN THE GAME!

Janna and technically Soraka

its still stupid. i dont like it. it doesnt fit her theme and doesnt help carry throughout a teamfight.

she doesnt need this type of team utility any more than a ranged adc or an assassin would need it. if the heal was limited to her, or it was a personal shield, then they would have room to give her something more to her fight her opponent instead. like ignoring unit collision, or ability resets. it would be a different story.

NullDragonJul 21, 20152 votes

It fits her theme plenty. She wins a duel, she inspires herself and others to victory.

Critmaster GarenJul 21, 20158 votes

{quoted}

It fits her theme plenty. She wins a duel, she inspires herself and others to victory.

and then she goes home apparantly, instead of taking on the next opponent, because she doesnt have her ult available.

TheFirstGokunJul 22, 20151 votes

Why would she go home? They're now fighting 4v5 and Fiora still has tools that help her roll other champs out. Plus, after that epic duel, her entire team is pretty much full health again. Most likely victory scenario is that they have both a health and champion advantage thanks to her ult and can now turn this fight into a dragon, turret or baron. The heal is an amazing help for her team and an incentive for allies to support her decisions.

My Waifu VanillaJul 22, 20151 votes

Except her damage is lackluster without ult as well as lacking the permanent ms boost during ult so she will basically make a fight a 4.5 v 4 IF she can even assassinate the first target in the first place.

TheFirstGokunJul 22, 20151 votes

She deals consistent % max health true damage and can ignore hard cc. Sure, she doesn't delete everybody at once like old Fiora, but she is still helpful in a teamfight regardless. Besides, with that kind of health difference teamfight #2 is already half over before it starts.