@Riot, Are the useless Summoner Spells going to be looked at in Pre-Season Six?

kJs··59 votes·4,098 views

I'm talking about: {{summoner:2}} summoner 13 and to a certain extent (these aren't actually useless) summoner 21 summoner 1 summoner 6

{{summoner:2}} is completely useless when you have item 3342 and item 3363 which does the exact same job except better with the case of the Farsight Orb. It would be nice for this summoner spell to be stronger as to widen the variety of spells that long range mages and poke champions use. I can see possible viable use for it on Xerath ,Caitlyn, Jinx and Ezreal, Ashe has her own Clairvoyance built into her own kit so she can't count. The other four would benefit greatly with this summoner spell if it was more useful in its job but that's being very generous. It's not a particularly amazing skill to have compared to the others so I think it would be easier to delete it the way that Revive was taken care of.

summoner 13 is just not worth it when items geared towards mana regeneration is taken. This Summoner spell falls off completely past the lane phase and it should be buffed to provide benefits not only for mana users but also for every other resource using champion aside from health costing abilities. The usefulness of other summoner spells completely shadow this spell.

I see summoner 21 being used by Azir players but that's really it. Immobile mages make the most use of it but with the coming Flash + Teleport mid meta I don't think it's going to be viable anymore once people learn to ignore Barrier users completely. A suggestion that I read here in the Boards a few weeks back is to turn Barrier into an anti-burst/anti-assassin spell for yourself. As in, upon activating Barrier damage you take cannot be amplified by both Armor Penetration and Magic Penetration. I can see this work with bruisers and tanks, not just on squishies. Another idea that I had was to reward the Barrier user with more shields the more attacks/DoT he/she takes during the spell duration. As in provide X(scales with level) shield per attack that you receive.

summoner 1 and summoner 6 are niche picks at the moment. When faced with heavy CC team composition an ADC can opt for Cleanse over Heal, the latter could be taken by the Support. The most common champion that I see spell with is Vayne because of her need to be closer in range that other ADC to deal effective damage. Ghost is more popular than Cleanse usually taken by "Juggernaut" champions like Udyr Olaf Hecarim, Olaf and Hecarim who have extreme synergy with the spell becuase of the nature of their kits. Udyr can quite as easily be effective with summoner 4 , the decision between Flash or Ghost mostly lies in the playstyle of the player when it comes to Udyr.

EDIT: I moved barrier to the "not actually useless" group. I just don't see Barrier being taken at all, in my rank of Silver IV.

72 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer26 votes

Barrier is still used often. As you said, immobile mages make the best use of it. I take it on Xerath, and it has saved my life and gotten my a few kills several times

1000angrybees1 votes

Barrier is great on somewhat off meta laners like Sona, Nami, and Lulu. Most support/mage champs make pretty good use of it, actually.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

Thing is it's amazing on paper but not great in practice. Sure it will deny your enemy laner a kill, but teleport can let you secure 2 kills at bot lane, dragon, protect or destroy a turret, etc.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

That's why it's best on mid lane, particularly long range mages (I.E. Xerath). You have the range and the pushing power to make a gank bot lane, and you are close enough to dragon that you should never really need to TP. Another thing of why it's good on immobile mages is because barrier counters ignite better than heal does, which is helpful against assassins

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

It's definitely better than heal but just not as reliable as teleport. If you're low hp you can recall as your team starts or tries to take dragon. You can tp in with full hp from anywhere on the map, whether you just recalled or you're bot lane after you did a gank, and now need to get back to med before the enemy takes your turret, etc etc. If you take barrier the enemy will just farm and roam because of their low kill pressure. It doesn't really solve anything unless you want to force a farm lane that nobody will win.

Also the biggest issue with barrier is that exhaust can often be better. 40% damage reduction and AS reduction + the MS and resistances shred makes it both offensively and defensively superior to most matchups. The exceptions would obviously be someone who has burst that can be pulled off almost instantly.

Again, barrier isn't bad, just not good enough to be used over exhaust or tp.

Gorgannan1 votes

TP can also be whiffed, which unlike a barrier whiff, will sometimes directly kill you,or put you in bot lane with no tp to get back and their vlad/nasus pusing on your turret.

Can also be cc'd out of. I think a good balance would be buff the reliability that barrier brings, so it's on the mindless ease of use of heal and call that the tradeoff for being lower skillcap than tp. Maybe buff the bubble duration another second, or do the opposite of exhaust and give some tiny resist buffs during it, so the bubble is deceptively hard to break.

FistOfSharkiesha1 votes

True but it's not horribly difficult to TP from a good spot. Usually just getting out of the enemy range of vision is plenty, but you always have a turret. I've even baited the enemy into tower diving and cancelled tp to stun them after they took turret agro. Again, not disagreeing, you bring valid points, it's just that barrier fulfills 1 purpose and that is to prevent yourself from dying. Exhaust does it better albeit slightly less reliably, heal restores health and gives a MS boost giving it 2 valuable purposes. TP gives you far more map control and pressure.

A few threads have been brought up about how barrier should have the MS boost, not heal. It's absolutely bizarre that heal heals 2 units and gives MS to 2 units while barrier just barely gives a slightly stronger shield than heal's potency. Basically heal is 4x as effective as barrier when utilized properly.

Keevalroy15 votes

I just want Revive back.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Why?

Keevalroy7 votes

I never played Karthus without it, to me it was essential. Revive Teleport Karthus was the most fun combination I've played in League, and Riot's contradicting reasoning to remove it makes the loss that much more painful. I used to like playing Karthus, but now that Revive is gone, I have no desire to play him anymore. I've tried twice, but both times it felt so awkward, boring, and utterly disappointing to play.

Trading Aces9 votes

Vayne "closer in range that other ADC". 550 atk range. Only 10 ranged champions stretch past that and only 4 are adcs that aren't reliant on an short term active. Not counting Jinx cause she gimps herself for it.

snaps back into discussion

Some solid points.

DokiDokiTodoroki7 votes

550 range of influence. Maximum. Which means that at least 75% of champions out range her in some way, whether its mages or adcs or tanks or bruisers.

Back to the discussion. The only one spell I've really seen to be useless is clairvoyance. the others have their own niches, aram being one for clarity.

kJs1 votes

You have to keep in mind that she doesn't really have abilities that go past her 550 range. A lot of other ADCs do, even Lucian has his W, Q and R to influence fights past his 500 Atk range. Range doesn't just mean autoattack range, it also includes ability ranges as well.

Vayne has the lowest range out of all the popular ADCs.

DeynaTaggerung4 votes

I believe Riot said they're planning to take clairvoyance out of the game entirely in the pre-season(I recall seeing a red post on it a little while back)

The others should definitely get a once over

Remlap12233 votes

Barrier is fine, it could use a rework to make it more interesting, but its fine health wise.

Ghost is fine too, but its also a boring summoner spell that could be made more interesting.

Clairvoyance just needs to be removed from the game. We have scrying orbs that do basically the same thing, but better, and Ashe's E makes it obsolete.

Clarity needs a use outside of restoring mana. If that happens it'll be good.

Cleanse is dogshit. It needs a CDR as well as CC IMMUNITY for 3 seconds.

TurquoiseYoshi9 votes

Cleanse is actually a pretty nice niche counter to champions like TF and Annie. Maybe if it counters all basic CC (including knock-up and suppression), then we could actually see it being good.

Remlap12232 votes

It doesn't counter all CC, so it isn't good. Plus giving tenacity is horrible, just have them be CC immune for a short while.

Silmaril7 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't counter all CC, so it isn't good. Plus giving tenacity is horrible, just have them be CC immune for a short while.

They already tried that once, long ago. It was broken af and lasted all of one patch.

Tryndamere Katarina and Nunu destroyed almost every game they were in, it was nearly as bad as League of Cleavers.

Chespin20131 votes

I'm all for Cleanse being able to get yourself out of knock ups and suppressions since there is little to no counterplay to those kinds of cc in the game anyway and could be used a lot more often for ADC's.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

Eh, probably, but it would still be a neat mechanic.

Lt Cuddles1 votes

It needs that buff really, and tenacity should reduce knock-ups and knock-backs....somehow. https://38.media.tumblr.com/1334f433e24c6a5e2442f6685a2020b6/tumblr_ni3i0sLq6L1rbnx7io1_500.gif

MAN OF INTELLECT1 votes

I have seen Siv HD use Claivoyance for AP snipe Ezreal. Looks legit.

kJs3 votes

Yeah. I saw a few Nidalees take Clairvoyance to help them Q poke but that was before her rework where she didn't need to jump in melee range to deal maximum damage.

RisenDarkKnight5 votes

You can just use scrying orb though for almost the same benefit.

CHOPSTICKUHH2 votes

What about any new summoner spells..

Meep Man2 votes

I wanna come up with some possible solutions myself just for fun:

summoner 21 This spell fell off as the ADC Summoner Spell when Heal was changed. Due to Heal's way of function, I dont see it coming back as the ADC Summoner Spell without knocking out Heal, which doesnt solve anything. Instead, it should be changed to be able to be used in another Role, specifically Support or Top Lane. My solution is allow Barrier to be used on another target besides yourself. That way, another champion can use it to protect an ally, currently only able to be done with Heal. Its anti-burst Summoner Spell. Now some people will say "But Assassins will just be nerfed due to this!" ON THE CONTRARY, this will give a good way to counter Assassins, which warrants Assassin buffs. Its up for everyone.

{{summoner:2}} There is no way to have this in the game at the same time as item 3342 . This or that. Choose. Whichever one stays still needs to be buffed though.

summoner 13 I heard this idea and I actually really like it. Make this spell reduce the cool downs of spells by a set amount, down to a minimum. So like a 5 second reduction all spells, reducing the cool down to a minimum of 1-1.5 second(s). Maybe make it also refund 75% of all mana/energy/health/Fury spent in the last 5-7 seconds. That will make it a good spell.

summoner 1 Make it cleanse suppression and then make it reduce the duration of future crowd control by 100% instead of 65%. When I say 100% I mean it still applies but does nothing. You can still interrupt spells with a stun, but it wont do anything except stop your movement and channels.

summoner 3 This hardly needs any changes.

summoner 4 I liked the idea of making you unable to go over walls with Flash but slightly increase it's range and maybe increase it's cool down very slightly.

summoner 6 This spell is pretty solid. Maybe make it give slow reduction during it as well, but its still pretty solid.

summoner 7 summoner 14 summoner 11 Solid.

summoner 12 Increase the cool down to 360 seconds if not used on tower from 300 seconds. Then its good.

My Waifu Vanilla4 votes

Flash is necessary to go over walls for smite steals and the ability to actually chase people that can go over them inherently. I do think flash at least needs a pseudo blink dagger clause that you simply can't use it if you have been in combat with a champion for X seconds that way you can still escape ganks and such but it won't save you AFTER they blow all their cc.

Hemulen Magi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ph3QuuEV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-10-06T17:33:33.732+0000) There is no way to have this in the game at the same time as item 3342 . This or that. Choose. Whichever one stays still needs to be buffed though.

I don't understand this logic. You can't imagine anyone ever wanting to be able to check more than one place, extending the area that they check, or having more vision uptime if they manage the multiple cooldowns? If they were both buffed so that people started using them on their own, I could definitely imagine that some people would take both to really specialize in global espionage.

To me, this is like we can't have summoner 6 and item 3009 in the game together. They are pretty similar, especially if ghost gets a slow reduction like you suggest.

ahferroin71 votes

On top of that, {{summoner:2}} is global,, scrying orb isn't.

Fowus2 votes

I know you've already said summoner 21 is used but I just wanted to point out it works really good with Lux and when people try to dive you

KafkaBrother2 votes

my experience with summoner 13 ... i was mid lane running no mana regen .. just straight damage... so .. i took summoner 13. the jungler called me a troll and came to my lane just to take cs.. didnt share the blue buff (i know you junglers say the blue buff is yours but in this situation if i had it my lane would have been deleted easily) basically everything the jungler could do besides feed he did to me to punish me for taking that summoner spell.

i like it. it would be nice to have it scale later or have some extra power just because i would actually use it more. but my experience with a salty jungler makes me take the blue whenever i play the game .. in any role and not give 2 poops that i make them QQ.

moral of this story. if a person likes something, do not poop on them or they will take everything you love when they have a chance.

FatalHalo2 votes

Making ideas for fun that would buff the less used summoner spells

{{summoner:2}} : Reveals a small area of the map for your team for 5 seconds and reveals enemy champions in that area for 5 seconds. (Doesn't affect champions that are invisible) (Instead of the enemy reveal for 5 seconds, it can instead place an invulnerable ward for 5 seconds)

summoner 13 : Restores an initial 20% of your maximum mana and 10% of your maximum mana per second over 6 seconds. Allies around you gain 5% maximum mana per second over the duration.

summoner 21 : Shields your champion for 115-455(+5% max hp) (depending on champion level) for 2 seconds.

summoner 6 : Your champion can move through units and has 27% increased Movement Speed for 10 seconds. Your champion is immune to slow for the first 2 seconds then gains (0.1 of movement speed)% slow resistance for the remainder of the duration.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

But how will trolls play Disco champions if Clairvoyance becomes useful?

Slamurai Jack2 votes

Anyone who says that item 3363 does the same job as {{summoner:2}} but better has clearly never used CV. Orb has only 2500-4000 range, CV is global. Orb only reveals in bushes directly under it. CV reveals all FOW inside of it. CV has a far higher vision radius than Orb. CV has a cd of 60 seconds all game long while Orb is 120 and 90 when upgraded. CV is available from level 1 and gives you global vision at the most important part of the game: early laning phase when junglers have the most influence on the game. CV allows you to have either an upgraded stealth totem for even more vision or a sweeper for vision denial. Yes, you have to give up a summoner to get CV but I definitely recommend it on champs that don't particularly need a second summoner.

Gorgannan1 votes

would agree but that 1 hp visible ward ACTUALLY isn't as bad as it sounds. If you have to trink a bush that is not heavily trafficked, then it won't be destroyed quick;y, and while it doesn't spot anyone, it will let you know where they aren't, which is great to me. If you were much higher than plat I could see the added benefit of clarvoyance though.

Akesgeroth2 votes

summoner 13 is a weird case. A strong mana restore early can be very strong while laning, but it falls off super fast. The only characters who could use it late game are mana hungry tanks, and they'd still rather get other spells. It's certainly not worth summoner 4 's spot, and if the character is jungling it's not worth summoner 11 either. Even for laning mana hungry tanks, summoner 3 is still a better option as support.

I think what really gimps summoner 13 is that summoner 12 essentially accomplishes the same thing. It's got a longer cooldown, but by recalling then using it, you get to go back to town to buy stuff, and regen your health, AND you get your whole mana back instead of just 40%. And late game it's great for backdooring or countering backdooring.

So, what can be done? Assuming we want to keep it in the game, we have to know what we want it to be. And what it is is a resource/mage oriented summoner spell. What I would do is change it to restore your mana, and for the next few seconds you get an additional 40% CDR which can go over the cap and your spells cost much less mana.

Champion Skin4 votes

What I would do is change it to restore your mana, and for the next few seconds you get an additional 40% CDR which can go over the cap and your spells cost much less mana.

The problem with this is that it could break the game with any flat CDR.. well of course it also depends on the duration of the buff (Oh and it actually doesn't break Ryze since his CDR from his passive is based on the cooldown on his Q)

Like Ezeral Q would have 0 seconds cooldown if it hit anything (0.8 seconds if it doesn't)

Taric stun has 2.8 seconds cooldown (at max rank) and it will be reduced by 2 seconds if Taric AA's and uses his passive...

And stuff like that

Karthus ult with 40% CDR + this would have an ult with only 32 seconds cooldown (at max rank) though I doubt he would get through laning phase with clarity

Akesgeroth2 votes

I was mostly just giving an example as to what could be done, not saying this specific thing is the solution. Basically, activating Clarity would also buff the user in some way.

kaltenashes1 votes

i always use summoner 21 and summoner 13 (if my team is most mana oriented champ) in aram =D still {{summoner:2}} seens outdated, before the trinkets were born, i had {{summoner:2}} on supports

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Cleanse and barrier are still really useful IMO. Barrier is usually better than heal mid lane, because you usually take it against a scary assasin who will be running ignite. Cleanse is really good on adc/mid against certain picks (Twisted Fate, Ashe, Sejuani, Elise, etc.).

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

You're right that clairvoyance and clarity are completely useless. Why take clairvoyance when you can just get scrying orb for free?

Champion Skin2 votes

Also why take clarity when there is teleport Teleport kind of allows you to get your mana and HP back and buy stuff... and on top of that it is also much better later on in the game (when you usually have some mana items)

Gorgannan1 votes

Clarity: increase the CD because my version is OP.

Make it a 2 second duration TF ult global vision. Only on champs obv or it would be used in competitive for insane counter jungle potential.

ahferroin71 votes

The point of {{summoner:2}} is so you don't have to get item 3342, and unlike scrying orb, it's global (which is very significant sometimes). The most common use for it I see is a support taking it and using it to check dragon without leaving lane. summoner 13 Is useful for some champs (some tiems you can't afford to buy mana regen), but I agree it should work with mana and energy (there is absolutely no reason it should work with any other resource, otherwise you will start seeing people like rengar, yasuo, and rek'sai taking it). summoner 21 isn't used much in normals and ranked, but I see it somewhat frequently in ARAM on champs like garen (it's actually really useful for him because damage to shields doesn't reset the cd on his passive). summoner 1 I almost never see except occasionally on Volibear summoner 6 is also useful on Alistar (playing him well is all about positioning), Singed (cause it let's him lay a longer poison trail), Nasus (he has no good escape, and it also synergizes well with wither), and a number of other champs.

alfavhunter1 votes

Change clearavoicne to reveal all enemy champions for 2 seconds (like tf ult) and it would be a good summoner for map awareness

BastionKross1 votes

summoner 13 has a solid place in ARAM. That's about the only mode I see it in though.

As for summoner spell changes, what about passive summoner spells? These spells could give your champion a constant bonus all game long, but don't have any activated ability. Maybe {{summoner:2}} could extend the sight range of your champion, or allow them to see in bushes while slightly outside of it. summoner 1 could give some tenacity that doesn't stack with the kind from items. summoner 13 could increase mana regen by a flat/scaling amount. Things along those lines.

King of Mongoose1 votes

2016 season*

Skyslayer6301 votes

It is such a trivial matter to fix this. Just keep slowly buffing the summoner spells until they reach a point where they are used by >15% of players. For CV, reduce the cooldown, or maybe make it place a 30 second ward anywhere on the map. If that is too op then reduce it to 15 seconds. For clarity, allow it to fill your mana past 100% and temporarily raise your max mana. Certain champs would be all over that. For Revive, have it passively reduce your gold bounty by 50% or something, while it is not on cooldown. Just keep adjusting these until you hit the usage numbers you want. I truly do not understand why patch after patch they arent tweaking these at all. Flash has something like a 90% usage rate. When that gets down under 50%, we will know the summoner spells are more balanced.

53872273_DEL1 votes

What about summoner 13 onZyra in ARAM.. I take summoner 32 summoner 13 almost everytime I get a mana based champion.. I don't mind going hard in the paint. I took barrier once and i paid the price for not having ignite or clarence (clarity) Barrier to me is useless. Because the way people play in bronze is FULL RETARD especially Division 2-5

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