is a Marksman as well as a Mage.
Riot, please classify Twisted Fate to have his secondary role be a Marksman instead of N/A. There is no question about it, he has been doing that secondary role for far longer than Azir, I am pretty sure he's the first Mage/Marksman in League.
He has been viable as ADC before as well.
Upvote to show Rito.
TurquoiseYoshi36 votes
Trias0001 votes
FistOfSharkiesha3 votesHer passive is just there to keep her from being wrecked in lane. There isn't a build that exists for an auto attack based Orianna that is better than a standard mage build because her cooldowns are so low. Lulu, Teemo, and Kayle on the other hand are very AA reliant.
Trias0001 votesI saw a pro build Nashor's Tooth on her not so long ago. Also we didn't talk about "aa build better than standard mage build", because that's also not the case for Twisted Fate. Just that it's possible to build them as "marksmen".
kJs1 votesI was thinking more about the ADC idea of the Marksman class but I guess they too can be AA reliant and be effective, just like Azir.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesbut I guess they too can be AA reliant and be effective, just like Azir.
Machine-gun Lulu. fear it.
blueberrypancake1 votes
Is listed as a Mage/Marksmen
WhiskerWow16 votesActually, is the first true Mage/Marksman. Although I honestly think TF and Teemo would make better cases.
CasterGilgamesh1 votesriot doesnt want to support a manaless adc though
blueberrypancake1 votesExplain to me 2014 world Lucian to me then kappa
Carry4 votesThey are atoning for their sin by leaving him in the garbage bin for a year or so before buffing him.
CasterGilgamesh2 voteswell he technically had mana cost just not on dash
Tuss1 votesI think he would count if his W passive proced on towers. TF gets counted since his own W deals damage to towers.
HentRex1 votes Released about a year after TF.
Final Boss Naut6 votesdid you forget our satan? he was classified as one long ago.
Kas1273 votesI think it is quite misleading to classify champs with less than 550 range as marksmen because the word itself impies great range, precision and/or agility.
Lower than usual ADC range + squishy + no instant escape = Mage (NOT marksman). To be a marksman, at least two of those 3 criterias have to be met.
Misleading new players is just cruel. First you tell them it's possible, then in practice you rage at them.
I've played TF enough to know he is not a marksman. He either nukes and kills, or he dies. Same for Teemo and probably other champs (idk).
Olath Quortek1 votesLol... see it's funny... because Graves, Draven and even Urgot are "Marksmen..." XD And maybe we could argue whether or not these champions are marksmen in either their gameplay or thematic but my point is that there is enough inconsistency (especially in secondary roles) to allow for this. Besides, I feel I could argue that it is not misleading because TF does have multiple AA modifiers and this might just help new players to realize and utilize them. I actually feel Ziggs could use it too to some degree... I'd almost even throw Vik in there but... Shrug... Lux and Ori too if they weren't already Mage/Supports. Also, on a side note, Kennen is currently a Mage/Marksmen.
RogueWill2 votesyeah bring back vs 
adc on bot lane!
Kas1271 votesI'm not saying that not having proper auto-attack abilities is a possibility for marksmen. Yes, modifiers are important, but range and survivability, too.
550 was just a number from the top of my head. I'm still new, and I don't really know what the "safe range" is in this game. Plus, Graves has some kind of dash ability, I think.
Again, you went too far with your argument and started to troll for god knows what reason. What does Lux, Ori, and Vik have to do with this? They have no escape, and they suck at auto-attacks.
Olath Quortek1 votesLol your noob is showing... XD and I mean that in the nicest way possible! ;) Lux and Ori actually have very strong AA passives; Lux deals damage with AA after a spell hit and Ori has stacking magic damage on hit. ADC Vik is actually strong because his Q converts his next auto into full magic damage that can still crit making him harder to counter with resistances. Trolly? Yes! But that doesn't mean there isn't some merit behind it! And back to my original point: Riot's current Role classifications (especially secondary roles) are very loose and inconsistent. My point with Graves specifically is that he uses a shotgun and is very close range although yes he does have a dash. He's also gritty... like a marksmen should be? O.o
kJs1 votesIn that case Riven is a classic melee ADC, which I can't really disprove or approve considering how strong she is in soloQ.
For comparison's sake, Melee ADCs are:
They share critical strike reliance. An ability for safety, Master Yi (Q), Yasuo (W and E) and Tryndamere (R). As well as being heavily AA reliant of course. I wouldn't say Riven would be the generic melee ADC since she's not crit reliant and she doesn't source 80% of her damage from AAs unlike the previous three.
Olath Quortek1 votesBut are we talking about ADCs or Marksmen? Honestly I've always thought that "ADC" and "Carry" or even the new "Marksmen" titles were always a bit silly. Like you say someone is a support and that makes sense; they support. You say someone is a tank and that makes sense; they tank things (other than the fact that realistically tanks should deal out high damage from a range if we're going to compare them to actual tanks XD). Fighters fight. Assassins assassinate. And to varying degrees Mages cast spells that are either damage utility or both. But I say ADC... and... what is that exactly? Ohh it's an "attack damage carry" and... what is that exactly? Which is part of the reason they changed it to "Marksmen." So I say marksmen and your like someone with range that shoots things with bows, crossbows and guns... and shotguns... and spinning boomerang throwing axes... and whatever the hell we're going to call Urgot... XD
kJs5 votesAnd it's not misleading to classify Azir as a secondary Marksman because?
Kas1271 votesThat was kind of the whole point of my post. Read last sentence before flaming.
kJs4 votesDo you know what flaming means?
You hardly indicated that you disagreed with Azir being classified as a Marksman. So no one would have ever gotten that. No clarity. I only understood that you think classifying TF as a Marksman is heavily misleading.
The Marksman classification are for champions who are: • Ranged. • Heavily AA reliant.
Doesn't matter if they're great at it or not, Azir is ranged and AA reliant, Jayce can be ranged and is AA reliant and so is TF.
In a slightly unrelated note: Marksman ≠ ADC
Kas1271 votesYou know, I am starting to not even care because you obviosly skipped past my point for the sake of complaining to riot that TF should be named marksman.
Make him marks., make him fighter - I don't give a damn because I played him and I know what works with him. Though, remember that you'll probably see a noob who would try to use him as marks. and you will rage at him at some point.
Come to think of it, I think the whole point of this post to complain to Riot that TF sucks at being a marks. and you want them to buff him.
P.S. My original point was that classifications, in general, tend to be misleading without proper info about what they mean and whether champs meet their requirements. It's not my problem people are too dense to look into an example and find the general idea within it.
P.S.2. Statistically speaking marks. = adc. Most of the time champs classified as marks. tend to farm on bot lane.
P.S.3. To Flame - direct a vitriolic or abusive message at (someone) by posting on the Internet or sending an email. Vitriolic - filled with bitter criticism or malice.
You critisized my post for not using your counter-example with no suffcient info forming it in a rude question.
Yes, I belive that was flaming.
kJs1 votesMarksman ≠ ADC Marksman = {ADC}
Azir is a Marksman, according to Riot. The two characteristics of gameplay that Azir shares with ADC Marksmen is that he is ranged and Autoattack reliant. Azir OBVIOUSLY isn't an ADC so why would Riot classify him as one? You never expressed illicit disapproval of Azir being classified as a Marksman in you previous post by the way.
I asked that question because the message I got from the previous post was that TF shouldn't be named as a Marksman because it's misleading when Azir is named a Marksman and Riot seems okay with it. Again, you never clearly disapproved of Riot classifying Azir as a Marksman, dude, you didn't even name Azir in that post. Why can't Azir be a Marksman when he's got great range and he's autoattack reliant.
I'm still confused why you think that question was abusive in any way. I criticised you for failing to mention Azir and expressing your opinion in why he can't be a Marksman. That wasn't out of malice, that was out of confusion.
Previous to that, you outlined why TF can't be a Marksman mentioning that: • He's got low range compared to ADCs. He's got 525 range according to the lol wikia which actually is not that bad, Lucian has 500, Kog'Maw has 500 but of course both have abilities that extend far more. AD TF's range ability (Q) isn't going got deal any damage so TF can only rely on his 525 range to deal crits and physical damage. He's probably disadvantaged here. But again, Marksman does not mean ADC according to Riot so I'm digressing heavily on this point. • He's squishy. Every ADC, if you want to compare him to them, is squishy and so is Azir and Kayle and Teemo early in the game. • He has no instant escape. A number of ADCs have weak/no escapes Kog'Maw only has his Ooze for its slow to help him escape and that's not even a real escape. Heck TF has his ult to teleport half way across the map. No escape my ass. Azir has his E to escape/disengage, if soldiers are well placed and used it shuts down ganks quickly and post lvl 6 he has his ultimate great for cock blocking entire teams. TF, comparatively, has his stun to help him escape and if he's quick enough, he can use his ultimate to escape.
Marksmen ≠ ADC
IxtaliKing2 votesI hope Marksman being Azir's secondary classification means he gets the Victorious skin... lel
RyzeRework2 votesteemo as well
Ralanr2 votesKennen bro...
Mimy1 votesive supported a tf adc recently..... he didnt do tooo well....
just because they're marksman doesny mean they should go AD.. Marksman is AD or AP but they rely on AA
in azir's case... his soldiers aas
kJs1 votesYeah, I know he's crap. Which is why I said he has been viable (strong is the right word), not anymore though. I think it was Season 3 that he as a viable ADC, seems like just a few months ago.
Riot nerfed his AD ratios.
Actually I have no clue why he can't ADC anymore when he was popular a couple of seasons back. I swear his AD scalings got nerfed... but looking through LoL wikia it doesn't look like they ever touched anything remotely related to ADC Twisted Fate.
I'm confused now. :(
Must be external factors, not Twisted Fate himself.
Axis the Dragon3 votesRemoval of Sword of the Divine was probably the main change that hurt him as an ADC. That, and the fact that it was an assassin-heavy meta around that time, to boot, just didn't go over well with TF. xD
This change in 5.3...
Stacked Deck now builds on towers, but will not apply bonus damage.
... also somewhat reduced AD TF's pushing power - 155 Magic Damage is huge (it's better than a Sheen proc)
Samflash32 votesReasons:
kJs1 votesI see.
Trias0001 votesTF doesn't have AD scalings. The only thing that would make him a marksman is bonus attack speed. Yes, W technically scales with AD, but it's an auto attack after all. So it doesn't use AD any more than any other mage's auto attacks.
kJs1 votesIt's an ability therefore he has AD scalings. That's like saying Nasus's isn't an ability because he has to Autoattack to use it. Or Wukong's Q or Garen Q.
Trias0001 votesFirst of all, those deal bonus physical damage based on your AD (except for Nasus - so he doesn't really have AD scalings as well, nor does he build AD), not just the standard autoattack damage. Secondly, they reset your autoattack timer. So the more AD you have, the more they increase your dps. That's not the case for TF - whether he has 100 or 1000 AD, his W only increases his dps by the flat amount of the bonus spell damage (and % of AP if he has any). For example: You autattack 5 times in a given time, so you deal damage equal to your 500% AD. But then you throw in an additional ability in there. As Wukong, you use your Q. First, that one attack deals 110% AD, but also it resets your aa, so let's say you make 6 autoattacks in the same time instead of 5. That's 610% AD + the flat bonus damage from Q. Garen deals 640%, Nasus 600%. Compare that to 500% AD from only autoattacks. Now, if TF casts his W, it doesn't reset his aa timer, so he still has only 5 attacks, and so he deals 500% AD. Same as if he didn't use any ability at all, except it gives him flat bonus damage. Therefore, his W doesn't actually scale with AD.
In other words, if you removed all flat bonus damage from abilities, Twisted Fate's W wouldn't increase his dps at all (unless he built AP), whereas Garen's W and Wukong's Q would.
kJs1 votesYou're digressing. I never said they were exact same abilities.
You said he doesn't have AD scalings because W is an autoattack when champions like Wukong essentially have the same autoattack modifying ability. Autoattack resets are out of the question nor is being able to deal more damage by AA resetting, you went on a tangent there.
TF has AD scaling.
Trias0001 votes{quoted} champions like Wukong essentially have the same autoattack modifying ability.
They're not the same and I explained you why.
Autoattack resets are out of the question nor is being able to deal more damage by AA resetting, you went on a tangent there.
O rly? So if I attack you twice in the same time as you attack me once, I don't deal more damage than you?
PS. Does Teemo's or Cho'Gath's E have AD scaling? How about Orianna's passive? They scale with AD just as much as TF's W. Even Xerath's passive "scales with AD" by your logic.
Trias0001 votesOk. After giving it some though, I agree that his W kinda scales with AD, because he can use it without interrupting his autoattacks. However, compare him to e.g. AD Syndra. Let' say they both have 1.0 attack speed. Now, buying 100 AD increases Syndra's dps by 100. How about TF? The same. If he buys 100 AD, his dps increases by 100. So in that sense, he scales with AD no better than Syndra. (Considering only Twisted Fate's W. Of course his E is a different story, but I mentioned that in my frist comment).
LeeDark2 votesGenerally speaking, a Marksman is someone who has an autoattack steroid of some sort. Cait has her passive, Jinx has Q, Vayne has... a lot. TF has both his W and his E, giving him both an on-hit booster and a straight-up steroid. It is less of the fact that they rely on their autoattack and more that they CAN rely on because they have the tools to make it better.
I still think we should draw a distinction between someone who can go mage OR marksman, and someone who is a mage/marksman. TF can build either, but if he builds mage, he isn't a marksman, and if he builds as a marksman, he isn't a mage. Azir does both simultaneously, and I would say shares that classification with only Teemo and Kayle.
Ternt1 votesive supported a tf adc recently..... he didnt do tooo well....
just because they're marksman doesny mean they should go AD.. Marksman is AD or AP but they rely on AA
in azir's case... his soldiers aas
He is the most high risk, high reward ADC's I feel. He has a very slow wind up time, but once he is rolling , he shits on people. When I first started playing I loved TF, but I hated his main damage source in his Q. So I started playing him ADC for fun and had many spotty games. I would prefer to see Jungle Twisted Fate over ADC though. I have played him a lot in Jungle and I still think he's insanely viable with Devourer. It worked better before the nerf cause of his E passive + Devourer + BoRK. But either way, building him how Kikis did versus TSM is viable as well. AP means faster damage/better clears, but AD means you can stun and melt a tank to under 1/3 health in that span of 2 seconds.
Hyrum Graff1 votesive supported a tf adc recently..... he didnt do tooo well....
just because they're marksman doesny mean they should go AD.. Marksman is AD or AP but they rely on AA
in azir's case... his soldiers aas
TF adc isn't about being strong.
It's about getting a guaranteed fb with gold card and lvl 2 gank from your jungler, then punishing your enemy in lane with chain cc, then splitpushing all the time and taking towers before your opponent has a chance to rotate and meet you.
So basically, being a dick in every way possible.
Mimy1 votesWell we didn't get a level 2 gank.. but last night I was goofing around playing kennen adc. Still working out kinks making mistakes and such.. (In teambuilder bronze normals.. dont freak out lol)
but one game I was against a SUPPORT TF.. and I sware he had like Yellow card on demand.. was never OOM it was insane.. xD I give that tf some props he was good..
GastonBarnacles1 votesTeemo?
My first penta was ad tf. He soes good with kill lane supports.