Some Rules the Gameplay Boards Need to Realize About Discussing Balancing

Meep Man··95 votes·3,265 views

1. Gutting a Champion Is Never the Answer Gutting someone as in making them weak and underpowered. This is never the answer. I don't care if you hate the champion because there is someone out there who loves the champion. Hate Yasuo? Tell that to the Yasuo player base which is huge. I don't care if he is hated by many, someone loves him and making him unarguably unplayable is not the way to make this game better. Edit: And by gutting, I mean make the champion completely unplayable by any means. In the past, Riot would make a champion relatively underpowered intentionally if their kit was flawed, but they were never unplayable. No one, even if everyone told you otherwise, was an instant lose upon locking them in.

2. We Cannot Buff Champions That Are Currently Balanced Without Other Negative Changes If someone is sitting at a 50% win rate and has their dedicated player base, unless the buff is something so minor and/or more of a QoL change to make playing them feel a little better, you can't just buff a champion because they aren't seeing frequent play in the meta, are countered by the current meta champion, etc... That is exactly how some new OP rises up and kills everyone. Then they become the ones complained about. If someone gets a buff while balanced, they need to get nerfed somewhere else or they will become overpowered. That should be obvious.

3. Details Details Details When Telling Why a Champion Needs Nerfs/Buffs "This champion is extremely broken because I hate them. Fire the balance team. Gut this. Gut that." No, we need details. If you can't come up with an argument other than "I hate them" then chances are you just got whopped by them in-game and are angry you lost. Furthermore, don't close yourself off from discussion in the thread. If you don't want to discuss something like a human being, don't post something on a forum. A forum is a place for discussion, not baby talk. Act like a baby, and you will be met with other babies and be treated like one.

4. Insulting Others During a Balance Discussion Helps Nothing I don't need to explain this point. If someone is insulting you, try to keep your head. Likewise, however, if you start throwing out insults, don't expect the other person to treat you like a king or even a respectable human being. If you sucker punched someone, don't expect some free cake in return. However, all in all, just don't fight. Control yourself and act mature.

5. If a Champion Is Reworked, There Was a Reason Try and learn what these reasons are before speaking. If you don't come in with all the details, you will just sound like someone who is ranting and doesn't know what they are talking about. Also, please try and understand the reasoning behind the rework. By all means, if Riot decided to rework someone because "they felt like it", jump on them and tell them why this rework helped nothing. However, if Riot has a reason that is valid, please understand that the charm you saw in the champion was likely very annoying to everyone else... or you were a very small minority and if a champion is only played by like five people, Riot will likely try to expand that number.

6. Don't Discuss the PBE Like It is Law If you see a change on the PBE, do not treat it like it WILL happen. Several changes are constantly removed from the PBE, so if Kha'Zix got some insane buff that seems strange, chances are it will be removed if it really is that bad. Likewise, do not treat changes on the PBE like they aren't there. If Malzahar is OP and Riot nerfs Malzahar on the PBE, please don't continue to ask for Malzahar nerfs on the Boards when they are already coming. Also, if you really don't like a change on the PBE, you can definitely voice your opinion, but please abide by the other rules listed here and don't overreact about it.

7. Stats Are Not the Full Picture, But They Are a Great Guide If someone on multiple sites is sitting at a 50% win rate, a 4.5% play rate, and maybe a 5% or so ban rate, don't deny these stats like they don't exist. There clearly isn't as big of an issue with this champion as you think there is. Chances are you just got hit by a OTP that has mastered the champion when they stomped you last game. Just respect that the opponent was good and move on. Learn from your mistakes and become a better player.

8. Read and Analyze All of a Post Don't just assume something about a post before you read it. Be sure to analyze all of a post and read it all before passing a judgement about it. If you don't have all the information, you could end up just looking kind of dumb and asking questions the person you are discussing with has already answered. Furthermore, don't continue to ask the same question after someone gave you an answer you don't like. You have to change their opinion somehow before asking again, so just spamming someone won't get you anywhere.

108 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar21 votes

Excellent points!

I want people to keep #5 in mind today, in particular. Swain is coming, and I won't let you destroy my hype. He's my most played champ, and even I know that he desperately needed some changes. Let's hope they rock crosses fingers

Slice n Dice em6 votes

Permabanned. He has become Lord Sidious now.

Edit: Imo, It should have been a vlad rework, the whole red blood draining thing. I see too less of ravens in action....

Harden Stepback19 votes

Gutting the champ is a reasonable solution when the champions kit is flawed. Gut and put them on the rework list.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

How many champions are we talking about doing this to? What about the players who are excited by those champions' thematics? Do we just let players buy them and suffer afterwards because those champions would suck? Do we forcibly take those champions back from players and remove them from the store so nobody can fall for that trap?

Literally anything Riot could do with these champions would piss off or cause suffering for large sections of the player-base. So no, gutting is not reasonable. It has fuck-all shitty outcomes no matter how you slice it.

Amoc13 votes

{quoted}

What about the players who are excited by those champions' thematics? Do we just let players buy them and suffer afterwards because those champions would suck?

It doesn't matter. Those poor souls will survive. Their enjoying the "thematics" of their chosen champion shouldn't ever take priority over healthy gameplay and balance.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

It absolutely matters. If you cut a large chunk of the champion pool out then suddenly League becomes a lot less diverse, champion and skin sales will suffer, and Riot will not be able to maintain the funding necessary to continue developing and improving the game.

I never said that those champions' kits should be left alone, simply that they should not be gutted. Rework them or tune the abilities for fucks sake, just don't gut them. That's just petty revenge grudging.

Amoc11 votes

That's total balogna. Gutting a few particularly problematic champions will barely affect the player base. In fact you could argue that it might improve it. Players have a limited amount of patience for broken balance and mechanics. Certain things just aren't fun to play against.

As for the kits being gutted, the balancing process isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. Sometimes the champion design is so broken on a fundamental level that tuning passes just won't solve it. It's not always about balance either. There are plenty of instances where "balance" is objectively fine but the gameplay is unhealthy. Rather than devoting unreasonable amounts of resources to something that just doesn't work very well is therefore not a good solution. When a champion gets "gutted", the goal is almost certainly an eventual rework. When a champion is extremely unpopular, however (like in Urgot or Yorick's case), that rework could take awhile. Someone like Yasuo, however, might be more of a priority.

I hate Yasuo though :P

HalcyonDweller5 votes

I'll repeat myself, it absolutely matters how many champions we are talking about.

if we are talking about just 1-5 champions then the impact isn't so bad. But judging from the complaints and circle-jerks I've seen occur when people post demanding that a particular champion be gutted, it looks more like 10-15 champions. a 100% - 200% increase is not good, especially when those champions have large playerbases.

Here's a list of champions I've seen people demand be gutted in the past 6 months just off the top of my head:

  • Heimerdinger
  • Yasuo
  • Master Yi
  • Zed
  • Zoe
  • Darius
  • Ezreal
  • Graves
  • Elise
  • Gnar
  • Illaoi
  • Cho'Gath
  • Rammus
  • Nasus
  • Twitch
  • Vayne
  • Fizz
  • Jayce

And that's just off the top of my head. There are more than just these.

People demand gutting as a knee-jerk reaction to any champion they are annoyed by or have recently been stomped by. As such, players demanding gutting is a really shitty metric for whether or not that champion actually warrants gutting.

Amoc1 votes

You're making up a problem that doesn't exist. Riot doesn't base all of their balancing decisions on random players' complaining. That's why most of the champions on that long list of yours haven't been gutted or pegged for a rework.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

My point is that players bitch about these characters in ways that make the forums look bad, and in doing so they push Rioters away from the boards.

It's perfectly reasonable to have a rule against demanding that champions be gutted. That's why the original post here put it forth as a rule.

Amoc1 votes

It's a silly rule and would be impossible to enforce. This is a reddit-format discussion board and you're going to have all sorts of unreasonable folk posting here along with those interested/capable of intelligent discussion. Ignore one, listen to the other, but vague "rules" about what sort of game discussion is allowed or not are just silly and naive.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Obviously we cannot prevent people from making such posts, I'm arguing that it is fair and reasonable for moderation to delete such posts. It's not censorship if the post isn't valuable to discussions.

Amoc1 votes

It's more trouble than it's worth and would require full-time staff devoted solely to moderating subjective feedback based on necessarily vague guidelines. The benefit is also overstated. I think you grossly exaggerate the scale and severity of the problem when the easiest and most reasonable solution is to just ignore dumb and unreasonable feedback.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

It's more trouble than it's worth and would require full-time staff devoted solely to moderating subjective feedback based on necessarily vague guidelines.

The moderation group has been growing as time progresses, they do seem to be trying to take on more of these. I don't think it's a bad cause to take on.

The benefit is also overstated. I think you grossly exaggerate the scale and severity of the problem when the easiest and most reasonable solution is to just ignore dumb and unreasonable feedback.

Such discussions add to the general tone of the board and they make it less respectable. Rioters themselves have admitted to not thinking highly of the boards because of seeing posts like these. Removing them can only benefit the boards.

The degree of benefit is not important, the posts are not useful in the first place. And they only serve to hurt the boards overall.

Amoc1 votes

The boards are a bad idea because the format sucks for an official discussion board.

As for your moderating suggestion, the degree of benefit is everything. Saying it's unimportant is just dumb, sorry. You have to pay staff to provide that level of additional moderation and policing content to the level you suggest would be a ridiculous undertaking - one unlikely to succeed at its objective in the first place due to volume.

It's a waste of time and money.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

The boards are a bad idea because the format sucks for an official discussion board.

The boards probably need some fundamental changes before they can function well. but that is besides the point.

As for your moderating suggestion, the degree of benefit is everything. Saying it's unimportant is just dumb, sorry. You have to pay staff to provide that level of additional moderation and policing content to the level you suggest would be a ridiculous undertaking - one unlikely to succeed at its objective in the first place due to volume.

It's a waste of time and money.

Agree to disagree then. You'll never convince me otherwise either. Seeya.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Not sure how Pantheon fits his thematic by being an Olympic spear thrower...

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I never mentioned pantheon, so I don't really see why you are treating me like I am defending a point that I literally never made.

AirKingNeo1 votes

You said we shouldn't gut champions because people like their thematics.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I said we should not gut champions because it leaves unviable champions available as BE/RP spending traps.

And because any actionable reaction to THAT problem would result in players feeling even shittier because not all player play unviable champions simply because of not knowing better. Some of them like to play them anyways and forcibly deleting the champion until it could be fixed... fuck it. Just read my comment again. I never said "we shouldn't gut champions because people like their thematics."

Marshbouy2 votes

E.G. Poppy (old)

Wukong Airlines17 votes

We Cannot Buff Champions That Are Currently Balanced Without Other Negative Changes, but We can keep a certain champion MonkeyKing untouched for nearly 4 years [[1387 days]] with all the meta/items/Runes and masteries/ and overall changes {buffs/adjustment} to the champions he's supposed to counter and still expect him to be fairly competitive with his binary unrewarding kit and useless unmanageable passive.

DracosKasu2 votes

He is gutted because of that stupid item that can make him broken if they do buff him.

What item the one and only one item 3147

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

stop with this bs. Wukong is older than Draktharr

DracosKasu2 votes

BS right, the truth is that wukong can activate the passive more time then most of the other bruiser in-game.

  • engage with E and hit with Q duskblade dmg bonus -stealth yourself for 1sec with W -re-engage with the duskblade bonus

So yeah that so bs right, you can’t even see the truth, yeah Wukong isnt as his best shape but he isnt even as his worst. You can complaint all day if you want but you need to understand that any change have a risk.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

BS right, the truth is that wukong can activate the passive more time then most of the other bruiser in-game.

Bruiser don't build duskblade. Wukong is build and played like other assassin. Ur main point and bs is this

He is gutted because of that stupid item

no, no and no, they don't let him like this due to one item. And wukong despite his steath is easly controled/managed outside low elo.

So yeah that so bs right, you can’t even see the truth, yeah Wukong isnt as his best shape but he isnt even as his worst. You can complaint all day if you want but you need to understand that any change have a risk.

??? they're such thing like risk, to begin nobody ask for a buff but a change. And Wukong even when lethality is meta, isn't meta.

Syrdon14 votes

The first rule is completly false.

Riot left some champs in the garbage on purpose, waiting for rework (Yorick, Volibear etc). Yasuo and Lee Sin need the same treatment.

HalcyonDweller8 votes

The first rule applies to the players not to Riot. It is wrong to demand that a champion be gutted. Don't do it. You will just look like an asshole.

Syrdon10 votes

I don't think it's wrong. A lot of champs are broken by design (all CertinlyT ones, Yasuo, Lee Sin, Jayce or Elise to name a few). They can only be overpowered or garbage. I feel like it's reasonable to ask these champs to be left in the garbage until they get their rework.

HalcyonDweller7 votes

It's actually not reasonable to ask for them to be left in the garbage. Because such champions promise a thematic and being left in a gutted state would serve as noob traps for players who wouldn't realize that those champions were weak. Then you get into an issue with refunds or if Riot should simply delete the champion until they can be reworked, and then you get into an issue where some people want to play the champion anyways and would be upset if the champion they didn't want to stop playing was forcibly taken from them and refunded.

It's a huge mess that has no fair solution. So no, gutting a champion is never a good solution. And making it a policy to do so to many champions at once would be an absolute nightmare.

Syrdon10 votes

Who the hell complained or asked a refund for Yorick ? Nobody. Because, and I loved old Yorick, he was just a broken mess. Everyone agreed to left him in the garbage. Same with Voli, Nunu, Annie or Udyr for example, who the hell want them to become meta again ? Nobody. And if they ever become meta again in their actual state, everyone will ask Riot to put them back right in the garbage.

It's of course not a long term solution, but it can help.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

If Riot is going to put work into changing a champion anyways, I would rather they simply tune them in a balanced way rather than just gut them.

Most of the time that people demand for champions to be gutted, those people are just salty and are trying to take petty revenge grudges out on those champions. They don't actually want the champions to be balanced, they just want revenge for getting stomped by that champion in-game.

Syrdon5 votes

"I would rather they simply tune them in a balanced way rather than just gut them"

I think you don't understand some champions simply cannot be balanced because they are broken by design. They cannot be balanced by tweaking numbers, items or other champs. They will be either too strong or useless. Just take a look at Lee Sin or Elise history. Another example : juggernauts. You can tweak all the numbers you want, they will either have the means to reach their targets and destroy them, or get kitted to death. Because it's how they're designed.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Fine, I'm not here to argue about whether or not gutting is acceptable. I'm here to talk about why players demanding champions be gutted is unacceptable. Next time don't cherry pick my statements and ignore the meat of my argument.

"Most of the time that people demand for champions to be gutted, those people are just salty and are trying to take petty revenge grudges out on those champions. They don't actually want the champions to be balanced, they just want revenge for getting stomped by that champion in-game."

Syrdon5 votes

I prefere talking about facts, can you back up your claim that "most of the time people demand for champions to be gutted, those people are just salty and are trying to take petty revenge grudges out on those champions" ? Because I feel like people mostly complain about the outliers of the month or broken champs (Lee / Yasuo).

Oh and, i wasn't cherry picking your statements, I'm just trying to explain you through examples that you're wrong when you write "Gutting a Champion Is Never the Answer" (which is not a cherry picked statement but your first point. I mostly agree with the others tho, except maybe the 7th but it would be hard for me to explain my point to non-statisticians since english is not my mother tongue).

HarrisonOwns2 votes

You whine a lot.

You say dumb shit and then cry when it's called out, but tell people they can't have an opinion.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

{quoted}

You whine a lot.

So do people who demand that champions they lose to get gutted.

You say dumb shit and then cry when it's called out,

What I did was accept that I was wrong in the argument of whether gutting is appropriate sometimes or not, and then I refocused on to the main point I was arguing about anyways which was that players shouldn't demand gutting. That's not the same thing as saying dumb shit and then crying. I wasn't intending to argue about whether gutting is appropriate or not, it's just easy to get dragged off topic when people focus on one part of my claims.

but tell people they can't have an opinion.

Where in this thread did I say that people could not have opinions?

Amoc5 votes

It's absolutely reasonable. There can come a time when a champion is so broken that it has a significant and unhealthy effect on the player base. While you can certainly make an argument around what's "fair" in terms of refunding etc, it's far better to have a gutted champion sitting on the sidelines while Rito figures out what to do with it than it is to have it stomping the ranked queues and making the game unenjoyable for everyone else. In this case, the health of the game is far more important than the bandwagoners that jumped on the most reason FotM (who will survive).

HalcyonDweller2 votes

And Riot does that in cases where it is warranted. My argument here is about how players demand for champions to get gutted.

Most of the time a player makes a post about gutting a champion, it is just because they got stomped in lane by that champion and they are salty. They want revenge, not balance. And it's not good for the boards or for the game when players like that come on here and demand gutting.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

Riot left some champs in the garbage on purpose,

Yeah

Yasuo and Lee Sin need the same treatment.

no

Karunamon9 votes

Mostly spot-on, but:

{quoted}

1. Gutting a Champion Is Never the Answer Gutting someone as in making them weak and underpowered. This is never the answer. I don't care if you hate the champion because there is someone out there who loves the champion. Hate Yasuo? Tell that to the Yasuo player base which is huge. I don't care if he is hated by many, someone loves him and making him unarguably unplayable is not the way to make this game better.

Unless you're Sona, in which case it's the only answer. (only sort of kidding)

Less farcically, it does seem like Riot has no interest in keeping all champs viable at all times. And I don't mean in the sense of being "in meta" or "flavor of the week", I mean that champs get hit with the nerf bat hard enough to make them not viable for most players, after which they get a rework.

So gutting a champion is sometimes the answer Riot gives us.

6. Don't Discuss the PBE Like It is Law If you see a change on the PBE, do not treat it like it WILL happen. Several changes are constantly removed from the PBE, so if Kha'Zix got some insane buff that seems strange, chances are it will be removed if it really is that bad. Likewise, do not treat changes on the PBE like they aren't there. If Malzahar is OP and Riot nerfs Malzahar on the PBE, please don't continue to ask for Malzahar nerfs on the Boards when they are already coming. Also, if you really don't like a change on the PBE, you can definitely voice your opinion, but please abide by the other rules listed here and don't overreact about it.

At the same time, a number of really shitty changes have made it through PBE over the years, to the point where it's caused people to question why the PBE is even P if feedback is to be ignored. As an example, people were calling shenanigans on item 3504 in 6.22, it got buffed directly twice in S7 (arguably three) before finally being scaled back in 7.21, enough for it to be a game-changing item at LCS.

7. Stats Are Not the Full Picture, But They Are a Great Guide If someone on multiple sites is sitting at a 50% win rate, a 4.5% play rate, and maybe a 5% or so ban rate, don't deny these stats like they don't exist. There clearly isn't as big of an issue with this champion as you think there is. Chances are you just got hit by a OTP that has mastered the champion when they stomped you last game. Just respect that the opponent was good and move on. Learn from your mistakes and become a better player.

So that means Vayne and Zoe are issues with their >50% banrates, right? Wouldn't the ban rate be more evenly spread in a balanced game where there are aren't OP flavors of the week? That banrate tells me that most people hate dealing with this champ, which if I were the designer or a balance team person, would give me pause.

Votable Jester2 votes

Well to be fair, every champion is banned a lot following their release, and Zoe came out soon after the 10 ban system, giving her an even higher ban rate than normal.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

As someone who usually does not ban new champions when they come out, I am in favor of banning Zoe usually. It's not that she's just disliked, it is that her mechanics are genuinely frustrating and anti-fun to try to deal with and work around.

Teridax684 votes

This thread makes excellent points, and I think it could help many more players on here to read through them and take them to heart. Here are some of my thoughts on each point individually:

{quoted}

1. Gutting a Champion Is Never the Answer

This is perhaps the only point I do not fully agree with, in part because this is a strategy Riot has used in the past. For sure, far too many players on here demand champions to be gutted when much more reasonable nerfs or changes would suffice, but when a champion is proven to be severely unhealthy for the game, as was the case for Poppy, Sion and Urgot prior to their VGUs, or Kassadin in his >90% ban rate days, I do think it is appropriate to intentionally limit their presence by making them underpowered (but not to the point of being useless either). With that said, because Gameplay often tends to be hyperbolic in evaluating the brokenness of champions, there are also far too many champions on here who are complained about as if they were the absolute worst thing that ever happened to the game, when in reality they're not as awful as they're said to be (even though some of them are indeed in not-so-great shape). Because of this, while I think making champions deliberately underpowered should be a viable option as an absolute last-case, urgent and temporary solution, I absolutely agree that it should never be the first answer to any kind of champion-related issue, as is all too often the case in this space.

{quoted}

2. We Cannot Buff Champions That Are Currently Balanced Without Other Negative Changes

This I completely agree with, though an issue I've often run into is also that a lot of players on the Boards tend to not factor this in when arguing against power shifts. There have been many times where I made a comment about giving some kind of QoL buff to a champion that was already strong, then getting downvoted and criticized for wanting to make that champion broken, even as I explicitly said in the very comment those users were replying to that that champion should also lose some power elsewhere to avoid becoming too good. The same has also happened when I suggested nerfing weaker champions in some aspect, while also buffing them in another. As players and members of a community, we need to be more conscious of the bigger picture here, and not tear each other to pieces just because we only bothered to read through half of what a person was saying. If a person is explicitly saying that a strong champion needs even more buffs, as is sometimes the case here, then sure, they should be made aware of the fact that they can't have their cake and eat it too, but otherwise we should assume that people arguing for the improvement of a champion's gameplay are genuinely trying to do just that, and don't have some sort of hidden agenda for making them OP.

{quoted}

3. Details Details Details When Telling Why a Champion Needs Nerfs/Buffs

I completely agree with this, and I also agree that the presence of immature, low-effort and whiny threads are likely causing some of the greatest harm to Gameplay. Riot themselves have told us time and time again that the most efficient way of giving feedback is to provide a problem statement, cite examples, invite others into the discussion, and so on, yet as players we're still all too often content with parroting the same few soundbites and giving them far more visibility than much better-written discussions. To be fair, I don't think this is entirely the community's fault, as a large part of the problem comes from the voting system, which rewards low-effort, repetitive threads that touch upon whichever hot topic du jour, and tends to bury more substantial threads that give players more things to disagree upon. We certainly have room to improve as a community, though I also think Riot needs to meet us halfway on this and implement structural changes to the Boards that would avoid warping incentives as they do now.

{quoted}

4. Insulting Others During a Balance Discussion Helps Nothing

Agree 100%, and I think this much should be obvious to everyone. Personal insults are the worst mistake one can make in a debate, and generally belie a less-than-civil atmosphere up to that point. Too many people on here are focused on either venting their frustrations onto others or "winning" arguments at all costs, usually by angering their opponent until they leave or say something that can get flagged and punished by a mod, and those are exactly the kinds of attitude that have no place in an online discussion forum. As with the above, many more people here need to remember that they should be entering this discussion space with respect towards others, including (and especially) those who disagree with them in a civil manner, and that in spite of our differences we're all on the same side, and fighting for the same cause in the end.

{quoted}

5. If a Champion Is Reworked, There Was a Reason

This I agree with, and unfortunately I've seen quite a few players who opposed a rework purely because the champion ended up being different from their previous iteration, regardless of the issues they had before or the improvements the rework brought with it. For sure, I think some reworks were unjustified, or should at least have been done differently, but that process of evaluation should come from a solid analysis of what needed to be reworked and what didn't, and how the rework achieved its goals. As individuals, we all too often tend to fall into the trap of demanding reworks on the spot for champions we dislike playing against, but then become far too reactionary when it comes to implementing even slight balance or gameplay changes to the champions we play. Because this kind of attitude is obviously not mutually compatible when it's present on players for literally every champion, there often ends up being some level of unjustified complaining on here at any given time (even though not all of that complaining is unjustified, obviously).

{quoted}

6. Don't Discuss the PBE Like It is Law

This I largely agree with, though I also have mixed feelings for it because Riot has largely treated the PBE like a showcase for upcoming content, rather than a place for experimental changes and testing. I think it varies from designer to designer, but there have often been instances of absolutely ridiculous changes popping up on the PBE, those getting dismissed or downplayed because "it's just the PBE", with the presumption that those changes would get pulled or at least adjusted in the near future, and then those changes hitting Live untouched, and wreaking havoc in spite of feedback given even on the PBE Boards. The AP Galio buffs are a prime example of this, among many others. We should definitely not treat changes on the PBE as if they were on Live already, but we should still take PBE feedback into account when criticizing those changes, and we should also expect more flexibility in how PBE content gets adjusted and developed over time.

{quoted}

7. Stats Are Not the Full Picture, But They Are a Great Guide

I agree with this, though I think the deeper problem is that, as a community, we're actually pretty terrible at reading statistics. If a champion has something like a >53% win rate and a >10% play rate, that's usually a reliable indicator that they're too strong, but when suggesting balance changes, it's important to consider how these win and play rates change across elos (if these stats peak at the highest elos but aren't so bad at lower MMR, making these champions more difficult to play will only make matters worse, for example), how that champion's win rate evolves across game time (it should be normal for, say, an early game champion to succeed more at a time when the early game is more important), and who that champion's fighting against: if a champion's counters are popular, or if that champion often gets matched up against champions they counter, their win and play rates will reflect that, and balancing them purely on win rate alone risks making them immune to their lane counters, or incapable of properly countering their more favorable matchups, and thereby worsening their balance just a few months or weeks down the line, as has happened several times before. As a community, we need to look at the balancing of champions over a longer period of time, and not just on a per-match basis.

{quoted}

8. Read and Analyze All of a Post

Fully agree on this. I've seen far too many potentially healthy debates spiral into circularity simply because people refused to listen to each other, and end up producing nothing positive because everybody stuck to their guns, and refused to make even the slightest effort of understanding where the other person was coming from. Part of the problem I think comes from the fact that people generally don't like admitting to being wrong, or even questioning their own assumptions, because they think it'll make them lose face, which is prevalent across the whole internet. Because of this, I think we might need to enforce stricter standards for participation on Gameplay, in order to keep quality of discussion equally high.

DuskDaUmbreon6 votes

I'd say for the "Gutting is never an answer", he means more for discussion.

"Gut (x) because he's op!!!1" is completely worthless as discussion. The only time Riot even considers that is when a champion's inherent kit is so flawed, so problematic, that said champion can never be balanced in the game's current state. They do it from time to time, but only to shut down a problematically strong champion that fits the criteria of "Literally impossible to balance with numbers right now". Such as the champions you've mentioned, or Kalista (who's starting to be semi-balanced in lower tiers due to subtle number shifts, and runes).

But, back to the main point: It's a completely and utterly worthless thing to say in a discussion. "Gut Vayne" is not a balance post, it's a borderline spam post. Even if Vayne needs to be gutted, saying "Gut her" is pointless. Riot'd have already thought of that if it was needed, and it puts literally nothing new into discussion. You might as well just go onto the boards and scream "potato" at your computer, because you created the exact same amount of actual discussion either way.

Teridax682 votes

This I completely agree with, and asking to gut a champion simply because they're too strong, rather than because they're fundamentally and seriously unhealthy, is never justified. I also very much agree that asking to gut any champion requires a serious amount of evidence and solid reasoning to back that up, and in practice it seems like the intensity with which players want to gut a champion seems to correlate inversely with the amount of effort they are willing to put into explaining why.

Penns1 votes

[deleted]

Sun Wu Ryuumoku26 votes

u need to be reworked too

Penns1 votes

[deleted]

Ichoes5 votes

You forgot rule #3

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