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Lee's kit has more base damage and scaling than assassins

Ulquiorra995··57 votes·3,095 views

Lee's QQER: 1140 + 480% AD + 8% missing HP

Zed's RWQE, considering 50% damage amplification, 2 shrunken hits and passive: 948 + 415% AD + 9-15% max HP

Talon's EQWR, considering 15% damage amplification: 1035 + 460% AD

That's right. Lee's THREE damaging abilities outperform Zed's FIVE abilities and Talon's FOUR. He also gets a free escape on his fourth ability. Remind me again why is he allowed to do this kind of damage with all the utility he has?

No, he won't out damage late game Zed or Talon unless he builds full AD. But if he gets ahead he's impossible to outduel or escape. If he is behind in levels and gold he still wins fights because of how absurdly high his numbers are. Because shutting him down early to have him out damage you in addition to having better utility while 2 levels and 500 gold behind is totally fair and balanced.

Because seriously. Facing this overloaded piece of shit is beyond frustrating. He is in every fucking game. Because there is no reason not to pick someone who does assassin-grade damage with support-level utility.

43 Comments

Spookzie29 votes

Riot sees your post Riot doesn't care

Ulquiorra9959 votes

{quoted}

Riot sees your post Riot doesn't care

"Muh community outbreak" Day that Riot realizez that for every Lee player in a game there are five tired and frustrated of playing against an overloaded piece of crap in every game will be the best day in history of LoL balance.

Spookzie11 votes

Riot sees op. Riot acknowledges problem Riot buffs jungle Riot logic Riot Rio Ri R

Pæan3 votes

R Ri Rio Riot Riot logic Riot likes plays Riot likes the LCS Riot sees Lee make plays Riot cant touch Lee :C (due to favoritism and 'reddit-backlash')

Meep Man6 votes

{quoted}

Riot sees op. Riot acknowledges problem Riot buffs jungle Riot logic Riot Rio Ri R

A sudden switch to Karthus ?

Samflash313 votes

LeeSin I don't see a problem

Ariel the Cruel14 votes

Lissandra Are we looking at the same thing here?

Samflash311 votes

LeeSin I'm not sure. Lemme put on my glasses LeeSin item 2045 item 2049

The5lacker10 votes

MasterYi Ah! I see the problem now!

Samflash33 votes

Zed The unseen problem is the deadliest.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Zilean I knew you would do that.

Juggernaut Jesus8 votes

Ever see his April Fools' spotlight? Turns out it wasn't a joke.

SouL1ess3 votes

Zed's combo damage with your assumptions: (235+235/2+180+112+112)*1.5+(1.0+0.5+0.8+1.0+1.0)*1.5 + (6-10% enemy max hp)*1.5= 1135 + 6.45*Bonus AD + 9-15% enemy max HP if passive occurs.

Zed scales way better with Bonus AD at a loss of 5 base damage.

Talon's combo also does better than Lee Sin's combo because of how fast it flows.

Given a free-output environment, Zed > Lee Sin > Talon.

Indeed, it is a dubious thing why does Lee Sin do 340 + 1.8*Bonus AD + 8% missing HP on his Q, but Lee Sin isn't really good as an assassin.

Ulquiorra9955 votes

{quoted}

Zed's combo damage with your assumptions: (235+235/2+180+112+112)*1.5+(1.0+0.5+0.8+10+1.0)*1.5 + (6-10% enemy max hp)*1.5= 1135 + 6.45*Bonus AD + 9-15% enemy max HP if passive occurs.

Zed scales way better with Bonus AD at a loss of 5 base damage.

Talon's combo also does better than Lee Sin's combo because of how fast it flows.

Given a free-output environment, Zed > Lee Sin > Talon.

Indeed, it is a dubious thing why does Lee Sin do 340 + 1.8*Bonus AD + 8% missing HP on his Q, but Lee Sin isn't really good as an assassin.

That was my point. With all the utility he brings Lee absolutely shouldn't do comparable damage as assassins. Assassin's job is, well... assassinating by dealing extremely high and fast single target damage. If we have a generalist with no real weakness doing assassin level damage - well, we have a problem.

Sure, you won't see Lee build full assassin. But with that he will assassinate people early game. He will be impossible to outduel if you are even with him, and impossible to outrun because of his kit. He will be able to outdamage you even when behind. Lee is extremely hard to shut down due to his broken mobility and CC, and even if you manage to you won't be properly rewarded since his insane bases and scalings will allow him to stand head-to-head with you even when behind in gold and levels.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

Lee's QQER: 1140 + 480% AD + 8% missing HP

Zed's RWQE, considering 50% damage amplification, 2 shrunken hits and passive: 948 + 415% AD + 6-10% max HP

Talon's EQWR, considering 15% damage amplification: 1035 + 400% AD

That's right. Lee's THREE damaging abilities outperform Zed's FIVE abilities and Talon's FOUR. He also gets a free escape on his fourth ability. Remind me again why is he allowed to do this kind of damage with all the utility he has?

No, he won't out damage late game Zed or Talon unless he builds full AD. But if he gets ahead he's impossible to outduel or escape. If he is behind in levels and gold he still wins fights because of how absurdly high his numbers are. Because shutting him down early to have him out damage you in addition to having better utility while 2 levels and 500 gold behind is totally fair and balanced.

Because seriously. Facing this overloaded piece of shit is beyond frustrating. He is in every fucking game. Because there is no reason not to pick someone who does assassin-grade damage with support-level utility.

I tried to prove you wrong by going through all the similar AD damage junglers and none of them even come close to the Ratios or the Damage of Lee

Jarvan's damage is pretty much as high as Lee's but not nearly as high AD ratios.

Wukong's damage and Scaling is around the same but he has no sustain and limited mobility comparatively.

DoraTheBrown1 votes

Panth has a 140% + 360% (IF he lands 3 strikes on a champ.) = 500% tho 20% isn't much

SouL1ess1 votes

He doesn't have Lee Sin's combo base damage. He does have a low-CD model for burst damage though.

Bears Dont Care4 votes

{quoted}

Jarvan's damage is pretty much as high as Lee's but not nearly as high AD ratios.

No...no it isn't. Base damage and scaling is all lower. E scales with AP

In anycase, yes, Lee Sin is ridiculous. No, Riot does not care. No, people still say he falls off. Yes, they are ignorant.

Jefftiffy3 votes

The thing is you seem to not understand the Diff between Lee and Zed. Zed has a huge free damage source on his ult and better AS and better abilties that aren't as projected to get in. I mean Lee can do that much but if he builds that way he will have absolutely no way to kill anyone because he will die before arriving. He has his Q which is his engage for most of his reliable damage. I mean if he ults you after that there is a window that A) he kills you wasting his ult or B) he sends you to safety.

Also Lee's kit requires him to build bruiser, well I mean you can build damage and I have before but I mean GA nulls it so hard and his AAs aren't really the most crisp to be a melee carry.

And you are calcing raw damage. Near every champ in the game gets around 90 armor at 18 without runes or masteries. Thats huge damage reduction even with a LW. (And you fogot ulting Zed throws 3 shurikens as well as have Botrk active and Ravenous).

Seems like you are purposely leaving out information or raging.

Lees WR proves just how borderline he is. And you would think that by now people would have adapted to him. He sits under 50% WR at all times even when deemed "strong". I am sorry that in the 2 years playing this game I have figured out how to play against him and you haven't. Maybe play him a bit and figure out what you need to do.

As much as is ripped on Lee, he is a middle ground with no real strengths other than his ins. He falls of past mid game and can only have a late game if he lands a 5 man ult and is built correctly.

Anrui1 votes

Why would you build AD when you can build tanky and still destroy everyone with your high base damages? :^)

Mephistophilis3 votes

Riot doesn't give a fuck about balancing as long as "fancy plays" are possible

Yoella2 votes

And mobility. And sustain. And CC. And sight (which is surprising for a blind guy).

JJ H0G1 votes

Well, Q and E are supposed to be used to find enemies because of his blindness.

Really, Lee just needs either his CDs increased or ratios nerfed so he'll either be played as a tanky peeler/initiator or a squishy fighter who tries to single out someone and kill them.

Cindikle2 votes

But one of those abilities is magic damage. Obviously that means he's balanced. .... Probably

Junkο1 votes

He is perfectly balanced, itemizing against somebody who deals hybrid damge is pathetically easy, especially with only 1 hybrid defense item existing..... really easy

killd0zer2 votes

Good thing AD stacking Lee Sin is probably Olaf tier. Like he's really bad even if fed.

This comes from someone who pretty much stacks bloodthirsters on Lee every time I play him.

JJ H0G1 votes

You should see that shit in Bronze-Gold MMR. I've had two lees go top and get 20 stack SotO with hydra, BT, LW, etc.

Luckily these guys were on my team.

Junkο1 votes

Point and click 600 + 200% AD is weak, not to mention abilities you hit to get next to them.

killd0zer1 votes

I mean you can post the number, but it just doesn't really work in practice. He's not that hard to counter, and he really can't carry.

slippykitten2 votes

Every day there are 5 more lee sin posts, and every day Riot ignores all of them.

Can any of you give me one shred of evidence that would suggest Riots balance team cares what you have to say?

RogueWill2 votes

I think you will see LeeSin nerf on Aprils fool.

And gets reverted back on April Second.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

They did that because he doesn't have a bunch of "jump into the enemy team and take no damage moves" ala Fizz/Talon/Zed. He just had "jump into the enemy team" moves, hence the need for tank stats, hence him getting bigger scalings to compensate.

SouL1ess2 votes

jump into the enemy team and take no damage moves

Uhh...Talon has those? (If you say yes, lol)

And Zed only use his ult defensively?

Rinky Dinky1 votes

I feel like you just ignored 2 parts of lee Sin's kit, and Talons.

And Zed.

Fizz is the only champ you listed that has such a move that he is 100% untouchable, and that is fine now. Why? That ability does not one shot anymore in conjunction with his q.

Exabytes1 votes

#$%&()%$#_)(dfjlkqw#j$

WHY?!

Hyrum Graff1 votes
  1. Zed
  • Zed's ult scales off total AD, not bonus AD, so that's a significant amount more damage.
  • Zed also gets +25% Bonus AD as a passive. Has that been factored into these numbers?
  1. Talon
  • You didn't apply the 15% bonus damage to his AD ratios. If you did, his ratios would be 460% bonus AD. Still ridiculous that Lee's got basically the same scaling, although:
    • A lot of talon's damage is AOE
    • Talon has way better target selection
    • Talon's combo is much faster and much easier to hit.
Ulquiorra9951 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pc7o4Lg6,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-02-12T15:26:19.998+0000)

  1. Zed

  • Zed's ult scales off total AD, not bonus AD, so that's a significant amount more damage.

  • Zed also gets +25% Bonus AD as a passive. Has that been factored into these numbers?

  1. Talon
  • You didn't apply the 15% bonus damage to his AD ratios. If you did, his ratios would be 460% bonus AD. Still ridiculous that Lee's got basically the same scaling, although:
    • A lot of talon's damage is AOE
    • Talon has way better target selection
    • Talon's combo is much faster and much easier to hit.

1.) I also didn't count Lee's passive AA's weaving between abilities. I compared raw damage on abilities of a generalist and an assassin, which should not be comparable at all.

2.) My bad, sorry, Will fix. 460% is still lower than 480 tho. And Lee still has 2 AoE's.

Again, I didn't say Lee is excellent when built as an assassin. What I said is, that with so much damage combined with utility Lee is next to impossible to deal with when ahead and still a significant threat even when shut down. With how hard it is to shut down someone with 3 escapes he should be fucking useless if you manage to do so, not still be able to outduel you because Riot decided to give him insane bases and insane scaling.

DONT NEEEED TEAM1 votes

yes he dooes because he is an early game jungler mther fker ...

UdoIkOSc4u1 votes

Tanks go straight into a fight, have natural survivability, sustained damage patterns, team utility/CC and are usually not attractive targets to try and take down if you've got any better options. Assassins by contrast tend to flank, have extremely high target selection and burst, low team utility, lack constant survivability (instead relying on other tools like mobility, untargetability, stealth etc) and are usually great targets to kill if you can focus them. Combining those two categories risks creating very tanky, mobile champions with high CC/utility that set up their own kills, are extremely hard to take down and will happily chew through an entire team. When that goes wrong you get things like release Xin Zhao. When balanced you get a character that's ok at a lot of things, lacks clear strengths or weaknesses and isn't well distinguished from other similar champions (the fighter problem basically).

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

I could care less about lee in a game cause from my view he falls off to much late/mid game for him to ever be a threat in the game. I've had very few games where a Lee Sin actually carried. He just seems really easy to beat, his q's are very predictable. And somewhat easy to dodge. Thats justmy opinion as I never have Trouble when facing a Lee Sin.

BlackTh0ughtz1 votes

Never mad to see an enemy lee sin. He's not that strong

Dominick Destine1 votes

Lee has always scaled better than like 85% of the cast of characters.

People are just morons/biased/Lee mains; "Lee has bad scaling/Lee falls off" has always been bullshit.

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