I actually agree with hash here

Anime Fizz·Feb 13, 2019·6 votes·2,368 views

Prepare for nothing but tanks in top lane lol, making conqueror an cassio/ryze/azir rune lmao.

51 Comments

SithesisLordFeb 13, 20195 votes

God forbid mages/specialists have another rune to use. One that´s in a tree they barely choose, if at all, even as a secondary tree.

Cass and Ryze are unlikely to forgo Phase Rush for Conqueror. Comet Cass only functioned because of DOT poke. And new Conqueror can´t be stacked efficiently on her as DOTs maintain stacks, but doesn´t stack.

Ryze needs Phase Rush to kite people after using his root, so he´ll likely be crippling that just to get more AP.

Azir is mostly using Lethal Tempo nowadays, so him having more than just one rune in Precision to use is nice.

3 potential users, with only 2 being mages hardly qualify as Riot making it a mage rune, especially when most mages will still have better options.

The only mage that´s really very likely to use it to a rather decent degree of efficiency is one i saw no one mention: Orianna.

Nevertheless, new Conqueror is still a fighter rune, except now it's more like Fervor, actually requiring 1v1s and extended trades to occur, something Fighters excel at.

All you´ll see in regards to tanks are more viable choices rather than Sion. And Sion. And Sion. Oh, and Sion.

Conqueror should have been an adaptive rune from day 0. It's idiotic that in a system designed around adaptive stats there is only ONE rune not following that design.

The ranged/DOT/mage limitations imposed by the "rework" are abundant and fair.

Live Conqueror is an abomination of game design. New Conqueror not only opens up its use by more champions, but also doesn´t make an entire class irrelevant from champ select onwards.

There's a reason why Sion is the only actually, 100% viable tank with live Conqueror existing.

five oh tree Feb 13, 20194 votes

You're telling me that the champ who can get a conqueror stack every .75s with a point click ability ISN'T going to use it? Are you delusional? Conq cass will be 100% P/B top lane.

Ryze will take it top lane as well. He has a built in speed boost in his kit as well as a shield. They may be weak, but with conq he'll have enough damage that you can't afford to all-in him anyway.

Azir doesn't need it; you're correct. Hash was just being salty here.

New conqueror is a general use rune that's lackluster. It'll probably be decent on the skirmisher class.

You know who will actually like it? Marksman. Unless I'm mistaken, you no longer have to be melee to refresh it, which is the only reason they didn't take it before. Some of them still did! It will give them extra pen against tanks, extra healing, and extra ad to multiply with crit. Hurray.

SithesisLordFeb 13, 20193 votes

You're telling me that the champ who can get a conqueror stack every .75s with a point click ability ISN'T going to use it? Are you delusional? Conq cass will be 100% P/B top lane.

When the entirety of the Sorcery tree exists and is overall, much more useful than one single Keystone in Precision she can potentially use? No, she won´t use it. She has better options of keystone and minor runes, as does Ryze.

New conqueror is a general use rune that's lackluster.

People wanted Fervor back, they got Fervor back, but better. And somehow they still find a reason to complain because a few champions they don´t like very much have a very, VERY far from guaranteed chance of being able to use the rune. And even if they do, their overall efficiency will be much, much worse, as Precision/Sorcery leaves them with less options in Sorcery to pick from.

You know who will actually like it? Marksman. Unless I'm mistaken, you no longer have to be melee to refresh it

No, but by comparison, it's 3 seconds of duration, versus 8 seconds for melee. It's a fair enough limitation.

Some of them still did!

Literally just Draven, unless you´re counting the 50 or so games, amongst millions, with the MFs, Caitlyns, whatever ADCs where they mistakenly took Conqueror.

five oh tree Feb 14, 20192 votes

Late response here, but you brought up some fair points so I feel like I'm obligated to refute them.

When the entirety of the Sorcery tree exists and is overall, much more useful than one single Keystone in Precision she can potentially use? No, she won´t use it. She has better options of keystone and minor runes, as does Ryze.

She can still take sorcery secondary, my friend. The precision tree is not bad either; You've got % damage increases and tenacity coming out of it, so it's still attractive to most damage-centered champions.

People wanted Fervor back, they got Fervor back, but better. And somehow they still find a reason to complain because a few champions they don´t like very much have a very, VERY far from guaranteed chance of being able to use the rune. And even if they do, their overall efficiency will be much, much worse, as Precision/Sorcery leaves them with less options in Sorcery to pick from.

It's fervor, yes, but for all champs. It's no longer just the fighter rune. It is potentially better, but I believe it takes longer to stack.

Also: One less rune in sorcery won't be the end of the world. It's a tradeoff people are willing to make to shred through tanks top lane.

No, but by comparison, it's 3 seconds of duration, versus 8 seconds for melee. It's a fair enough limitation.

This is true, but think about how much easier it is to access someone to attack as a ranged champion. A melee can't always hit something to refresh his stacks, but a caitlyn (or other marksman) can probably keep tapping a tank throughout a fight if no better target presents itself.

Literally just Draven, unless you´re counting the 50 or so games, amongst millions, with the MFs, Caitlyns, whatever ADCs where they mistakenly took Conqueror.

I've seen some MFs intentionally take it, but fair enough. It is fairly specific to Draven.

Jayce too if you want to count him as a marksman half the time.

SithesisLordFeb 14, 20191 votes

She can still take sorcery secondary, my friend.

And forgo all three Sorcery keystones she uses considerably better, as well as a minor rune, which would either be Manaflow Band, Transcendence or Scorch/Gathering Storm.

The precision tree is not bad either; You've got % damage increases and tenacity coming out of it, so it's still attractive to most damage-centered champions.

A rune tree being attractive to them doesn´t take away from the fact they have better options. Tenacity against targeted hard CC could be good. But Cass could also just take Phase Rush, Nimbus Cloak and Celerity just to run away of the followup at Mach 10.

It's fervor, yes, but for all champs.

So just like old, on-hit Fervor but doesn´t stack on minions.

It's no longer just the fighter rune. It is potentially better, but I believe it takes longer to stack.

No, it still is a Fighter rune, but now more champions are given the option to take it.

Also: One less rune in sorcery won't be the end of the world. It's a tradeoff people are willing to make to shred through tanks top lane.

Except Cass isn´t shredding through anything in top lane the second her enemy laner finishes Adaptive Helm. Also, Void Staff is a thing, so if she needs to shred through tanks, it sure as hell isn´t going to be in laning phase.

This is true, but think about how much easier it is to access someone to attack as a ranged champion. A melee can't always hit something to refresh his stacks, but a caitlyn (or other marksman) can probably keep tapping a tank throughout a fight if no better target presents itself.

So just like Fervor.

I still don´t see the problem. More champs get to use the rune, like the rest of the system. Fighters actually need to be, y'know, FIGHTING people for longer to reap its benefits, tanks get a slightly longer end of the stick.

With new Conqueror, Riot won´t have to deal with the 7 abuse cases of live Conqueror, because most of the champ roster will become a potential, even if inefficient user of it.

ChaosReynFeb 14, 20191 votes

This change needed to happen.

You both have fair points, as does Hash, tbf...but now that this can be a more generalized effect that almost anyone can take (I'm very surprised nobody's looked at oldschool Hybrid KogMaw with this yet, btw...he was hands down the scariest Fervor champion of them all if he got even a little advantage) they can more properly look into the balance factors of exactly what the keystone is and isn't doing the way they'd like.

Which means that if this opens up the tank meta again, they can give tanks a nerf. But right now, it pretty much is just Sion, and the VERY occasional Mundo, that gets played as a genuine tank in top. I get why everyone fears the return of the tank meta...but I'd much rather see tanks other than these two start being played as tanks again than see the current meta of "AD assassin, ADC, AP "Support", AD Bruiser and AD jungler that's either assassin or bruiser."

If it brings back mages to a solo lane, that's a good bonus too. Right now the only solo lane mages I see anymore are LeBlanc, Veigar and the occasional Twisted Fate. two of those 3 can 100/0 a tank by level 8 for the rest of the game (LB probably sooner, cause her ratios are insane). The other one cheats at the game more than he cheats at cards, and just ganks other lanes until he's fed enough to send you to the shadow realm. >.>

Sir SaltarinFeb 13, 20191 votes

God forbid mages/specialists have another rune to use.

Exactly, mages shouldn't use other rune that is intended for bruisers.

SithesisLordFeb 14, 20191 votes

So why are Yasuo, Riven, Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, Jax and Draven using live Conqueror?

You said it yourself, it's a rune intended for bruisers and none of the champions is just mentioned qualify as bruisers by Riot's official definition of the class.

Riot was afraid of making it adaptive from Day 0 for fear of abuse cases, thus releasing it AD only.

And then proceeded to witness one marksman and 6 of the 7 Skirmishers in the game abuse the fuck out of it.

What´s 2, maybe 3 mages+a Specialist if we count Azir abusing PBE Conqueror compared to the 7 unintended users of live Conqueror?

Bears Dont CareFeb 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So why are Yasuo, Riven, Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, Jax and Draven using live Conqueror?

Yi, Jax, Tryndamere, and Fiora would all be better off utilizing PTA or Lethal tempo Fiora already has a ton of true damage and the AD increase isn't very necessary for her. Enhancing damage is so much better by comparison.

The only ones really using conq are riven, draven, and yasuo. Yasuo uses it since he builds crit and it means he does not need to immediately build armor pen and provides AD he doesnt possess

\

five oh tree Feb 13, 20194 votes

Careful what you post, friend. You must remember that you're on the boards; tanks and mages are weak and can do no wrong, and their mains are valiant players who one trick them purely for enjoyment.

Iota ThetaFeb 13, 20193 votes

Oh hey, his first point is literally the exact same argument people made about PTA being terrible for fighters because it requires multiple hits to proc. He also says about how minions don’t stack/proc or refresh it.

That is the entire point. The stacking and procing on minions is one of the issues with live conquerer. Why? Because a fighter just stacks it on minions and goes in for a burst of damage on their opponent and win the trade. It’s purpose is to be a sustained damage rune, not more burst. Heaven forbid a rune for a class who’s specialization is being in sustained fights with champions requires them actually be in sustained fights verse champions.

No, old Conquerer is too much. Honestly, Conquerer shouldn’t even have the true damage, focusing on sustaining users and ramping their damage. Current Conquerer allows a fighter to build to burst squishies and still win against tanks. If people don’t see that is an issue, I’ve lost hope for players. Fighter items can then be the focus for tank fighting, whether making current ones better or introducing new ones.

every tank has an escape

Ha..hahahahaha. No. Maokai, unless you count his Q, has no escape. If you count that, you have to count Jax E as an escape. Malphite has no escape outside using his ult. Rammus’s Q can be stopped. Galio E moves him the wrong way first and can be easily stopped. Sion has no escape outside his ult. Ornn does, but it’s his cast-time E. Zac has to charge up E to et any good distance away. Nunu, no escape.

Then he spends a few minutes berated someone who might dare try to argue. No, Hashinshin is wrong. This comes across as not someone who cares about balance, but someone who just wants his class to autowin. Who can afk push against minions, then jump into a fight and win.

Is he right on inconsistencies? Probably. But this change puts Conquerer more to what it should be, rewarding sustained fights, not to be purely a stack up on minions and kill tanks runes. Want to fix fighters vs tanks, since everything thinks tanks autowin (cause let’s just forget offense outscales defense...)? Focus on changing the items, or stinking build the items designed to fight tanks. Not run a rune that allows tank and squishy killing power.

Edit: so, thinking back, there has been steps made by Riot to improve combat against tanks. Don’t forget, tanks lost health and had their resists increased to further differentiate build paths and how they build defensive, claiming Juggernauts would be more health stackers than tanks. Since then:

item 3071 had armor shred reduced, the purpose was to balance out that resists were tanks main stats over health. It also took some adjustments since two marksmen love it. This is a shame, but understandable, since it’s shred and would increase all damage to the target.

item 3035 just got buffed to 20% total armor pen, which is stronger than the 35% bonus armor pen it had after it’s previous update (except maybe the 45%). item 3033 increases that to 25% total and adds GW to your target, great for healing tanks. item 3036 lost its health passive to gain 35% total armor pen.

For those that can use item 3135 , which would be more AP bruiser style, it also got a slight increase to 40% magic pen.

For hybrid champs like Jax, item 3124 received both the Last Whisper and Dissolve unique passives, granted both total armor pen and magic pen, scaling by level from 6.5-15%. It may not seem like as much, but it grants penetration on both damage types, and hybrids are already tougher to itemize against.

Akali is SO HOTFeb 14, 20191 votes

PTA is bad on bruisers though for that exact reason. The only champs that actually take that rune are Camille, Renekton, and Udyr because they can actually proc it almost instantly. It's ass on everyone else because they can't proc it right away.

AlienPrimateFeb 14, 20191 votes

You left out the best user of it. Shyvana can proc it with 2 auto attacks and the second one is an auto reset.

Iota ThetaFeb 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pb7WEaeE,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-02-14T05:44:37.744+0000)

PTA is bad on bruisers though for that exact reason. The only champs that actually take that rune are Camille, Renekton, and Udyr because they can actually proc it almost instantly. It's ass on everyone else because they can't proc it right away.

The biggest difference between the two runes on that front is how it’s stacked now. New Conquerer at least allows abilities, even if it currently is a bit inconsistent (which Riot should correct for fairness). Hashinshin’s complaint on this front boils down to him being upset that fighters can’t have the full effect for their full combo, yet that was one of two things with the rune that people hated, since it was stackable via minion combat. I have honestly yet to see a good argument as to why a rune designed for sustained combat is being criticized for proccing in and rewarding sustained combat.

ÔneWindyBoiFeb 13, 20192 votes

I do too, but posting on here that you agree with anything Hash says is going to get you nothing but downvotes. As a top laner for 6 years I agree with a lot of what Hash has to say about the game.

GlaricionFeb 13, 20193 votes

Name ONE thing wrong with tanks having spammable %hp abilities and decent cc.

That's right, you can't, and neither Riot Ponytail.

Don't @ me.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Moody PFeb 13, 20196 votes

the fact that they shouldn't have % damage at all

Iota ThetaFeb 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pb7WEaeE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-13T20:44:29.610+0000)

the fact that they shouldn't have % damage at all

This could almost be a full discussion thread on it’s own in regard to the merits and drawbacks. I’m on the opposite side and see some value, if done correctly. Sejuani and Amumu had it for years (Sejuani prior to her rework) and I don’t think anyone really complained about theirs. This could be factored into amount and application. Old Sejuani and Amumu had it on W and..Despair (I think that’s Amumu’s W? Don’t play him much), which were AoE over time and in small doses. Maokai’s got better when it shifted to E instead of being on his W. Ornn’s %current damage was healthier than his %max.

When on the surface, it makes sense for them to have it, for those tank vs tank matchups, without allowing them to have super high bases. The problem is when it doesn’t leave room for their opponent to trade in terms of reliance, or does too much damage in it’s use.

I think an issue is in their numbers/reliance/spamability on the ability with their % damage. Maokai’s is unreliable and a lower amount, Old Sejuani and Amumu need time to apply it. Ornn’s biggest issue is his got increased and is on his core spell that was also his defensive spell. I don’t think it’s quite right to say take it away from all tanks, because that would include tanks that weren’t actually issues with it. I think first is looking to see if it can be made better, before outright removing.

RalanrFeb 14, 20193 votes

So long as %damage has clear work arounds then imo it is fine. This is why I find Sion’s shield to be the best example of tank %damage, you can pop it before it blows or get out of the area, and if you can’t get out odds are it’s because you’re CCed which allows him to do that combo.

This is the same reason why I think off of Poppy’s Q %damage should be on the second proc rather than half on first, half on second.

Moody PFeb 14, 20191 votes

Sejuanis % damage was on the auto, the spin was flat damage.

It was also very spammy and before it got nerfed it was some ridiculous value like 12% lol

Iota ThetaFeb 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pb7WEaeE,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-02-14T19:48:41.470+0000)

Sejuanis % damage was on the auto, the spin was flat damage.

It was also very spammy and before it got nerfed it was some ridiculous value like 12% lol

Ah, so it was. I thought it was reversed, and that her own health scaling was the first part. My apologies, though the point still stands. It did eventually level out in having it’s power reduced then. You’re a proponent of reverting her to pre tank update, would you give that back to her?

Moody PFeb 14, 20192 votes

i considered old sejuani a bruiser and not a true tank on account of her lack of significant innate defenses (some shit armor value passive isn't much) as well as her high offensive acaling

but yes.

RalanrFeb 14, 20191 votes

Wait, does that make Amumu a bruiser because he doesn’t really have a defensive scaling?

Moody PFeb 14, 20191 votes

well amumu reduced autos by a flat amount on his E passive but yes I would consider him an AP bruiser as well

RalanrFeb 14, 20191 votes

So to be a tank you believe that they must have significant innate defenses?

Moody PFeb 14, 20191 votes

in relation to LOL yes I think "big defense" is now a defining trait of a tank

RalanrFeb 14, 20191 votes

So, then Maokai is not a tank because he has no innate defense, unless you count his heal, which if you do implies that Darius is a tank because he has that big heal.

Nunu doesn't have a big innate defense either, outside of maybe his ultimate, and unless you don't count the heal.

Zac also does not have a big innate defense outside of healing. Does this make him a bruiser over a tank?

I don't think big innate defense is the sole defining trait of a tank, Moody.

Moody PFeb 14, 20191 votes

I said "a" not "the"

most tanks combine humongous damage with consistent CC output (for new tanks anyway). Sejuani mainly had her R for her hard disable and the rest of her contribution was being a major damage threat and pumping out slows. I would call that a bruiser goal.

RalanrFeb 14, 20191 votes

Wasn't her Q always hard CC displacement though?

Iota ThetaFeb 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pb7WEaeE,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-14T20:24:10.147+0000)

i considered old sejuani a bruiser and not a true tank on account of her lack of significant innate defenses (some shit armor value passive isn't much) as well as her high offensive acaling

but yes.

Although she was always listed as a tank, even back then. She kind of blurred the lines, less durability, high damage, and tank level CC/utility (sadly what they did to Ornn, can we reverse them?)

Moody PFeb 14, 20191 votes

riot also classifies singed as a tank (still do on the client) and I wouldn't call that accurate

old tags don't really mean much imo and I think riot screwed up on trying to focus Sejuani and Zac into more "correct" tanks

Iota ThetaFeb 14, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pb7WEaeE,comment-id=000000000000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-02-14T20:39:36.286+0000)

riot also classifies singed as a tank (still do on the client) and I wouldn't call that accurate

old tags don't really mean much imo and I think riot screwed up on trying to focus Sejuani and Zac into more "correct" tanks

Touché.

I applaud them for the attempt at making them align more properly wth their class description, especially on a clarity front, and in Sej’s case, transferring power out of her ult into other skills. However, the implementation was flawed. Prior to their update, they didn’t properly fit any of the actual descriptions of the subclasses Riot set forth as their goals.

To be honest, pre-update I still always felt Sejuani was more tank than fighter because of her utility power. Her damage I never noticed as much, whereas my focus with her was always her initiation in her ult and Q, and slowing the enemy with W-E.

haaaaaaalpFeb 14, 20191 votes

Depends on how badly riot screws up. Last season, there was a point in time where even hashinshin videos were getting upvoted because top lane was in such a terrible state.

On My Kill ListFeb 13, 20191 votes

draven is gonna be nerfed like hell if new conqueror hits live. he's already abusing current conqueror even with its myriad of restrictions. new conqueror has basically no real restrictions on ranged other then a 3 second duration; which they too can refresh just like melee except easier. infact i'd say adcs will abuse new conqueror the most after a few mages like cass also break it.

AlzonFeb 13, 20191 votes

Current Conqueror fits his trading pattern perfectly. The new one won’t even come online during a trade. So no, Draven might actually be looking at buffs, not nerfs.

Moody PFeb 13, 20191 votes

he's still getting AD every auto, in fact he would get more now

Sir SaltarinFeb 13, 20191 votes

He should be nerfed anyway

FOR JUSTICEFeb 13, 20191 votes

can anyone confirm it if will even work with DoT's? if so then Teemo Cassiopeia Udyr Fizz Gangplank Mordekaiser Malzahar Singed Twitch Talon Darius are immediatley out of the question for it. same for people with item 2033

Akali is SO HOTFeb 13, 20191 votes

Dots are only 1 stack unless it's bugged. Basically, each button press/auto attack = one stack

PopcornBunniFeb 14, 20191 votes

Cass isn't out of the question. She can still mash E to stack it up. And Morde seems really strong with it actually. E Auto Q1 Q2 Q3 into true damage ult and massive heal on W.

ThisName1sDumbFeb 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pb7WEaeE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-02-13T21:14:07.403+0000)

can anyone confirm it if will even work with DoT's? if so then are immediatley out of the question for it. same for people with

I'm pretty sure I've seen from multiple sources that it doesn't get stacks off of things like Darius's bleed or Singed's poison trail, so presumably it's the same case for other damage over time things

FOR JUSTICEFeb 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure I've seen from multiple sources that it doesn't get stacks off of things like Darius's bleed or Singed's poison trail, so presumably it's the same case for other damage over time things

if thats the case then i dont really see a problem with new conq tbh.

AlienPrimateFeb 14, 20191 votes

If you actually watched the video you would see the problem with the new conqueror. The problem is that champions who spam spell casts can stack it considerably faster and keep it stacked better than the intended users of conqueror. Ryze can fully stack it in a little over 1 second. Meanwhile Tryndamere has to spin in and use 4 auto attacks before it is stacked. The problem isn't that it will be strong on champions with damage over time which again is described in the video as not being the case. The problem is that it will be weak on most of the champions who currently rely on its use and a lot of them will probably go back to using grasp if the change goes through.

PopcornBunniFeb 14, 20191 votes

Considering Tryndamere spends all game spinning in and autoing 20 times with his ult, you're drastically overstating him being weak with it.

AlienPrimateFeb 14, 20191 votes

Mid-late game it will be fine. It won't be nearly as strong on him in lane though when compared to the current proccing on the first auto and then spinning away with true damage for short trades. It will be almost completely useless in lane now.

Pandemic PunchFeb 14, 20191 votes

I like how Darius is in the thumbnail when he doesn't even need conqueror at all

PopcornBunniFeb 14, 20191 votes

How many consecutive attacks to reach its true damage and heal... hmm

Jhin 1 Jhin two Jhin Three Jhin FOUR ...

Annie Five!

Critmaster GarenFeb 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

How many consecutive attacks to reach its true damage and heal... hmm

1 two Three FOUR ...

Five!

5 spells and attacks. so he could stack it with q and w before his 4th shot.

Irelia BotFeb 14, 20191 votes

What if Riot is trying to make marksmen and mage players happy since most of the fighter, tank and assassin players already quit?

Honestly should have been 6 stacks with slightly lower adaptive force per stack but melee autos count as 2 stacks.

BjørnetjenestenFeb 14, 20191 votes

Hashinshin is the league/streamer equivalent of Fox news. He spouts a lot of dishonest bullshit that only serves himself. People who listen to this guy and takes him seriously are fucking morons that need to start thinking for themselves.

This video by Minishcap1 perfectly explains everything wrong with his statements about the meta, balance and game in general.

I mean who the fuck uses streaming viewrate as an argument to buff bruisers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y72WWPVjyc