DO NOT BUFF KAYLE

Anime Fizz·Mar 10, 2019·124 votes·22,826 views

Please riot, do not give in to the silver players crying about her "being too weak" (every time i see the "make her E last for 3 aas" oh god it triggers me)

Shes at 48% wr right now which isnt terrible for a champ that is really weak early game, and she has a 52% wr in the KR servers so DO NOT BUFF HER, her early game IS supposed to be weak because if it wasant that champ would have 0 counterplay.

If shes going to be like one of the hardest scaling champs in the game she cannot have any better early game, now if you want to make her better early game that is fine, as long as some of her late game power is cut (like want to make her ranged at lvl 6? Fine, but lvl 16 true damage upgrade has to go completely).

That aside, please, stop buffing every single new rework or new champ until they become impossible to play against (the neeko and sylas buffs recently were out of this fcking world).

151 Comments

Lord Scorch 62Mar 10, 201943 votes

kayle is perfectly balanced right now, maybe with a few changes to her late game power. but the real reason she is so "feast or famine" is due to the meta she is in.

in a meta where games go beyond 30+ on average and snowball champs need more then 2 early kills to hit their power-spike, kayle would be the same kind of "win condition" champ like Nasus Yorick or Veigar .

however, we live in a meta right now where games are decided by 7-10 mins into the game. and the term "late-game" has been replaced by the word "ff".

i think it would be next too pointless to try and balance her right now, just leave her as a risky-as-all-get-out pick until the meta shifts to a more late game focus.

Abibyama IIMar 10, 201920 votes

kayle is perfectly balanced right now

Inb4 aS aLl tHiNgS sHoUlD bE

WacingTheFindMar 10, 201912 votes

unexpected Thanos

FSRERMar 10, 201916 votes

Well.....the only problem i have is her lvl 16. I have seen kayles being like 0/1/3 at 25 mins and having 200+ farm and being like 14 or 15 lvl and then descending from toplane and 1 shooting every 13 lvl they see. How about that true damage change it to armor and magic penetration? That would be better

Lord Scorch 62Mar 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Well.....the only problem i have is her lvl 16. I have seen kayles being like 0/1/3 at 25 mins and having 200+ farm and being like 14 or 15 lvl and then descending from toplane and 1 shooting every 13 lvl they see. How about that true damage change it to armor and magic penetration? That would be better

agree 100%. no real need for true damage, it just feels like a "winning more" kind of thing for her at 16.

on hit would still be huge for her damage, but not so much that she will obliterate hard tanks before they can get combos off in teamfights.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 15, 20191 votes

She does hardly any true damage, but I would rather they remove the true damage (as what's the point in mr/armor shred on Q ) and instead make it deal more magic damage at lvl 16.

RagnaveilMar 10, 201910 votes

Here's the thing: Vayne and Kayle both had weak early games and strong late games. Vayne got her early buffed to have her late game come online earlier (Q has a lower base cd on top of the R change) Kayle however has even worser early game, and cant on average game length reach that 16 sweetspot, but the change isn't that strong on its own.

ParoeMar 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Here's the thing: Vayne and Kayle both had weak early games and strong late games. Vayne got her early buffed to have her late game come online earlier (Q has a lower base cd on top of the R change) Kayle however has even worser early game, and cant on average game length reach that 16 sweetspot, but the change isn't that strong on its own.

You know what that is? Melee bias. Critmaster garen has a very well worded argument on that front, where melee champions are bent over backwards to make sure they have counterplay while ranged champions rarely have much counterplay.

Kayle is a melee champion up until level 11... where she loses much of her counter play that she had as a melee champion and come level 16 all of her weaknesses are fixed, allowing her to focus entirely on right clicking a team to death as one of the most fun hyper carries in the game.

RagnaveilMar 10, 20194 votes

Not really in terms of Kayle's situatuon. She's just generally bad pre 11 just to give her a permanent attack speed boost and true damage on the waves. Its kinda unnecessary and overkill, and also kinda ruins a few builds and items she would want to grab.

ParoeMar 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Not really in terms of Kayle's situatuon. She's just generally bad pre 11 just to give her a permanent attack speed boost and true damage on the waves. Its kinda unnecessary and overkill, and also kinda ruins a few builds and items she would want to grab.

Er... Yes really. Pre 11 kayle has so much counterplay its scary - its one of the reasons why the whole "shes not a champion" meme is so poignant. Its also why shes so well designed; Kayle is a hyper carry with a healthy power curse. Post 11 Kayle is just like any on-hit marksman.
Post 16 kayle is a hyper carry.

What builds are ruined by her being exalted at level 16, by the way?

RagnaveilMar 10, 20191 votes

Rageblade semi hybrid build. It only gives AS ramp up and that's it. The Pen on Q and the item are worthless due to the fact she's mainly gonna auto, and those waves do true damage.

Sire HippingtonMar 10, 20194 votes

The wave is just half of her in-kit on-hit damage, so the majority of her damage still benefits from the hybbrid pen.

J EevoMar 10, 201917 votes

I'd honestly say her lategame is too strong if anything, and since she's struggling early it wouldn't hurt to even out the curve a little by making her better early/mid and worse late.

BadPiriPiriMar 10, 20197 votes

She is a hyper carry, I think she should have the weakest early game in the game if she has the best late game.

Romans VI XXIIIMar 15, 20191 votes

Yas and vayne are also hyper carries. But they dont have weak early game by any means.

BadPiriPiriMar 17, 20191 votes

Yeah but that shouldn't happen.

A hypercarry should be able to win lane if more skilled but they should have a hard time in the early stages in the game.

Because if that happens why pick a early game champ instead of a hypercarry with a lot better late game

LordGeovanniMar 10, 20191 votes

Nasus and Veigar got buffs to make their early not punishable though.

Lord Scorch 62Mar 11, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Nasus and Veigar got buffs to make their early not punishable though.

true, but really the only buff i would think to give kayle early is a way to make her farming a BIT safer.

but overall, i am a fan of the idea of giver her the vayne treatment; even-out her scaling where her laning is not as bad, and her late game is not as fuck-off strong.

LordGeovanniMar 15, 20191 votes

I dont think Kayle needs buffs i think people need to play smarter. I think she needs to lose some of the stats she has. If she needs a buff id increase her Q base damage and lower its cooldown after lowering just about everything else she has Her attack speed stack her Movement speed from stacks her on hit magic damage her spells scalings removing the true damage part. Lowering the movement speed she gets from w and the duration it lasts. Lowering the shred she gets from Q and the duration it lasts (removing the physical part so that she doesnt have that innate hybrid that they put on her kit in season 5 just because not like she cant just build it back with black cleaver)

LordGeovanniMar 15, 20191 votes

I dont know when Vayne ever got that kind of change.

Radio DaddyMar 11, 20193 votes

It's really hard for me to place her into the same area as Veigar or Nasus, solely due to fact she scales with levels and they scale with stacks. Like in Nasus mindset "Every second I spent trying to be with my team is a second wasted not stacking" or something along those lines, but I still agree with you 100%

ΟskarMar 11, 20193 votes

and again, a silver player making a post thats so wrong. Kalye loses pretty much every matchup on toplane. Games are decided before she hits level 11 (she becomes relevant ONLY after level 11). and im talking about high elo which you have no clue about

RagnaveilMar 10, 201929 votes

You can buff her just by shifting how her power is laid out. Does she really need this true damage? Not really. Does she need this very, very passive early game? Not really. So then you weakening the strong half and buff the weak half without the late half being super busted (true damage being removed in this case).

Then again, she just came out. Unless something breaks her late game, i'd wait a bit before shifting the power. This is something they should have done for Aatrox, Irelia and Akali before they gained such a status that required all of them to be gutted just for work to be done to them. Same with Urgot.

Titanium70Mar 10, 20193 votes

The Ture DMG is an important tool to balanc eout her builds.

Having she has a Natural Anitscaling with Penetration. Allowing her Q to have such cary Shreds. Removing it would heavily impact her build options and maybe even her playstyle. Not a good idea or very likely to happen.

RagnaveilMar 10, 20192 votes

The pen by itself is nuts. Even if phantom hit doesn't work with her waves, she could buy rageblade and still melt people who didn't buy resists or got nailed by her q.

The true damage is...kinda odd, if anything maybe half of the wave's damage or 25% of it should be converted into true damage.

ParoeMar 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

The pen by itself is nuts. Even if phantom hit doesn't work with her waves, she could buy rageblade and still melt people who didn't buy resists or got nailed by her q.

The true damage is...kinda odd, if anything maybe half of the wave's damage or 25% of it should be converted into true damage.

to be honest id rather her level 16 be quality of life rather than true damage. Like giving her waves a greivous wounds or giving her life gain on hit.

RagnaveilMar 10, 20191 votes

Or increase the ratios on the wave. E just gives a tiny amount of base damage to it. The reason why the ratios are low is due to 16's conversion. The fact this kills any use for rageblade hurts her hybrid capabilities. This in turn can increase her healing since she'll be able to heal more from the waves despite the reduction for AOE since it wont be low amounts of true damage but magic damage that will have more damage.

ParoeMar 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Or increase the ratios on the wave. E just gives a tiny amount of base damage to it. The reason why the ratios are low is due to 16's conversion. The fact this kills any use for rageblade hurts her hybrid capabilities. This in turn can increase her healing since she'll be able to heal more from the waves despite the reduction for AOE since it wont be low amounts of true damage but magic damage that will have more damage.

What if she just got double waves instead? Shes got two swords after all.

Z3SleeperMar 12, 20191 votes

How does it kill rageblade? It still gives hybrid pen for literally all her other damage, ramping AS and phantom hit for Nashors, Rageblade and her E passive.

Plus if you didn’t know, spellvamp procs on true damage as single target damage, regardless of whether it’s single target or AoE.

So taking Ravenous heals you for 15% of all true damage dealt, flat, no AoE reduction. Same goes for DD and Hextech Gunblade with true damage.

RagnaveilMar 12, 20191 votes

Im not a genius. I should have mentioned I haven't been able to play new Kayle due to my internet issue, so I was mainly guess suggesting. If I was able, things would be said much differently. I will say imo, the true damage kinda feels out of place with the pen on her Q. That will change once I play her and get a general understanding.

Z3SleeperMar 12, 20191 votes

Eh it's like building shred or penetration on a fighter running Conqueror. Sucks that it doesn't synergize but true damage is true damage, can't complain.

RagnaveilMar 12, 20191 votes

Conq can use that stat even though it doesn't sync well. Reducing a target's armor increases the phys damage you do to them. That is known. Conq converts 10% of the damage you deal into true damage, meaning if you lower the armor of the opponent more, the more phys damage gets converted into true damage.

Z3SleeperMar 12, 20191 votes

Haha not how it works my friend.

Conq takes the premitigated (before armor) physical damage and converts it to true damage, THEN does the armor reduction for the physical portion.

So 100 Physical w/ Conq vs 100 Armor Physical portion = (100 * 0.9) * (50%) = 45 True portion = (100 * 0.1) = 10

55 damage total.

If it was after mitigation, it'd be 50, but that would make no sense and be completely useless lol.

RagnaveilMar 12, 20191 votes

Well, ima just be honest: It isn't worded that well in the Rune's description. It only mentions pre-mitigation for the healing part.

BrightWîngsMar 10, 201915 votes

I agree 100% shes that trash early for a reason lol Im having honestly zero issues with the champion. Ive gone up against these champions so far Riven Nasus Aatrox Malphite and haven't had a MASSIVE issue dealing with them obviously shit aint exactly fun cuz I cant really do much to fight back but again thats kinda the point.

MrNockosMar 10, 201911 votes

In all honesty the only big issue with Kayle is her true damage at level 16. Riot seems to have an incredible liking towards true damage.

DustparticalMar 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In all honesty the only big issue with Kayle is her true damage at level 16. Riot seems to have an incredible liking towards true damage.

It's because before this meta was a tank meta and a lot of people got tired of it and so I guess they think people hate tanks now? #deathToAllTanks! But for real I'd much rather prefer seeing this dmg drop across the board and some of this true dmg shit go away.

MrNockosMar 11, 20191 votes

Tank metas are the most balanced in my opinion. When you have a tank that a team can play around, it really emphasizes team play and shows higher skill expression than doing big damage.

If Riot wants to make LCS have flashier plays, just make the abilities flashier.

I happen to play another MOBA called Smite. Apart from a few gods, the game is fairly balanced and tanks don't get nuked in .2 seconds (unless they are behind or building wrong). Their SPL is also entertaining to watch because abilities are flashy without being overloaded.

I think there should be more defensive buffs and maybe some form of armor or resolve rune to counter or nullify true damage.

DustparticalMar 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Tank metas are the most balanced in my opinion. When you have a tank that a team can play around, it really emphasizes team play and shows higher skill expression than doing big damage.

If Riot wants to make LCS have flashier plays, just make the abilities flashier.

I happen to play another MOBA called Smite. Apart from a few gods, the game is fairly balanced and tanks don't get nuked in .2 seconds (unless they are behind or building wrong). Their SPL is also entertaining to watch because abilities are flashy without being overloaded.

I think there should be more defensive buffs and maybe some form of armor or resolve rune to counter or nullify true damage.

I 100% i think the problem is everybody wanted to play the carry role or at least thats how I remember the last tank meta I was in. It felt the most balance out of all the metas too.

ImbetterthanmoeMar 10, 20197 votes

The only way to buff her properly is by improving her early game and weakening her late game

please riot just make her a champion that can actually play in 20 minute games instead of just farming and losing cause you had no kill participation

deltemp951512Mar 10, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iT7ArWZN,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-10T15:25:30.481+0000)

Please riot, do not give in to the silver players crying about her "being too weak"

Rank shaming is not allowed.

Probs feedingMar 10, 20193 votes

I'm a little late, so idk if this will actually get read, but -

I've been putting some time into Kayle. At first, my thoughts were "whats the point of being a lategame powerhouse if your early game is so bad, your whole team is miles behind by 30 minutes anyway?"

But after a bit of practice and playing around with builds, I'd say shes just fine right now. If anything, MAYBE lower mana costs by like 10 and thats it. With practice, I've gotten to the point of at least putting up a good fight in most lanes, and actually winning some. (which btw if you ever win lane as Kayle, the game basically just ends when she hits 11)

**Conclusion ** She really don't need a buff. If they want to make her feel better in the early game, all she needs is VERY SMALL QoL changes and thats it.

VoldjawMar 11, 20193 votes

The only thing about Kayle I'd like to have changed is the feeling of an extremely underwhelming early game and an overly overpowered late game. Yes, Kayle is meant to be that way, but it feels far too extrem. A little shift to a more consistant early and a slightly worse late would be ideal!

Hemulen MagiMar 10, 20192 votes

I don't think she should be straight buffed right now either, but she could have her current power budget adjusted within her kit. I think she should have tools to actually interact in laning when she's still melee instead. Right now, she's too incentivized to try to entirely avoid her opponent and stall for lategame. I don't think that's healthy. Old Kayle had the same issue, but she also had a workaround via strong waveclear which helped her avoid interacting -- that was unhealthy too.

Here are some ideas to let Kayle actually do stuff in laning as a melee champion:

I think Kayle's Q could have a short ranged dash tied to it, like this: Tap Q: current functionality Hold Q for the 0.5 second cast delay: Fly/dive forward in the Q target direction.

Her W's base heal should be changed to 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 30% AP) +7% target's missing health in order to help her heal back up after melee trades and to further encourage her to pick up a couple health items to survive early on.

Her ultimate cooldown should be slightly lowered at early ranks. COOLDOWN: ~~160 ~~**120 / ~~120 ~~100 **/ 80

For context, this is what the cooldown was pre-rework: COOLDOWN: 100 / 90 / 80 And it used to cost 0 mana and she could attack during its effect. So while her ultimate did get significantly buffed with its new AOE damage effect, it did come with certain tradeoffs already, and I think the cooldown scaling with ranks is too steep right now.

Here's what she could lose in exchange for those buffs:

INNATE - ZEALOUS: Kayle's basic attacks against non-structures grant 6% bonus attack speed for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times for a maximum of 30% bonus attack speed. ~~At maximum stacks, Kayle becomes Exalted, gaining 15% bonus movement speed when moving toward enemies.~~

ARISEN - LEVEL 11: Kayle becomes a ranged champion with ~~550~~ **500 **attack range. Additionally, Zealous's bonus attack speed is increased to 10% bonus attack speed per stack, for a maximum of 50% bonus attack speed.

TRANSCENDENT - LEVEL 16: Zealous is set to maximum stacks. ~~Additionally, Aflame's fiery waves now deal true damage.~~

Summary:

Kayle trades a lot of power in her ascension for tools to function as a melee champion with her base kit. She gains the ability to engage/disengage with her Q as melee, which can be used as a re-positioning tool after becoming ranged. She gains a small healing incentive to build some health for survival while melee; this also gives her a unique niche at being decent at healing allied tanks. Her ultimate cooldown is lowered at early ranks, but remains longer than pre-rework. To pay for these buffs, Kayle loses the movement speed on Exalted, has her Arisen range reduced to the same as 's range, and loses her Transcendent true damage. Another change that might be good is to further reduce her Arisen ranged to level, but make her E cooldown drastically reduced by being Arisen and let E keep its current 550 range (or be slightly increased to near Q range).

AirKingNeoMar 10, 20191 votes

Old kayle was plenty interactive.

Hemulen MagiMar 10, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Old kayle was plenty interactive.

It was usually only interactive for a maximum of one side. If she was against an immobile melee player, then yeah, she could poke them away from CS without them being able to retaliate if that counts as 'interaction'. If she was in a hard lane matchup, then her default was to just sit back and try to shove waves with her E, which was not interacting with her lane opponent.

By the way, I know you well enough to know that it's pointless discussing with you. I like that you don't go along with common opinions frequently, but you usually don't add anything valuable to a discussion either. It's hard to tell if you're incredibly arrogant with poor social skills or if you just enjoy shitposting (which is cool with me).

MoonscourgeMar 10, 20191 votes

I won and kinda carried with her, BUT I HAVE YET TO REACH LEVEL 16 LOL

Or see her reach level 16.. starting to think it's impossible!

Anime FizzMar 10, 201917 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iT7ArWZN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-10T15:46:00.666+0000)

I won and kinda carried with her, BUT I HAVE YET TO REACH LEVEL 16 LOL

Or see her reach level 16.. starting to think it's impossible!

She becomes very strong starting lvl 11.

If you're not too far behind at that point you can start carrying the game, lvl 16 is just basically "i win you cant counterbuild me anymore".