Everyone on reddit calling him "no damage and weak", and we have seen what happens every single time after that happens, champs gets buffed while he was already OP but nobody knew how to play him so then he becomes giga broken for months.
Give him some time, please no kneejerk buffs to his whole kit like it happened to yuumi, for the love of god.
BlackKnightJack28 votesFrom what I'm seeing the problem is that there's very little damage on his E when people were expecting there to be a lot. He definitely does the same damage, but it appears to have been shifted almost entirely onto his Q. If he actually received any buff to his E he'd be unbearable to lane against considering the invincibility he gets.
Ventira9 votesFrom what I'm seeing the problem is that there's very little damage on his E when people were expecting there to be a lot. He definitely does the same damage, but it appears to have been shifted almost entirely onto his Q. If he actually received any buff to his E he'd be unbearable to lane against considering the invincibility he gets.
Indeed. If anything, lower invincibilty and up the damage to appease the damage loving clowns over on reddit. But not by much.
crippler383 votesAgreed, once people (including me) realize that you basically have to get an empowered Q off whenever you can afford it after maybe the first strike to get your keystone (Conq or PTA) triggered with your W (which also sets your Q up to be empowered in two autos) and internalize it, the damage gets gross.
EDIT: Especially since according to the Wiki his E does like, little more than an auto attack in damage.
BlackKnightJack2 votesAs I recall, its damage is exactly that of an auto without it being empowered.
Ralanr5 votesI don't get where people were expecting his E to hurt. His old E never felt that impactful when I mained him up to season 5. And with the defense mechanic, the damage is more or less a bonus.
J Eevo4 votesOld e had the crit when target is low thing though, and could wave clear, new one is actually a dps loss
Z3SIeeper4 votesHis old E could never crit unless ur talking about the Q and auto thing, which he still kinda has on his Q.
Anyway, here's old E and new E damage:
Old 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 (+ 300% bonus AD)
New 55 / 105 / 155 / 205 / 255 (+ 150% bonus AD) +100%/166% AD
New one unempowered deals more damage at almost every stage of the game (until you have enough AD to make 300% bonus > 150% bonus +100% total, which takes quite a bit). Assuming at least 1 adaptive force rune, it deals 125 (+150% bonus AD) physical damage at level 1 rank 1 unempowered w/ no items.
The empowered version out-damages the old one at all stages of the game.
The new one does require hitting that shield slap for the majority of its damage though (but you can reactivate to end earlier and you can move with it as well).
But yes, it is in fact a DPS loss because it's being done at double the duration (overall a little less than half the old DPS).
Also the new one waveclears better (old had 60% reduced to minions, new has 50% and as stated above deals overall more damage over the duration while also not having any reduced effect on the slam portion).
J Eevo3 votesThe crit thing I mentioned was this
PASSIVE - CERTAIN DEATH: Pantheon's basic attacks and Spear Shot Spear Shot Critical strike icon critically strike all enemies Health icon below 15% maximum health.
which used to be on his E(you could argue a part of it is on his Q but it doesn't count as a crit, is only on the throw and has different breakpoints) but he completely lost the crit synergy and guaranteed crit autos.
And you're terribly mispresenting the E because while you're showing the correct numerical values, you forgot that this damage gets spread out throughout the duration, and the new E has a longer duration than the old one.(you can basically just take the value and add a +100% bAD with a situational +200%bAd as he will get to smack down an auto attack in the time the new one is still going on even with no as items, and will sometimes even crit because of the old passive)
If you compared the same time frame for doing damage, the New E is worse at every respect if you factor in that after Eing you resume autoing, and if the target is low at that point you also might go into the automatic AA crit territory.
Seilleas4 votesFrom what I'm seeing the problem is that there's very little damage on his E when people were expecting there to be a lot. He definitely does the same damage, but it appears to have been shifted almost entirely onto his Q. If he actually received any buff to his E he'd be unbearable to lane against considering the invincibility he gets.
what....that shit does like 700 damage usually, you just dont see it because most of it is in the last big hit after
WraithSlayer011 votesFrom what I'm seeing the problem is that there's very little damage on his E when people were expecting there to be a lot. He definitely does the same damage, but it appears to have been shifted almost entirely onto his Q. If he actually received any buff to his E he'd be unbearable to lane against considering the invincibility he gets.
He's old q hits harder. the only exception is late game empowered q.
Goon Wale1 votesDoes the same damage you say? Lol all you bronzies complaining about the new pantheon. He does less damage than before and his ONLY strong points are lane phase and 1v1s. His q does like 40 damage after passing through a minion at lvl 1 and up to lvl 8 it does about 80-90 dmg after passing through a minion so all you do if you're playing a melee champ is play safe and you win. After lane phase granted he's not extremely fed he does nothing in teamfights. No damage and not very tanky his e lasts about 3 seconds that's it then he's dead. I built full pen and my q did as much dmg as a karma shield lol y'all are complaining about nothing.
enshine19 votesi n v i n c i b i l i t y on a B A S I C A B I L I T Y
BlackKnightJack2 votesDoesn't really mean much when the damage you do with it is virtually non-existent. It's like a Zhonya's you can still be CCd under since you can move and all.
Ralanr6 votesPlus in teamfights all it takes is someone getting behind you to fuck you over. Or just hitting you from a direction not in front. AoE's and CC royally fuck him.
Sewer Side13 votes22 second CD btw
Vulnerable from behind btw
Heavy self slow btw
80 mana cost on a low mana champ btw
Only does 1 auto’s worth of damage over 1.5 seconds btw. Worse when empowered, BY THE WAY.
preternatural3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-08-16T08:29:59.569+0000)
22 second CD btw
Vulnerable from behind btw
Heavy self slow btw
80 mana cost on a low mana champ btw
Only does 1 auto’s worth of damage over 1.5 seconds btw. Worse when empowered, BY THE WAY.
sounds like any other champion who's defensive ability goes on CD for over 20 seconds.
ImTheJuggernauty9 votesEverybody complains about the dumbest of things. Panth's new E is actually pretty awesome and 10X cooler than the old one.
On My Kill List2 votesEverybody complains about the dumbest of things. Panth's new E is actually pretty awesome and 10X cooler than the old one.
i agree his e is good but pantheon has no passive now? is it me or im i the only person seeing this issue here? pantheons old passive was actually pretty good;not as good as his current e but it was good enough. but now he has no passive technically. since its just a description of his enhanced spell mechanic.
Ekhasm2 votesOnly when he faces you...
Sewer Side10 votesI mean, he is weak though.
The fact you can dash/flash his W is also ridiculous.
The fact bruiser build only works (bruiser builds work on everyone who’s garbage, even release Elise) is a testament how gutted his damage is.
He lost his lane bully status and got nothing in exchange for late game. I don’t want lane bully Panth back, but I definitely want to do something late game.
Daddy Ants5 votesGive him 2-3 weeks before you consider buffs please, Riot.
Flemman5 voteshis W is bugged, they need to fix that first
Hilsun1 votesWhat's bugged about it? :0
CRIMSONFKR2 votesYou can dash blink out of and not get stun, when pre rework panth w stun even if you dash, blink away.
It really hurt him alot against some of the popular rop laners atm, make his ganks weak and hurt him in the damage department if you try to use empowered w.
Hilsun1 votesOh. :< I haven't even noticed that. It must not have happened to me yet. That does really hurt him.
Rıots Bad Client4 votesI feel as if it happens every time.
X champion is Weak.
*Riot will buff everything In that champions Kit.
WOW... YOU GUYS SHOULD HAVE WAITED BEFORE BUFFING... SEE ... Hes broken.
Riot will remove things in the kit rather reverting some of the buffs.
Is shit Buff till broken in one patch IS broken People complain that he always has be like this before the buffs.
Toxic Teeto4 votesI still dont wanna deal with him :(
Hi im 124 votespantheon is weak af, I got 1v1ed by the 1-7 darius as a 8-2 pantheon, the problem is pantheon got a new defensive tool while losing damage, thing is he never really did much damage and has close to no utility so he lost the only thing he really did. once you do nothing it doesn't matter how good your defensive tools are.
PS: his new ult is a lot fucking worse than the old one
tfw you cash in on the downvotes but none of em has any arguments
AS I LAY FEEDING4 votes[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-08-16T13:31:25.843+0000)
pantheon is weak af, I got 1v1ed by the 1-7 darius as a 8-2 pantheon, the problem is pantheon got a new defensive tool while losing damage, thing is he never really did much damage and has close to no utility so he lost the only thing he really did. once you do nothing it doesn't matter how good your defensive tools are.
PS: his new ult is a lot fucking worse than the old one
Toplane is such a shit show. Darius is a joke of a champion if you get hit by the outer Q, he wins like every fight regardless how fed you are. I fcking hate "draintanks" in top. I play a bunch of sylas when i go for the kill on renekton/darius, they presses Q their health bar is full again.
Hi im 129 votesI play a bunch of sylas when i go for the kill on renekton/darius, they presses Q their health bar is full again.
this seems a little hypocritical lmao
ImTheJuggernauty2 votesDarius blows against competent opponents. Your own fault if you get hit by his slow telegraphed Q. He has zero mobility and low range, and zero defensive tools. He has to actually land his skill shot to heal (unlike say, adcs who can't miss when lifestealing, or champs like aatrox with so much sustain against champs AND minions in ALL of his damage sources). In a fight between equal players, champs like jax and aatrox will destroy darius. Can't say how many times I've actually managed to land all my abilities against an aatrox when even or better in items, why juking half his kit, and I still don't even manage to bring him below 50% hp before he wipes me.
Also your claim about darius pressing and his hp being full is complete and utter horseshit you moron. He heals based on % MISSSING HP. Meaning he can NEVER heal up 100% on Q alone, because the heal is only decent when hitting one target, pretty good when hitting 2 or 3, but capped at three. Meaning he will NEVER heal even CLOSE to his full hp bar even with spirit visage. If he already has 90% hp, then the most he will heal is around 4.5-5.% hp IF HE MANAGES TO LAND Q on three morons at once.
Considering how slow, telegraphed, and short ranged he is, against so much mobility, range, insane damage, and cc, and his own inability to dodge cc, he will rarely get a three man Q in a game unless outrageously ahead or in an extremely favorable comp matchup. He will normally land a three man Q like 1-3 times in a game. And then still proceed to blow up instantly afterword.
Plus the irony of you bullshit is not lost on me. Sylas himself has insane heal, a shield, solid mobility, longer ranged abilities than darius or renekton, the ability to steal ultimates, pretty dang high damage, and solid cc. So quit you're moaning about darius. You literally play a champ just as strong, if not stronger than darius overall. Darius doesn't even break 50% winrate. Fricken whiners.
Hi im 122 voteshe doesn't know about darius getting a confirmed q from e lmao
Vlada Cut4 votesNerf his early, give bonus ad scaling on W and increase the edge hitbox of his E. Boom, problem fixed, isn't as toxic early and is actually impactful late game besides being a CC peel bot.
Wild Geese4 votesI wouldn't buff his damage yet, but his mana stats should probably be buffed quite a bit, they didn't change them and since he's not the same his mana is more of a problem, since he doesn't execute on autoattacks and he has more spell roation.
This is doubly the case for Jungle Pantheon, who has lost twice as much winrate than lane pantheon. Fix his mana and see what happens from there.
nm10103 votesTiamat cancels his E ending animation, effectively making w, q, auto, e, instant e tiamat, auto, empowered q with ignite a kill combo from 0 stacks in the span of a couple seconds.
Metal Janna3 votesYuumi actually was hella weak on release. They massively overdid it with 5% buff to every part of her kit though.
Karn Bishop3 votesThe Yuumi buffs were not kneejerk, she has never gone above a 50% winrate at any point in her release history, your confusing frusterating to vs with too strong just like people who whine about yasuo do.
Snowbrand2 votesPantheon isn't a high skillceiling champ tho, that's the big difference
preternatural2 votesPantheon isn't a high skillceiling champ tho, that's the big difference
he is now.
Snowbrand4 voteshe is now.
no he isn't, not like irelia, yuumi, akali, aatrox and so on. He is more like mordekaiser
ImTheJuggernauty3 votesAnd irelia, akali, and aatrox are super busted when even slightly overbuffed. They make the game worse with excessive mechanics, not better.
ImTheJuggernauty1 votesSkill ceiling should not determine a champs power contribution in a game. The reward of playing a skill champ is the mastery itself and finally unlocking it enough to become viable. Theoretically speaking, in a perfectly balanceable game, all champs have the same contribution potential regardless of simplicity or complexity, but they should of course be able to contribute in different ways.
Sadly that's not the case, as skill champs are generally superior to others once mastered.
ChaddyFantome1 votesIf there is no benefit to playing a more complexe champ, than that champ is a gimmick. You can argue about the degree, but more complexe champs should always have SOME kind of reason to play them over less complexe ones. Period. And that's okay.
ImTheJuggernauty1 votesAgain, my point is that they should have the same potential. Champions should never be arguably better at their highest potential than other champs. While it's virtually impossible to make them 100% equal, the goal should be to make them incredibly close.
So my point is, skill champs should be such that until you master them, they suck hardcore. Only when mastered should they be viable in ranked. That's not a gimmick. Again, the satisfaction is in the mastery. It's much like anything in life, where expressing skill and mastery is rewarding in and of itself, much like skateboarding or karate, or painting. Most people won't make a living off those things, but many still take pride in being GOOD at them.
JustDonnyy1 votesReworks can only be either incredibly strong or unplayable weak. There is no in the middle.
MMM Monster kill1 votesReworks can only be either incredibly strong or unplayable weak. There is no in the middle.
Pantheon didn't need a rework in the first place. It was a simple champ, very strong early game, falls of late but stil useful. And he offered counterplay. I don't see any reason for a rework.
preternatural3 votes[{quoted}](name=MMM Monster kill,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2019-08-17T11:24:28.412+0000)
Pantheon didn't need a rework in the first place. It was a simple champ, very strong early game, falls of late but stil useful. And he offered counterplay. I don't see any reason for a rework.
no one wants to play against old pantheon. do you know how shit it is queueing up for a game and some degenerate plays pantheon pre-rework? honestly one of the worst experiences the game could present someone with. so no, fuck the old pantheon, he needed the rework, there won't be a revert.
MMM Monster kill2 votesno one wants to play against old pantheon. do you know how shit it is queueing up for a game and some degenerate plays pantheon pre-rework? honestly one of the worst experiences the game could present someone with. so no, fuck the old pantheon, he needed the rework, there won't be a revert.
i liked to play vs old pant.
preternatural2 votes[{quoted}](name=MMM Monster kill,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=001c000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-17T11:36:06.562+0000)
i liked to play vs old pant.
it's fun to get zoned out by point and clicks huh.
Vlada Cut1 votes[{quoted}](name=MMM Monster kill,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8lMownwT,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2019-08-17T11:24:28.412+0000)
Pantheon didn't need a rework in the first place. It was a simple champ, very strong early game, falls of late but stil useful. And he offered counterplay. I don't see any reason for a rework.
Yes he needed it. Too toxic of a kit with no skill expression. A champiom for new ies you say? Then tell me how can a newbie in Silver Pantheon close a game in 23 minutes without being outscaled. He was a champion for high elo where games last way shorter, and he still damn is.
