Dear Adcs: You're not SUPPOSED to be able to kite everyone 1v1.

Slamurai Jack·Sep 5, 2015·91 votes·9,051 views

I know this is going to come as a shock to a lot of you out there, but adcs aren't supposed to be able to consistently outplay the people designed to kill them in a 1v1 scenario. The counterplay for a juggernaught/bruiser/assassin/melee carry against an adc with a ton of allied peel is to get them off on their own, and you as the adc don't get a ton of counterplay options once they've succeeded in doing so since you've already failed the counterplay of not getting separated from your team. If you're playing adc and the enemy Garen is killing you 1v1 in a teamfight, you need to learn how to kite and your team needs to learn how to peel and play as a team, not go write a post on the boards about how OP Garen is. Literally the only adc that doesn't follow this rule without having a huge gold lead is Vayne, and that self sufficiency is one of the main motivations for picking Vayne.

120 Comments

PennsSep 5, 201540 votes

Kalista

Meep ManSep 5, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Kalista item 3085 item 3153 item 3006 :(

A Miss FortuneSep 5, 201511 votes

Kalista item 3153 item 3085 item 3022 item 3071 item 3172 item 1305

not viable but would be hilarious against any melee champions

ConturbatioSep 5, 20152 votes

Kalista doesn't benefit in anyway from either boot's of swiftness' bonus 15 movement speed, nor the furor enchantment nor the phage passive from black cleaver.

Thought I wouldn't mind the 10% ms from Zephyr since it also grants 50% attack speed + tenacity.

Auz the RipperSep 6, 20151 votes

If I remember correctly, the speed of her dash itself scales with her current movement speed so she does get a little out of feather boots and phage.

One of the Rioters mentioned it on a thread calling for kalista's dashes to be reduced by slows.

ConturbatioSep 6, 20151 votes

It doesn't scale with movement speed, it scales with boot tier; 250 range w/o boots, 300 range with tier 1 boots & 350 range with tier 2 boots.

Auz the RipperSep 6, 20151 votes

The distance is based solely on the boots, you are correct, but speed and distance are different things

NielarkenSep 6, 20156 votes

Kalista item 1001 "gg guys she got her boots we cant even get the mercy auto attack now"

Only Play DariusSep 5, 201522 votes

ADC's are too used to 1v1'ing people like Darius simply by walking backward even though that isn't how it's supposed to work. Now the fighters actually get decent items and the ADC mains are the first to cry.

SmokinSickStyleSep 6, 20156 votes

Dude now they have to pay attention and rely and PRAISE their support more, or at least focusing more on orbwalking.

ADCs thinking they don't need their supp anymore after lanephase, pff.

IcyPepperSep 6, 20152 votes

ADCs thinking they don't need their supp anymore after lanephase, pff.

I would encourage a little independence, though. Support has to roam and help the other guys out too :3

Duchess of DeerSep 6, 20153 votes

isn't darius supposed to be easily kited?

I mean like he beats any melee in 1v1

DrNovaSep 5, 201515 votes

This is a bad thread. Either stupid or poorly written. Title says adc's shouldn't be able to kite everyone. Then you go on to list juggernauts (who everyone is bitching about) who their weakness is supposed to be kiting (though its not). And other classes.

Then you go on to talk about teamfights (the opposite of 1v1) and say learn to kite better.

This post seems written because you saw a thread complaining about Garen? but had nothing intelligent in it. Looking for upvotes maybe? I dunni. Bad thread though.

Slamurai JackSep 5, 201516 votes

It's a response to adc's who complain that you can't kite juggernaughts 1v1, hence the title. I have seen so many people complaining on reddit and on these boards that "juggernaughts aren't weak to kiting because of Dead Mans, Black Cleaver, etc". And they're right in a sense, you aren't going to be able to kite someone with those items 1v1 as an adc. That is the point of this post; being able to deal with juggernaughts 1v1 as an adc is not a reasonable expection. Taking down juggernaughts is a team effort. If the juggernaught manages to isolate you in a teamfight as the adc, you deserve to die to him, and you don't deserve a chance to outplay him after you already fucked up and gave him the opportunity to 1v1 you. I pretty much already said all of this in the OP but I figured it bears repeating. Juggernaughts are weak to kiting, moreso than any other class. That does not mean that most adcs should expect to be able to handle Garen without assistance.

Moulin RougeSep 5, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pVAziRVc,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-05T20:18:01.898+0000)

It's a response to adc's who complain that you can't kite juggernaughts 1v1, hence the title. I have seen so many people complaining on reddit and on these boards that "juggernaughts aren't weak to kiting because of Dead Mans, Black Cleaver, etc". And they're right in a sense, you aren't going to be able to kite someone with those items 1v1 as an adc. That is the point of this post; being able to deal with juggernaughts 1v1 as an adc is not a reasonable expection. Taking down juggernaughts is a team effort. If the juggernaught manages to isolate you in a teamfight as the adc, you deserve to die to him, and you don't deserve a chance to outplay him after you already fucked up and gave him the opportunity to 1v1 you. I pretty much already said all of this in the OP but I figured it bears repeating. Juggernaughts are weak to kiting, moreso than any other class. That does not mean that most adcs should expect to be able to handle Garen without assistance.

So juggernauts should only be able to die from a 2 vs 1. What you're saying is that a team should always dedicate 2 champs to stopping them.

Which sounds dumb.

Slamurai JackSep 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

So juggernauts should only be able to die from a 2 vs 1. What you're saying is that a team should always dedicate 2 champs to stopping them.

Which sounds dumb.

If one of the 2 champions is a squishy carry, then yes. Juggernaughts are the true tanks of LoL when compared to real life tanks. Tons of damage, high survivability, low in fight maneuverability. The key word here is maneuverability, not immobility. Real life tanks move pretty fast when moving in straight lines or when unimpeded, and Garen is exactly the same way. You don't expect 1 infantryman to deal with a tank on his own, even if that infantryman has a bazooka. And you shouldn't expect squishies to be able to deal with juggernaughts on their own.

Moulin RougeSep 5, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pVAziRVc,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-05T21:46:38.026+0000)

If one of the 2 champions is a squishy carry, then yes. Juggernaughts are the true tanks of LoL when compared to real life tanks. Tons of damage, high survivability, low in fight maneuverability. The key word here is maneuverability, not immobility. Real life tanks move pretty fast when moving in straight lines or when unimpeded, and Garen is exactly the same way. You don't expect 1 infantryman to deal with a tank on his own, even if that infantryman has a bazooka. And you shouldn't expect squishies to be able to deal with juggernaughts on their own.

So with that logic, you're essentially saying the team with the most juggernauts, win. Since one essentially makes your team a 6 vs 5.

Do you not see the issue here? Morde is ruling bot lane as long as he has engage.

Darius and Garen are ruling top lane. They are extremely hard to kite.

Skarner is ruling the jungle.

Why? Because through your logic. Their presense adds an invisible man to their team. (Or in mordes case, not so invisible).

TrylobyteSep 5, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So with that logic, you're essentially saying the team with the most juggernauts, win. Since one essentially makes your team a 6 vs 5.

Do you not see the issue here? Morde is ruling bot lane as long as he has engage.

Darius and Garen are ruling top lane. They are extremely hard to kite.

Skarner is ruling the jungle.

Why? Because through your logic. Their presense adds an invisible man to their team. (Or in mordes case, not so invisible).

Except he's not saying that at all. He's saying that juggernauts counter glass cannon ADCs and that, one on one, a juggernaut should be able to kill an ADC. The counter to juggernauts is CC and peel, which ADCs don't have. Need to work as a team, there, or stop getting caught out 1v1 on your ADC.

DrNovaSep 5, 20154 votes

Cc is a counter to everyone, so that doesn't work.

Mobility is supposed to be the big weakness of Juggernaughts, riot even stated, since they are tanky AND do near assassin level damage. But boots and one item MADE ESPECUALLY TO COVER THEIR WEAKNESS and kiting isn't a weakness anymore.

You say they don't have mobility (except they do), you can't expect to kite them (except that was supposed to be EXACTLY their weakness), and counter to them is cc (which "counters" everyone) and team focus (which means you have to have your team blow abilities on an enemy with high survivability) and you think that is sound logic? Get real.

Jug's are overpowered with no real weakness.

Slamurai JackSep 5, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Cc is a counter to everyone, so that doesn't work.

Mobility is supposed to be the big weakness of Juggernaughts, riot even stated, since they are tanky AND do near assassin level damage. But boots and one item MADE ESPECUALLY TO COVER THEIR WEAKNESS and kiting isn't a weakness anymore.

You say they don't have mobility (except they do), you can't expect to kite them (except that was supposed to be EXACTLY their weakness), and counter to them is cc (which "counters" everyone) and team focus (which means you have to have your team blow abilities on an enemy with high survivability) and you think that is sound logic? Get real.

Jug's are overpowered with no real weakness.

It's not often I pull rank, but I'm going to do it here because I feel it's appropriate. You are Bronze 4, and a legit one since you have hundreds of games this season. Most players get placed into Silver after they reach lvl 30 and the majority of them stay there or move up. That means you are legitimately worse than the average player that has just reached lvl 30, and significantly worse than that. Hell, You've been playing ranked since Season 2 and are still Bronze.

With that in mind, let's get 1 thing clear. You are terrible at this game. You've been playing for over 4 years and aren't even close to the average skill level of ranked players. Hell, you're in the bottom 5%. Considering that, what makes you think your opinion on game balance has any value whatsoever? Your insight is about as valuable as what a high school football player thinks about NFL contact rules; you're both so utterly far from anything resembling a truly competitive level that your opinions on the subject are not only worthless, but actually less than worthless because those opinions take time and attention away from people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about.

You know what the high elo consensus on juggernaughts is? Solid reworks but numerically overtuned. Never have I heard anyone above Gold say that Juggernaughts have no counterplay, although they may feel their damage and tankiness is a bit too high to justify the counterplay they do have. And that's fine, just means their numbers are too high and can be tuned down. But conceptually, the juggernaught reworks were solid and they're not going anywere; you're just going to have to get used to people like Garen, Darius, and Morde being able to kill you while also being very tanky.

TarynSep 5, 20157 votes

Did you really have to stoop to the leveling of straight up attacking someone because of their rank? Your post here does nothing for your argument except prove yourself a pretentious asshole. Good luck in the real world.

Slamurai JackSep 5, 20155 votes

It's more just openly acknowledging the fact that he's so far separated from quality play that his opinion on balance is about as insightful as a McDonald's cashiers opinions on corporate policy. If you're a legit Bronze 4 player, what you think you understand about this game and how it actually is are so far apart that you're barely even talking about the same thing. If he understood this game to an even basic level, he wouldn't be bronze 4 after 4 seasons. He is as utterly unqualified to give an opinion about game balance as I am to give an opinion on how to perform an open valve heart surgery; that is to say, that opinion is less than worthless because it distracts from people who actually went to medical school.

DrNovaSep 6, 20154 votes

I actually brought up extremely strong points and a strong argument for why they are OVERPOWERESD, my exact words, which you just acknowledged pro players also say. So basically I was correct, and because you had no rebuttal you got desperate and pulled the rank card (which I feel no need to defend myself for) to tell me I don't know anything despite having a strong argument which you conceded to be true by virtue of pro's essentially agreeing with me.

Don't get into discussions with people smarter then you. My work here is done.

Slamurai JackSep 6, 20153 votes

You explicitly said they had no weaknesses which is very different from being overpowered, which is again very different from being overtuned. Pro's have said that the juggernaughts are overtuned and need slight numbers nerfs. You sound like the kind of guy that clamors for champions to be completely gutted. And please, smarter than me? I'm diamond and I only started in preseason 4. You've been playing since Season 2 and are still among the worst this game has to offer. The only excuse you can have to be that bad after this much time is some sort of physical or mental disability that renders you incapable of playing this game at a decent level.

Slamurai JackSep 5, 20158 votes

{quoted}

So with that logic, you're essentially saying the team with the most juggernauts, win. Since one essentially makes your team a 6 vs 5.

Do you not see the issue here? Morde is ruling bot lane as long as he has engage.

Darius and Garen are ruling top lane. They are extremely hard to kite.

Skarner is ruling the jungle.

Why? Because through your logic. Their presense adds an invisible man to their team. (Or in mordes case, not so invisible).

You know you can kite more than 1 person with the same champion right? Try playing Vel'koz vs. a slow tanky team. You can easily CC several of them at once as they try to run at you. Any champion with AOE CC can do this. Hell, Nautilus support can CC several people at once while also being tanky. Teamfights aren't a series of 1v1's, and you'll get a lot farther in this game when you start to think in terms of teams and not 1v1's.

Aych PiiSep 6, 20151 votes

The weakness of the AD carry role is 1v1s. You're worth two people in any scenario where you're not alone, but pretty much any other class besides support will win a 1v1 against you. It's how the class works.

SentineIsSep 6, 20151 votes

The only thing I disagree with in this comment is that Juggernauts are weak to kiting. Darius maybe (although he has a decent grab and speed with Dead Man's) but Garen is semi-difficult to kite with dead mans and Skarner is near impossible. I don't feel like juggernauts weaknesses are kiting at all rn and I think that needs to be fixed.

Slamurai JackSep 6, 20151 votes

You do know that any CC at all makes Dead Mans go away right? Literally just a slow and their MS bonus disappears. And that MS bonus is gone again every time they auto. All Dead Mans does it help them get in when no one bothers to slow them. It doesn't do shit for you mobility wise the moment you enter combat.

SentineIsSep 6, 20152 votes

Well that's the point of Dead Man's, it's used to get up to your target. The thing about Juggernauts though is once your on top of your target they can't get away before you delete them, or drag them away. Also if their close enough to cc then they can probably either pull you, ult you, or use their mobility boosters to get on top of you.

Basically, they outrun you, you cc them when their close, they use their innate speed buff to gapclose.

Kiting assumes your attacking them while moving, the fact of the matter is, almost all the juggernauts can reach you, have some form of mobility increasing gapcloser, or ranged pull that prevents you from kiting them for long.

My problem isin't that they do too much damage, their too tanky etc. My problem is that their very difficult to kite when their WEAKNESS is supposed to be KITING.

Darius you can only kite if your range is longer then his pull and you have a form of cc. Skarner you can only kite if your either as fast as yi or you have a team full of cc. Garen you can only kite if you have hard cc or a strong disengage tool to counter his movespeed bonus.

I consider Morde as a good example of a juggernaut's weakness of being able to be kited. He's slow but if he gets in range your fcked. The rest of the Juggernauts, minus maybe Darius (his damage makes up for his pull nerf rn), are arguably some of the fastest champions in the game while using their abilities even if their base speed is low. All this while they do tons of damage.

Seriously their weakness is KITING they should be able to get kited by ranged champions, but that dosent happen.

Slamurai JackSep 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well that's the point of Dead Man's, it's used to get up to your target. The thing about Juggernauts though is once your on top of your target they can't get away before you delete them, or drag them away. Also if their close enough to cc then they can probably either pull you, ult you, or use their mobility boosters to get on top of you.

Basically, they outrun you, you cc them when their close, they use their innate speed buff to gapclose.

Kiting assumes your attacking them while moving, the fact of the matter is, almost all the juggernauts can reach you, have some form of mobility increasing gapcloser, or ranged pull that prevents you from kiting them for long.

My problem isin't that they do too much damage, their too tanky etc. My problem is that their very difficult to kite when their WEAKNESS is supposed to be KITING.

Darius you can only kite if your range is longer then his pull and you have a form of cc. Skarner you can only kite if your either as fast as yi or you have a team full of cc. Garen you can only kite if you have hard cc or a strong disengage tool to counter his movespeed bonus.

I consider Morde as a good example of a juggernaut's weakness of being able to be kited. He's slow but if he gets in range your fcked. The rest of the Juggernauts, minus maybe Darius (his damage makes up for his pull nerf rn), are arguably some of the fastest champions in the game while using their abilities even if their base speed is low. All this while they do tons of damage.

Seriously their weakness is KITING they should be able to get kited by ranged champions, but that dosent happen.

Yes, you cannot get them off you 1v1, which you may recognize as the entire point of this thread. You will not be able to kite out a Darius or Garen on your own. Dead Mans, Cleaver, and their CC makes sure of that. That's why you AND YOUR TEAM need to kite them together. The Juggernaught cannot wade through 2-3 people's CC and stick to their target on their own, even with all of those items. If Juggernaughts could be kited 1v1 by most adcs, they would be completely worthless and never worth picking from a competetive standpoint. There's a reason that Garen and Darius were never picked competetively; their reward for reaching you was nowhere near worth the effort it took to do so. Now it is. That doesn't make them overpowered. that just means they've been brought up to where they should be. Their numbers may be a little high right now but the concept is solid.

SentineIsSep 6, 20152 votes

I stand by the fact that their concept is that their weakness is kiting in exchange for all the strengths they have. If the role that by its very nature kites cannot kite a role that by its very nature is supposed to be WEAK against kiting then that's a design problem. They should just change the design philosophy then to weak against a team full of CC....not that every champion in the game is weak to a team full of cc besides Irelia...sooo that would be a bad weakness to claim as significant...oh wait that is their only weakness according to you...to counter a juggernaut all you have to do is to have 2 or MORE people dedicated to stopping 1 person who is supposed to be WEAK to kiting, from getting kited by the ADC which is by its very nature a KITING role. Makes sense.

Jaygo41Sep 5, 201511 votes

No the reasoning of picking vayne is that you can be DOWN gold and still have ways to 1v1 because you can dodge people's shit with your invisibility and low cooldown Q and your condemn which can get you to safety or ensure a kill

MatezoideSep 5, 20157 votes

This is too true.

''WTF I AM AN ADC WITH ZERO DEFENSE ITEMS WHY IS THIS BRUISER BLOWING ME UP??!? GG ADCS ARE USELESS''

KatCraftSep 6, 20152 votes

And those feels when bruisers out dps you even when they are building defensive items.

The reason Vayne is hated is because she can't be trivialized just by walking towards her and mashing your keyboard.

People are used to Adc's being farm minions for assassins and mobile bruisers, and lose their shit when one has some form of counterplay against left clicking on them.

Vayne being played every game is an adc problem not a Vayne problem.

Moulin RougeSep 5, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pVAziRVc,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-05T19:28:38.579+0000)

**your team needs to learn how to peel **

Haha, this isn't Diamond.

Prospector PeteSep 5, 20155 votes

Draven tries to 1v5 with his team halfway across the map

"WTF Team Y U no peel?"

TurquoiseYoshiSep 5, 20154 votes

You're assuming that your team has tons of peel. What if they don't? Then you're kinda f***ed, since you have no way to get these people off of you. Or maybe you have 1 peel spell and 2 enemy melee carries.

Also, Garen has kit tools (his Q) to keep himself from getting kited, as well as Dead Man's Plate, and Alacrity boots, which, when all combined, give him a ton of move speed.

BiffoloSep 5, 201510 votes

Then your team drafted poorlr and you deserve to be at a disadvantage.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 5, 20153 votes

So having no peel means that your draft phase was bad? Even if you have a ton of engage and didn't know there would be a Garen until last pick? So just allowing Garen through the pick phase and not automatically drafting a ton of peel is worthy of losing you a match?

BiffoloSep 5, 20159 votes

You picked a comp with a glaring weakness and they exploited it. I fail to see what the issue is here.

OrangesilkSep 6, 20151 votes

"Exploited it" being, of course, picking the highest winrate toplaner, because it's a fringe pick that wouldn't work in circumstances where peel is present right?.

BiffoloSep 6, 20151 votes

If they are oh so common and you view them as being that powerful, why aren't you picking them?

OrangesilkSep 7, 20151 votes

Well, they are super common, and super easy too, and super powerful.

They are permabanned for this reason.

BiffoloSep 7, 20151 votes

Why don't you leave one up and play it then?

OrangesilkSep 5, 20154 votes

And then they claim it's a balanced thing when there are not 1, but 4 champions suffering from the same problems in different roles. It takes a team-ful of CC to keep Skarner of a carry, and then what?, if they have both Skarner and Garen you auto-lose?.

ArchenzSep 6, 20155 votes

I smell a salty adc main

TridemSep 5, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Then your team drafted poorlr and you deserve to be at a disadvantage.

In Soloque you cannot draft "badly".... In the LCS you can draft badly because the LCS is at a different skill level and there are only a few champs that get to go in the "LCS Champ pool"

BUT in soloque you dont knkw that person you are facing in ranked -unless your challenger, the drafts do matter but not that many are challenger because they are ALMOST all pros- and you dont know thier champion pool, He could play Yorick for all that matters. What im trying to say is in Soloq you cant build a teamcomp because 1.) You dont knkw tour teammates and 2.) You dont know your enemy. Plus when you play comps you limit peoples champion pool. For instance If your team plays a hard engage comp, your team forces you to play a hard engage champion (IE ali or leona) and most likely forces your oppenent to play a janna or something.

Thats all good if you WANT to play leona or Ali but what if u dont? What if u want to play Morgana, If there are team comps your teams team comp doesnt go well with that pick-It actually might work Flash r then zhonyas. But Overall in general you should not have to worry about team comps in soloq.

KoKobotoSep 5, 20154 votes

{quoted}

You're assuming that your team has tons of peel. What if they don't? Then you're kinda f***ed, since you have no way to get these people off of you. Or maybe you have 1 peel spell and 2 enemy melee carries.

Also, Garen has kit tools (his Q) to keep himself from getting kited, as well as Dead Man's Plate, and Alacrity boots, which, when all combined, give him a ton of move speed.

The JUGGERNAUT THEME IS NOT "suppose to get kited" its "They don't have strong engage but if they get too you you gon die" And nothing have no real gap closers aside from movement speed buffs

AbyssphereSep 6, 20157 votes

{quoted}

You're assuming that your team has tons of peel. What if they don't? Then you're kinda f***ed, since you have no way to get these people off of you. Or maybe you have 1 peel spell and 2 enemy melee carries.

Also, Garen has kit tools (his Q) to keep himself from getting kited, as well as Dead Man's Plate, and Alacrity boots, which, when all combined, give him a ton of move speed.

This is equivalent to saying that assassins shouldn't be strong against squishies but poor against tanks because it's possible that your will be entirely squishies lacking in hard CC/escapes - that's ridiculous. Champions should be strong against teams that are poorly designed to cope with them and that includes Juggernauts being strong against teams with poor ability to kite.