"Garen/Lee Sin/Riven/Shyvana/Darius has no counterplay!"

Slamurai Jack·Sep 2, 2015·99 votes·7,740 views

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94 Comments

Blue Moon WolfSep 2, 201512 votes

I just recently established that Taric counders Riven . she dives, stun her. she stuns you, your crystal shield can protect you then you can heal the damage. the only thing she can do is out sustain him but as long as the jungle can get a successful gank, that might not be an issue.

Slamurai JackSep 2, 201513 votes

Riven has shit tons of counterplay for most champions, people either just can't think clearly enough about what Riven does to understand what that counterplay is, or they're too wrapped up in Riven hate to even bother to try. Riven is a noob stomper due to the nature of her kit. If you're consistently getting shit on by Rivens, guess what you are?

SasogwaSep 2, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:09:26.741+0000)

Riven has shit tons of counterplay for most champions, people either just can't think clearly enough about what Riven does to understand what that counterplay is, or they're too wrapped up in Riven hate to even bother to try. Riven is a noob stomper due to the nature of her kit. If you're consistently getting shit on by Rivens, guess what you are?

Riven has some very dominative matchups though, where you can't do shit but get zoned if you're weaker, because by the nature of her kit she can do trades without losing an inch of health. Also she's extremely snowbally and usually gets out of hand if she gets a bit of kills. And it's not like she's bad lategame. That shit's a myth, she's like a hypercarry lategame. If she dashes flash stun on several persons/ the enemy backline then does her burst, it's pretty much GG. But I don't really fear her. I win most of my lanes against her with Nasus , but that's cause I got ridiculous sustain and can rush armor easily. And my all in is just ridiculously strong. But well... idk. Wouldn't call her OP, but certainly annoying.

doombotMECHASep 3, 20153 votes

riven's counter is early armor. If you actually dont die to her in lane, ur gonna be fine and she won't have what she needs @ all in terms of gold.

LowvyrSep 2, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:09:26.741+0000)

Riven has shit tons of counterplay for most champions, people either just can't think clearly enough about what Riven does to understand what that counterplay is, or they're too wrapped up in Riven hate to even bother to try. Riven is a noob stomper due to the nature of her kit. If you're consistently getting shit on by Rivens, guess what you are?

I agreed until the last sentence.

Slamurai JackSep 2, 20159 votes

I did say consistently. It's hard to not feed a good Riven on occasion. But if pretty much every Riven you lane against is wrecking the shit out of you, you're the one with the problem.

LowvyrSep 2, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-02T20:48:10.243+0000)

I did say consistently. It's hard to not feed a good Riven on occasion. But if pretty much every Riven you lane against is wrecking the shit out of you, you're the one with the problem.

While I agree, it doesn't mean you're a noob. It just means you don't know how to play around Riven.

Troll for TrumpSep 2, 20151 votes

Thresh on release: People on high horses like you two: Omg thresh has counterplay, just cuz you can't dodge doesn't mean he's OP. Thresh top, jungle,mid,support,and ADC all become part of the meta People on high horses like you two: Omg stop complaining just dodge hooks One Patch later... "Yeah I guess thresh was a little too strong"

MelledoneusSep 3, 20153 votes

See, Riven has been out a lot longer than release Thresh, so please. Use a better example that relates, since Riven has been balanced around her animation cancelling.

Troll for TrumpSep 4, 20151 votes

RIven being released longer than thresh has no significance at all. So please, don't throw your bs in here. If you want a bugged champ that became strong/popular briefly, that would be AP runeglaive Ez mid, which was based on a bug in the game. If you want a generally strong champ which has been out for a while and is still really strong, that would be thresh, who is still the best support after tons of nerfs.

MelledoneusSep 4, 20151 votes

I will not respond to you in the same tone or manner in which you answered me, since stooping to that level turns a friendly debate into a cock fight full of screeches, blood, and feathers. So let me make my point more clear, as it was perhaps my fault I did not clarify.

The general idea is that the longer a champion has been out without a rework, the more time Riot has to balance them. Riven has been out for several years, and the moment Riot saw her animation cancelling they decided to scale down her power. Riven is a strong early champion who can snowball fast because of her dueling potential. However, she lacks durability, so she can be focused and killed should she make a mistake. While many find her annoying, she is relatively balanced. The community has requested to make her power less oppressive when she is ahead. But she is not OP or broken, although she is commonly perceived as such.

Troll for TrumpSep 5, 20151 votes

" will not respond to you in the same tone or manner in which you answered me, since stooping to that level turns a friendly debate into a cock fight full of screeches, blood, and feathers." And you have a high horse attitude or trying to indirectly insult people and play the white knight is fine because?

Riven is broken because of animation cancelling. Not OP, but broken. She has a mechanic which has been used a lot that made her stronger. Sorta like how the semirecent AP ezreal mid runeglaive was strong due to the luden's bug. That made AP ez broken, but not OP.

Riot should just fix the animation cancelling instead of nerfing numbers. If they can't fix animation cancelling she should have a rework(but priority very low, not as high as current morde, taric,poppy, etc.)

"However, she lacks durability, so she can be focused and killed should she make a mistake." No, she can just spam shield anytime she wants to tank any poke. If she overextends, she just dashes away. She can trade by facerolling, and the only true way to stop her is hard cc, which is a bad argument, because hard cc applies to any champ. Riven lacks durability, and everyone builds lifesteal on her. But that applies to every champ.. but Just getting ravenous hydra solves all the sustainability issues, in addition to her shield.

" Riven is a strong early champion who can snowball fast because of her dueling potential. " A lot of champs can scale off hard because of dueling potential, but they won't be able to automatically kill you whenever you go to lane because they are 1/0/0, or be able to dive you and get away scot-free due to the dashes and shield+chain cc her kit provides. They won't be able to burn your mana from your spamming of abilities. Riot said manaless champs should be limited by weaker abilities and/or longer cooldowns. RIven seems to lack neither of these drawbacks.

If you want something that's a strong early champion who snowballs fast and can duel, as well as being easily focused and killed because of a mistake, that would be pre-rework darius. Both have a dominant(bully) early laning phase, both can snowball, Prerework darius dueled very well. But darius lacks mobility, and has some mana issues. If a darius overextends or is in the middle of the lane, he can be ganked by a jungler and killed; he has no escape, and no cc(other than his w, which is an AA enchancer so it's not really good cc for escapes(i.e. taric stun,nunu snowball, riven q). Riven can just spam (manaless) and just dash away.

MelledoneusSep 5, 20151 votes

I apologize if I came off as condescending. I just wanted to entertain the idea of toning down the aggressiveness, and my subtle hints seemed to have been ignored before, so I had to regrettably be a bit more blunt.

Regardless, your main argument is that Riven can win any teamfight with her "manaless, spammable shield." However, while it takes 6 seconds at maximum rank for her shield to come off of its cooldown, it takes 1 or 2 for a team to react to her and destroy her. Supports like Janna, Thresh, Soraka, and Leona do this with ease. Without her shield and abilities, she's an immobile squishy melee. This is why Riven generally goes in when the front lime engages and the enemy team least expects it. Should Riven get that surprise factor (which is countered by generous warding), she is allowed to wreak havoc on the enemy team. Should her combo be interrupted, her damage decreases dramatically. As a Shen main, I have learned from experience that no shield can save a squishy from a 5 man focus.

Additionally, let's talk about Darius. Darius is a champion is destined to win each and every melee duel. While Riven has to jump quickly on her opponent, and she is countered by armor, even when she buys armor penetration. Darius, on the other hand, can kill you the same whether you have 50 armor or 500. Once he gets his Black Cleaver, armor doesn't counter him. He gets a guaranteed 5 stacks with his E with his 90% slow, and has a true damage nuke. Riven has a simple execute that can be sidestepped from a distance. Darius may have mana gating, but he gets mana back on his abilities now, and the Q on his heal makes him harder to outsustain in a team fight than Aatrox.

Riven's animation cancelling does not make her broken. And she was balanced to assume she will animation cancel. She may be resourceless, but she can't, as you say, "spam her manaless dash (E)." Should she be caught out while using her abilities to escape, she's a sitting duck. I suppose you've dealt with many fed Rivens to be this angry and biased toward a single champion in a meta of oppressive juggernauts and Fiora.

Troll for TrumpSep 5, 20151 votes

"Without her shield and abilities, she's an immobile squishy melee." "immobile" ...yeah.... her q still counts as 3 dashes and she still has flash.

"However, while it takes 6 seconds at maximum rank for her shield to come off of its cooldown, it takes 1 or 2 for a team to react to her and destroy her." Or she could not get caught out and her team can peel, and their adc/bruiser/caster/assassin can kill you while you focus riven. Once again your argument applies to any champion. So does mine.

"Regardless, your main argument is that Riven can win any teamfight with her "manaless, spammable shield."" Uhh, no. No, it's not.

"Should Riven get that surprise factor (which is countered by generous warding), she is allowed to wreak havoc on the enemy team. " That applies to anything with burst. Stop using general arguments

" Should her combo be interrupted, her damage decreases dramatically" That applies to anything with burst stop using general arguments

"As a Shen main, I have learned from experience that no shield can save a squishy from a 5 man focus." That happens to anything squishy.Also, you should probably peel by taunting all 5 of them or have your support disengage or bruiser engage.

"Additionally, let's talk about Darius. Darius is a champion is destined to win each and every melee duel. While Riven has to jump quickly on her opponent, and she is countered by armor, even when she buys armor penetration. Darius, on the other hand, can kill you the same whether you have 50 armor or 500. Once he gets his Black Cleaver, armor doesn't counter him. He gets a guaranteed 5 stacks with his E with his 90% slow, and has a true damage nuke" I said PREREWORK darius not postrework.

" Riven has a simple execute that can be sidestepped from a distance. Darius may have mana gating, but he gets mana back on his abilities now, and the Q on his heal makes him harder to outsustain in a team fight than Aatrox." YOu won't sidestep her ult unless she just stands still. She has a ton of mobility, stop saying a champion with 4 dashes+flash is immobile. Her execute also procs her passive AND increases her AD by 25%. Once again, I said PREREWORK darius not postrework. Aatrox dies in teamfights due to focus, he can duel better than darius. One is stronger in teamfights, the other is much more so a duelist. Please don't use common knowledge like "just dodge ___ and ____" Then you can "dodge" Darius's R by staying out of range. SInce Riot fixed Darius's e "bug" but not riven's animation cancelling you can just stay out of range of darius's E and Q. Basically darius is: if you get caught, you die. He punishes you hard for mistakes. Darius is much more immobile than riven and more kitable.

"Riven's animation cancelling does not make her broken. And she was balanced to assume she will animation cancel. She may be resourceless, but she can't, as you say, "spam her manaless dash (E)." Should she be caught out while using her abilities to escape, she's a sitting duck. I suppose you've dealt with many fed Rivens to be this angry and biased toward a single champion in a meta of oppressive juggernauts and Fiora."

Animation cancelling makes her broken. An unintended bug/glitch in the game which makes a champion stronger and more viable makes the champ who has said bug/glitch broken."And she was balanced to assume she will animation cancel". No, if they wanted to fix riven they should do to her what they did to veigar.

". I suppose you've dealt with many fed Rivens to be this angry and biased toward a single champion in a meta of oppressive juggernauts and Fiora." You apoligize for condescending attitude than use it again. Well played. And no. I mained prerework darius and never had any problems with her top. My issue was when other players go top and lose to riven. And yes, her kit is strong and overloaded compared to many other older champion kits.

MelledoneusSep 5, 20151 votes

You can't make the argument that I'm generalizing about squishy burst champions, mainly because that is exactly what Riven is.

And I said that Riven without her abilities is immobile. This includes cooldowns, snares, silences, and other hard CC. Never did I say she was immobile in general.

Your arguments are generally the same: I'm generalizing. And I am. **Riven is not this super unique champion with specific counterplay, she falls into the same class as champions like Fiora. **Squishy, and very prone to being bursted.

You didn't even look for a proper solution. You said to fix Riven, they should do what they did to Veigar. You mean make her weaker in high level play than she already is, or completely destroy her and make her almost impossible to win with except under certain circumstances? Because if that is what you mean, then there clearly is no reason to debate, since you'd rather have Riot destroy a champion you don't like rather than come up with a real solution. I don't want to meet the same dead-end conclusion again and again, since real solutions solve problems instead of create them.

And also, I already made it clear that I had no innate intention of coming off as condescending or insulting, as I made it clear before that I am sometimes very blunt.

Have a nice day, friend.

Troll for TrumpSep 6, 20151 votes

What champion do you think is the strongest in the current meta? Answer the question please.(I actually mean what the question says, no, riven isn't the strongest champ in the meta, just list some of the really good champs right now)

"And I said that Riven without her abilities is immobile. This includes cooldowns, snares, silences, and other hard CC. Never did I say she was immobile in general." Every champ is useless without abilities. A mage is useless without abilities. Please refrain from using straw man arguments.

Your general arguments against my general arguments accusing you for using general arguments is that the general arguments you use generally are true. But they are so general they might as well not be arguments. For instance, warding is a general argument to stop ganks from junglers, but that isn't the problem for devourer champs. Let's take Devourer's Xin zhao. One could say "Oh, just ward and you stop his early game and he falls off late game" No. Due to devourer's xin zhao has a much more stronger prescence lategame. The problem is much more so devourers, which you can technically stop him from stacking by either pressuring all lanes and winning early,counterjungling,stopping drags etc. But that is a general anti-devourers argument. It is hard to come up with arguments against indivisual champs(buying pinks against teemo is a nongeneral argument against him. A general argument against teemo is "stay under tower and farm so you won't be harassed by him". That would be a normal anti lane-bully argument).

"You mean make her weaker in high level play than she already is, or completely destroy her and make her almost impossible to win with except under certain circumstances?" She's not weak in high level play. She has the highest pick rate, and a really strong win rate, IN HIGH (ranked)ELO. Look it up.

MelledoneusSep 7, 20151 votes

Since we seem to be getting somewhere, and your arguments became admittedly good, I officially rejoin this argument.

In my opinion, the strongest champions in the meta lie in three factors: Mobility, sustain/durability, and high damage. People who fall into this category, especially since the last few patches, are the juggernauts. Garen, Darius, Skarner, and Mordekaiser can devastate entire teams with these three factors. If you would like, I can go into more detail on that, but first things first.

While I did sound like I was committing a straw man, I confess that my lack of clarity made way for signs of logical fallacy. Riven is especially weak without her abilities, because **they give her everything that makes her strong. **That's the weakness of a caster, which is what Riven is.

The true way to kill a Riven lies in matching or surpassing her tempo. Rengar can jump and kill her in an instant, giving her no time to defend herself while she gets shredded. This is an example of outpacing Riven in burst damage, and most Rivens build Randuin's when dealing with the horror that is Rengar top. Another example is Aatrox, who can all-in her and walk away because he just chunked half her HP with his W. If she retaliates, he can just sustain it back. In a teamfight, Riven must have that surprise factor, and be unhindered at reaching the squishies. If she fails to reach them, if, say, your Alistar knocks her away in the middle of her fancy kung fu keyboard tricks, she lost her chance to turn the tide. However, it is imperative that Riven should be dealt with separate from her team, since strong initiators give her that "wow" factor.

When I said "high-level play" I was referring to several things. First was the LCS. Teams are well-coordinated and eat Riven for breakfast. Dyrus could play Bard top lane and destroy a Riven player because they know how to deal with minor annoyances like Riven. Another is Master-Challenger. Players like BoxBox have started to shy away from playing Riven, since she is so difficult to win games with in such a competitive high level environment.

As for Riven herself, I have dealt with her many times. I have faced off against famous Riven players in the PBE, and their knowledge of mechanics rendered me helpless. I think that instead of nerfing Riven into oblivion, they should either stick to making her a duelist or a teamfight terror. Her AoE makes her a formidable foe for even the tankiest champions, and the only reason why she is allowed to be at this state is because she relies on items heavily for her ratios. Her base damages fall off quickly, and that is no excuse to make an assassin able to be both a strong duelist and a squishier Garen (AoE shred). I agree that Riven could use a rework, but no champion deserves the Veigar treatment.

Penta PenguinSep 2, 20152 votes

The only thing I don't understand is her 20% extra total AD passive. That is A LOT. It makes sense for her Ulti but why does she have this passive?

Slamurai JackSep 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The only thing I don't understand is her 20% extra total AD passive. That is A LOT. It makes sense for her Ulti but why does she have this passive?

It's the best way to empower her autos without giving her abilities extra power. Riot wants Riven to incorporate autos into her attack patterns and not rely entirely on her skills, but they don't want her to build stuff like crit. Thats why her passive makes her autos do more.

SunriseSkaterKidSep 3, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=0001000000020000,timestamp=2015-09-02T21:06:53.366+0000)

It's the best way to empower her autos without giving her abilities extra power. Riot wants Riven to incorporate autos into her attack patterns and not rely entirely on her skills, but they don't want her to build stuff like crit. Thats why her passive makes her autos do more.

As I agree that riven isnt as strong as everyone makes her out to be, NEVER, EVER, say riven isnt strong on the forums. Even if its true (Which its 100 percent true if you know what armor is) people will downvote because they have a blind rage against all rivens lol.

MelledoneusSep 3, 20152 votes

Darius What's armor?

I Main SwainSep 2, 20156 votes

actually, riven is designed such that if you use her right, she has no counters. all you have to do is play correctly.

Ariel the CruelSep 2, 20158 votes

coughAnimationCancelBurstComboscough

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:09:26.741+0000)

Riven has shit tons of counterplay for most champions, people either just can't think clearly enough about what Riven does to understand what that counterplay is, or they're too wrapped up in Riven hate to even bother to try. Riven is a noob stomper due to the nature of her kit. If you're consistently getting shit on by Rivens, guess what you are?

I guess all people in Korea are retarded for banning her the most.

Slamurai JackSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I guess all people in Korea are retarded for banning her the most.

They also ban Yasuo second most because he's considered a free loss there. They still ban Zed and Katarina over 46% of the time. They don't ban Shyvana at all. Not that what Korean players think matters regardless. 99+% of people who play on the Korean server are garbage, just like every other server.

Smitty ManjensenSep 3, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=0001000000040000,timestamp=2015-09-03T00:43:33.538+0000)

They also ban Yasuo second most because he's considered a free loss there. They still ban Zed and Katarina over 46% of the time. They don't ban Shyvana at all. Not that what Korean players think matters regardless. 99+% of people who play on the Korean server are garbage, just like every other server.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAH, seriously get of your high horse and accept it that the best players are from Korea, bot EU and NA are utter garbage when you compare us to them, which is also proven after season 1, when they participated in tournaments.

Slamurai JackSep 3, 20155 votes

{quoted}

HAHAHAHHAHAHAH, seriously get of your high horse and accept it that the best players are from Korea, bot EU and NA are utter garbage when you compare us to them, which is also proven after season 1, when they participated in tournaments.

The Korean Server is literally the exact same except at the very, very top, like the top 100 players or so. Cowsep has made it to Master Tier on both the Korean and NA server. NA and EU pros that spend time in Korea for worlds consistently make it to Masters and Challenger on the Korean Ladder during their time there. And Gold 4 players in Korea are just as bad as you.

MelledoneusSep 3, 20152 votes

You forgot about Faker Senpai.

You are no longer my son.

GigahappytownSep 3, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:02:52.539+0000)

I just recently established that counders . she dives, stun her. she stuns you, your crystal shield can protect you then you can heal the damage. the only thing she can do is out sustain him but as long as the jungle can get a successful gank, that might not be an issue.

>riven >outstain

doombotMECHASep 3, 20153 votes

he means once she has a BT, and also that riven is manaless. taric works mostly bc he gets early armor, meaning she does way less damage to him.

RikariSep 3, 20157 votes

... If **GAREN ** has no counterplay,then no champion has counterplay.

EmbertineSep 2, 20153 votes

Wait. . .who ever said shyvana has no counterplay? I've played shyvana for years and she has always had counters.

Slamurai JackSep 2, 201520 votes

{quoted}

Wait. . .who ever said shyvana has no counterplay? I've played shyvana for years and she has always had counters.

Whenever a champion starts to be seen as strong, the go to complaint is almost always "insert champ has no counterplay!", regardless of how true that actually is. Hence the meme.

Sniper 0Sep 2, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-09-02T20:49:46.872+0000)

Whenever a champion starts to be seen as strong, the go to complaint is almost always "insert champ has no counterplay!", regardless of how true that actually is. Hence the meme.

I agree that champions can have counterplay but there are specific skills that lack any true counterplay. The closest champ to lacking any real counterplay is yorick and that's only during the laning phase.

One skill lacking true counterplay is fizz's e. I mean sure you can wait for him to burn it BUT it's an invincibility frame that allows him to jump walls, disengage, and in some cases engage (if you have proper vision). You can play around it however with the timer but the skill itself has no counterplay.

Fizz himself however has counterplay being a squishy mobile champ. A snare pretty much disables his dps. Where a adc who is snared still has the opportunity to face roll you.

Hard cc counters every champ so that's not an argument to be had. lol

Slamurai JackSep 3, 20158 votes

Hard cc counters every champ so that's not an argument to be had. lol

Hard CC affects different champions to vastly different degrees. Certain attributes simply make landing hard CC easier or more meaningful. Hard CC is both easier to land and more effective against squishy melee champions simply because they have to go into melee range in order to do anything and thus are easily CC'ed, and they're squishy so each second of CC is worth exponentially more since they die quickly. Hard CC is also more meaningful against champions that rely on kiting since you obviously can't move while stunned/snared/suppressed/etc. And some champions don't care about CC much at all and would be happy if you used your stuns on them and not their teammates. DrMundo is the best example of this; Not only is he incredibly tanky and incredibly fast, but he also has built in CC reduction. It is in his best interest to force your team to use as many stuns on him as possible.

So no, Hard CC doesn't counter every champ. An enemy team full of CC is for more problematic for a Master Yi than it is for a Maokai. Katarina is completely shut out of games if enemy CC is reliable enough. Kog'Maw doesn't give too shits how much CC the enemy team has so long as his frontline holds. I don't think I need to give more examples.

Sniper 0Sep 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=Ir7ZrJjF,discussion-id=IA7hUnRP,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2015-09-03T00:35:17.182+0000)

Hard CC affects different champions to vastly different degrees. Certain attributes simply make landing hard CC easier or more meaningful. Hard CC is both easier to land and more effective against squishy melee champions simply because they have to go into melee range in order to do anything and thus are easily CC'ed, and they're squishy so each second of CC is worth exponentially more since they die quickly. Hard CC is also more meaningful against champions that rely on kiting since you obviously can't move while stunned/snared/suppressed/etc. And some champions don't care about CC much at all and would be happy if you used your stuns on them and not their teammates. is the best example of this; Not only is he incredibly tanky and incredibly fast, but he also has built in CC reduction. It is in his best interest to force your team to use as many stuns on him as possible.

So no, Hard CC doesn't counter every champ. An enemy team full of CC is for more problematic for a Master Yi than it is for a Maokai. Katarina is completely shut out of games if enemy CC is reliable enough. Kog'Maw doesn't give too shits how much CC the enemy team has so long as his frontline holds. I don't think I need to give more examples.

You can cc lock a mundo =.= ... either way there are very few cases of champions who are not countered by hard cc.... lol The crux is what I was saying is there is counterplay WITHOUT hard cc for ever champ. =.=

MelledoneusSep 3, 20152 votes

I think you missed the point back there. Turn around at the next traffic light at Reconsideration Street.

Sniper 0Sep 3, 20151 votes

I think you don't know what you're talking about.

MelledoneusSep 3, 20153 votes

Perhaps, but I at least know that CC locking Mundo in a team fight is generally a waste of your cooldowns. So technically, since he is the tanky dastard we all know and (maybe) love, CC locking him won't ensure he will die. That's what my good friend Slamurai Jack was trying to say.

There are many champions not generally countered by hard CC. Tanks in particular, who are made to soak up damage and burn cooldowns so their team can follow up and pick off the damage dealers without much trouble. Other tanks that shrug off CC are Malphite, Nasus, Olaf, Sion (when alive), Zac, Alistar, Maokai, Amumu, and Rammus. And let's not forget our good friend Irelia, who is the goddess of tenacity in team fights.

But I agree. Every champion has counterplay. For Darius, it's to make sure you kill him before he deals serious damage, CC and kiting can also be effective. For Garen, slows and stuns can stop him dead in his tracks. For Vayne, you need to dive her, CC her, and destroy her quickly. Especially when she tumbles to go in. For Riven, CC or fast burst can take her out with ease. For Vlad, cleansing his ultimate debuff and/or backing away when he W's makes for a good strategy late game. Many champions cam be annoying to deal with (go to hell, Yasuo top), but they can all be played around.

Drinks glass of water while audience applauses

VerxintSep 3, 20153 votes

About half of the posts regarding champion balance are like this:

Title: "[insert champ here] is toxic anti-fun no counterplay bullshit" Post: "pls nerf [champion] i was just in a game and they killed me wtf rito u suck at balance"

Edit: I just remembered someone was complaining that the Fiora rework has no counterplay. I guess he never saw the old one?

KoKobotoSep 2, 20152 votes

When "hard CC" is counterplay a.k.a when the champion can't do anything its technically not counterplay :^) and lemme fix the title

"Bard, Udyr, Anivia has no counterplay!"

Tails DollSep 2, 20158 votes

Dont you say anything about mah Bard boy

Space BumSep 2, 20152 votes

Agree. I haven't had him picked from under me yet and I would rather keep it that way.

GorgannanSep 2, 20151 votes

Garen and Shyvana have very little counterplay. The others, while may be overtuned, are definitely outplayable.

Garen and Shyvana are currently suffering from old Darius-itus. You better be the right champion, or you're boned.

Slamurai JackSep 2, 201510 votes

Anyone who says that a bruiser with no gap closer and no hard CC has little to no counterplay seriously needs to learn about this game. I've already spent the last day arguing with a Rengar main that thinks that Garen has no counterplay; I'm not going to argue with you.

GorgannanSep 2, 20151 votes

"You better have the right champion, or you're boned."

The important part you missed.

It's quite different in teamfights, but in a 1v1 lane, there are MANY champions that have very few options to outplay a Garen.

UltimatesplashSep 3, 20153 votes

Coming from a Garen main, he has counterplay, easily. He doesnt even have a gap closer, which is oh so desired in this meta, his only form of CC is sub par, and he's fairly slow. Anyone with good skills can fight Garen(well, almost; he still counters Riven)

delonixSep 3, 20151 votes

Wasn't Garen just nerfed because he was too fast?

steelblackskySep 4, 20151 votes

5 movespeed. we are talking in the vicinity of .5% or less here.

delonixSep 12, 20151 votes

5 movement speed off of 345 movement speed is 1.4%. Also, he had his movement speed boost decreased to 30% from 35%, and in 5.16 the duration of the movement speed boost was decreased.

I was actually referring to Riot's explanation of the changes though. They said "Juggernauts are slow and deal a lot of damage. Garen does one of those real good, not so much the slow part."

In the context of this thread, that's a pretty clear indication that Riot felt that the counterplay that Juggernauts should have (outrun them/kite them) wasn't applicable to Garen because even though he doesn't have an instant gapcloser, his q made him too fast to outrun or kite.

Also, a small nerf like 5 movement speed might indicate that Riot was being overly cautious and didn't nerf him enough, leaving him still too fast for a Juggernaut.