"I know how to balance every OP champion!"

Slamurai Jack·Sep 22, 2015·109 votes·5,317 views

"Just gut everything that makes that particular champion strong, unique, and worth picking and leave everything else the same. I'm sure they'll be fine and not instantly trash tier." -G&B

123 Comments

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 22, 201513 votes

So. do to fotm champs what they do to non fotm champs? I see

cFlameSep 22, 20159 votes

Its sad that those threads get to exist. They get in the way of actual communications on trying to find problems within champion kits and how they could be fixed, such as a champion with too much in lane burst, or sustain, or requires Jackie Chan mobility reflexes from an opponent.

CatastropSep 23, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Jackie Chan mobility reflexes from an opponent.

The truth here is scorching.

Baby GhoulSep 23, 20155 votes

This is true.

I'm also tired of people asking to gut champions, and their whole argument is centered around their so called "facts".

I've seen several threads and posts where they just list abilities or numbers without appropriate context. More often than not, context is just as important. Sometimes they even leave out a very important detail for the ability to be effective just so people will side with them. You could make almost any champion sound overpowered by just listing their abilities.

I'm still surprised by how often it works, and it makes me realize why G&B is not taken seriously. In so many of the recent QQ threads people have done this, and they get upvotes.

There should be a PSA reminding people that simply listing abilities without context, or snipping out portions to make your argument sound better, does not work and should not be tolerated. It's just spam.

LeetriSep 23, 20152 votes

I've seen several posts like that, it's just that they don't get as many upvotes as the hate-circlejerks.

ElegantDogeSep 23, 20154 votes

There are some posts who actually give very good ideas. Like one who asked for vayne to increase the CD of her ultimate because it's such a huge steroid.(60 sec cd at lvl 16 come on lol)

Slamurai JackSep 23, 20156 votes

It's actually 70 seconds and is pretty long for an ult late game, definitely longer than average. And particularly on a champion that is so reliant on that ult to really do anything. Rengar and Kayle ults are easily in the 40's late game by comparison.

Healz PleaseSep 23, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-09-23T00:42:34.937+0000)

It's actually 70 seconds and is pretty long for an ult late game, definitely longer than average. And particularly on a champion that is so reliant on that ult to really do anything. Rengar and Kayle ults are easily in the 40's late game by comparison.

And let's not forget about Lux's ult.

SEKAISep 23, 20154 votes

What if the champion's uniqueness comes from the fact he/she is OP?

Should we not nerf it?

Slamurai JackSep 23, 20153 votes

I don't even know what that means. A champion is never OP on their own; they need numbers to back it up. And overinflated numbers can even make bad kits OP.

SEKAISep 23, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-09-23T07:48:59.026+0000)

I don't even know what that means. A champion is never OP on their own; they need numbers to back it up. And overinflated numbers can even make bad kits OP.

Thresh

Slamurai JackSep 23, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Oh good, you're one of them. "Thresh could do 0 damage and still be top tier." That sound like something you'd say?

SEKAISep 23, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-23T08:00:26.783+0000)

Oh good, you're one of them. "Thresh could do 0 damage and still be top tier." That sound like something you'd say?

Clearly a champ who is in every sodding game is not because he is OP but how fun he is right?

Utility>>>>>>damage, let's be real.

Broken damage and broken utility both need to be checked on, utilities don't get a free pass because they don't do much damage, that's wrong.

Would you say if today we have a champ who has 4 AoE stuns in his kit but does 0 damage balanced? Same logic here.

Slamurai JackSep 23, 20153 votes

It would depend on how well such a kit actually performed in game. "Broken" kits that don't perform in game clearly don't deserve the label. You're still more likely to win if Thresh is on the enemy team and your chances of winning go up exponentially the less experienced that Thresh is. Thresh's kit may be really strong fundamentally but his numbers suck ass, and his win rate reflects this. Kit strength 5%; Numbers on the kit 95%.

SEKAISep 23, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=000c00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-23T08:19:23.021+0000)

It would depend on how well such a kit actually performed in game. "Broken" kits that don't perform in game clearly don't deserve the label.** You're still more likely to win if Thresh is on the enemy team and your chances of winning go up exponentially the less experienced that Thresh is.** Thresh's kit may be really strong fundamentally but his numbers suck ass, and his win rate reflects this. Kit strength 5%; Numbers on the kit 95%.

Except this is the garbage design philosophy that has been plaguing this game for god knows how long.

First of all, his kit is bigger than everybody, that's unfair, simple as that.

Secondly, any champ is bad when they are misused. Implying that it is somehow his only weakness is hilarious, because it looks like you're trying to pick bones from a mushroom soup.

Thirdly, an overloaded CC powerhouse shouldn't even be given strong offense/defence numbers to begin with. He doesn't lack stats, they are just placed in the utility side, CCs are a part of power budget which some people and Riot just forget quite often.

Finally his numbers don't suck ass. A quick trip to his wiki would let you realise.

Slamurai JackSep 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Except this is the garbage design philosophy that has been plaguing this game for god knows how long.

First of all, his kit is bigger than everybody, that's unfair, simple as that.

Secondly, any champ is bad when they are misused. Implying that it is somehow his only weakness I hilarious, because it looks like you're trying to pick bones from a mushroom soup.

Thirdly, an overloaded CC powerhouse shouldn't even be given strong offense/defence numbers to begin with. He doesn't lack stats, they are just placed in the utility side, CCs are a part of power budget which some people and Riot just forget quite often.

Finally his numbers don't suck ass. A quick trip to his wiki would let you realise.

Why? Give me a real reason; Calling a kit overloaded on its own doesn't mean anything.
That's not what I said. All I said was that Thresh has a very high skill floor and it takes a ton of experience to play him to the same level of effectiveness you would have with easier supports.
Yes, his numbers do suck ass because they've been nerfed so many times. His lantern now only shields Thresh and 1 other person instead of everyone in the area. His ult no longer damages beyond the first wall and has an enormously high CD. The CD's on all of his basic abilities are also very high compared to other supports. The base damage of both his Q and E are far lower than they were on release. His early tankiness also got gutted and he's among the squishiest supports in the game without items.

Champion SkinSep 23, 20152 votes

Actually Thresh biggest weakness is how average he is He isn't the best at anything Braum, Janna is better at protecting and disengaging (Morgana can also be good at protecting) Leona, Annie are better at engaging

Thresh really isn't best at anything in particular.. he is a generalist.... however it is true that he might be a bit too good in general but I don't think he is that over the top

FastAsHeckSep 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=000c00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-23T08:19:23.021+0000)

Kit strength 5%; Numbers on the kit 95%.

wait what, are you telling me that 3 cc abilities, long range save and initiation and disengage are just 5%? Reducing numbers wouldnt change the fact that he can initiate, save your adc, and disengage, unless it is the cc numbers that get nerfed. EVEN then, he would still have the utility of his hook and lantern, even if he did 0 damage and his 2 slows lasted 0.25 seconds each.

IceKingChernobogSep 23, 20154 votes

Kalista comes to mind when Uniqueness is the main factor of their kit being disgustingly broken

TerravirSep 23, 20154 votes

People get very emotional about balance changes. They lose a game to champA where champA did well and made their life particularly difficult, so champA needs to be nerfed.

No, no, nerf sounds to humane. It needs to be decapitated, dragged through a mile of broken glass and strung up like a piñata. So the next time they see this champion they can just wail endlessly on it and utterly dominate it. That is how nerfed it needs to be.

At this point it's more about getting revenge than it is about actual game balance for these kind of players.

StreetonSep 22, 20153 votes

Riot's idea of balance 2006-present

Slamurai JackSep 22, 201542 votes

Riot's method of balance is typically even worse. Nerf everything except the problem in an attempt to bring a champion into line, and then finally nerf the actual problem and leave all the other nerfs. Hi Lucian! Hi Kassadin! Hi Yasuo!

StreetonSep 22, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-09-22T23:13:46.839+0000)

Riot's method of balance is typically even worse. Nerf everything except the problem in an attempt to bring a champion into line, and then finally nerf the actual problem and leave all the other nerfs. Hi Lucian! Hi Kassadin! Hi Yasuo!

they take everything that is unique about the champion and nerf them so they become boring and terrible to play

DreadlocksSep 23, 20155 votes

Yeah thats why despite all the QQ threads about Zed Leblanc Lee Sin Riven etc.. they are still strong/unique for what they do, even after receiving nerfs.

Ryot NomadSep 23, 20153 votes

Riven got nerfed? When?

DreadlocksSep 23, 20153 votes

V5.9: General Movement speed reduced to 340 from 345. Wind Slash Missile speed reduced to 1600 from 2200.

Yosuke ApperuSep 23, 20154 votes

Oh no not a 5 movement speed nerf on a champion that rarely walks anyways xD She needed higher cool downs/ less damage.. not -5 ms

LovelleSep 23, 20152 votes

Yeah she's still strong and always will be until armor is good again (i.e. not being invalidated by penetration stacking).

1MazaSep 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah thats why despite all the QQ threads about Zed Leblanc Lee Sin Riven etc.. they are still strong/unique for what they do, even after receiving nerfs.

Lee and Riven aren't strong because of good balancing, they're good because they were designed with dumbass overloaded kits. And Zed and LeBlanc are both pretty bad right now. Zed is slowly coming back thanks to the recent ult buff, but LB is still pretty dead thanks to her last nerfs.

SaltyKrackaSep 22, 201558 votes

...You do realize that Yasuo's not particularly weak right now, right?

Slamurai JackSep 22, 201520 votes

Yes, and you can thank the 3 buffs since his gutting and many of his biggest counters being nerfed hard for that. Particularly his 4.21 buffs. Having his Q be be 4 seconds at all ranks and thus now being allowed to max E was an absolutely enormous buff to his laning phase which is where he struggles most. But 4.18 Yasuo was easily the worst champion in the game once they finally nerfed his base tankiness and mobility after nerfing everything else.

HalcyonDwellerSep 23, 20153 votes

They didn't buff the right things about Yasuo. He doesn't need double crit, its extra power in his kit that would be better spent on the abilities and themes that make his kit cool.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 24, 20153 votes

He needs the double crit, his entire kit is utility if they removed it, everything in his kit would have to be buffed an insane amount, making him A LOT less item dependent and extremely strong, a yasuo with a 300 damage Q, his E destroying people in lane and his ult would need a massive buff. I prefer having someone have to get fed first to do damage, not just having a shit ton of base damages.

Gj1h2GyuOJSep 24, 2015

Yeah, but the problem with Yasuo is that he gets an automatic shield that allows him to completely become immune to harass, AFK farm, his full build is literally statikk shiv and IE, as well as the free infinite dashes (Also manaless, and his flow doesnt factor into any of his abilities besides shield). At least 25% crit chance would be good, not double. then there are the free knockup tornadoes that he can pump out, and the range on those is just ridiculous.

Slamurai JackSep 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but the problem with Yasuo is that he gets an automatic shield that allows him to completely become immune to harass, AFK farm, his full build is literally statikk shiv and IE, as well as the free infinite dashes (Also manaless, and his flow doesnt factor into any of his abilities besides shield). At least 25% crit chance would be good, not double. then there are the free knockup tornadoes that he can pump out, and the range on those is just ridiculous.

You've clearly never played Yasuo against someone who wasn't garbage, if you've even played him at all. Your understanding of the champion makes it look like you played against one 1 time, got rekt, and then dodged every game the enemy team picked him from then on. And please, stop using the word "free" to describe anything a champion does, especially if you're describing one of their abilities (free infinite dashes). It just makes you look stupid. Might as well say Katarina gets free resets every time she gets a kill or assist.

TenSlashTenSep 23, 20154 votes

100% crit+ giants belt resetable passive shield is weak? Oh my bad.

FastAsHeckSep 23, 201518 votes

understand one thing. if riot removed the double crit, they would have to give yasuo normal stats, which he doesnt have right now. and if yasuo had normal stats and no reason AT ALL to build crit, you would end up with a Jax mk2 (triforce, botrk, tank). And you dont want that.

Slamurai JackSep 23, 20157 votes

{quoted}

understand one thing. if riot removed the double crit, they would have to give yasuo normal stats, which he doesnt have right now. and if yasuo had normal stats and no reason AT ALL to build crit, you would end up with a Jax mk2 (triforce, botrk, tank). And you dont want that.

Holy fucking shit, there's someone else who understands this. It's a miracle. Yasuo's crit passive is the only reason he's build as a carry and not a bruiser.

Starcall CaseySep 23, 20157 votes

I've honestly never thought of that before. You sir have really opened my eyes. Thank you. I honestly hate playing against yasuo, but thinking of a yasuo that would build bruiser and that could never die while doing insane damage would be terrifying.

FastAsHeckSep 24, 20151 votes

wait, is that the elusive open-minded-person-on-the-boards? Let me celebrate this moment!

Sona PingSep 24, 20151 votes

Nicely put. That may be true. However, that does not mean that double crit chance isn't a dumb idea in this game; one of a few dumb things found in Yasuo's kit.

Slamurai JackSep 24, 20152 votes

It's not dumb. It's the only way his kit isn't completely broken.

Sona PingSep 27, 20151 votes

In its current state: Yes, I agree. But that does not mean it is not a dumb idea and making up for or making his kit work does not excuse it for being really dumb. If it's the only way his kit isn't broken then that just means his broken, dumb kit is another set of problems.

DengedenSep 23, 20156 votes

Arguably all 3 of those are fine, Lucian because he's played everywhere, Kassadin because I play him (mid lane is a mess right now) and Yasuo because he's a decent top laner (even if is a little dependent on an EXP lead).

BorblandSep 23, 20157 votes

Yeah, Kassadin is underrated.

When I see one now, I know that guy will play him well, cause he's not FotM and that guy prbably master him, and that I'm gonna have a very bad time.

But people as usual only see only whats broken and only play these, it's sad...

63536895_DELSep 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ROPf01Kx,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-09-22T23:13:46.839+0000)

Riot's method of balance is typically even worse. Nerf everything except the problem in an attempt to bring a champion into line, and then finally nerf the actual problem and leave all the other nerfs. Hi Lucian! Hi Kassadin! Hi Yasuo!

This comment is the most beautiful boards post I've ever read, but Yasuo's problems aren't something that can be fixed by nerfs.

Slamurai JackSep 23, 20151 votes

Yasuo's "problems" aren't actually real. Just the whining of a bunch of people who hate being outplayed.

Gj1h2GyuOJSep 24, 20151 votes

he doesn't exactly leave a lot of room for counterplay

AkesgerothSep 24, 20152 votes

"This champion is OP. What? Why don't I play that champion if I think it's OP? Mind your own business!"

Slamurai JackSep 24, 20151 votes

I have yet to meet a person that thinks Lee Sin is OP and actually plays him. Same with Yasuo. They refuse to ever touch the champion and thus learn very little about them, just so they can continue to cry OP. Want to learn how to deal with an "OP" champ? Play it and see how people wreck you. It shouldn't take long.