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A Compendium detailing why People need to stop crying so much about Kit Reworks in general

DeadUnborn··4 votes·473 views

Tons of people complain that Riot's reworks are complete failures. however they tunel-vision on the bad and forget most reworks were in the end successful. sure some took time and needed follow up to get there, but this was because class updates presented time limitations. Here is a complete (or almost complete) compendium of champion reworks. Reworks that fel flat just needed more time to get there, which is the reason Riot doesn't want to do class updates anymore

NOTE: Keep in mind GP and Tristana were VGUs, before you comment: "this champ only needs a visual update"

One offs:

Fiora: Improvement Her kit gained a lot of skill expression, her W was updated to be what the ability should be Q and E stayed true to what they were but updated. If there is something to complain is that she has a lot of hidden power in her E and passive that players tend to not notice. Her ult was also produced in a time where Riot wanted to give all champs utility in case they fell behind. The AoE heal is not thematically cohesive and probably could be switched for a more “greedy ult” She should have had her VO updated

Shen: Pros and Cons Removing passive sustain from kit made him more interactive Rework added spells that were not in line to what Shen used to be Rework didn’t fix pro play balance His visuals were greatly updated, but he should have had a VO update Kassadin: improvement Took a while but he is in a much better spot now (scales without being abusive). Should have received a new VO

Singed: improvement.Took a while but in a much better spot now. There is a disconnect between lore and gameplay goofiness. He should have received new VO

Teemo: made his passive and ult more usable, and improved gameplay

Rek Sai: improvement.She is more thematically cohesive, and balance-able for pro and regular play

Aatrox: band-aid rework, didn’t improve much although helped

Kindred: Failed. Her problem is her ult brings too much utility for a carry, which makes her basic abilities overloaded when useful. She also has problems balancing experienced vs non-experienced players with jungle kiting. Finally making her use crit and have range scaling does not fit her thematics or jungle role.

Juggernauts: First class update, mostly failed

Skarner and Mordekaizer: updates were toxic and got nerfed afterward.

Garen: didn’t change much and feels mostly the same as there is no choice in target selection for villains

**Darius: **after proper balance was a huge success

ADCs: Mostly good despite what people say

Miss Fortune: Improvement. Huge success visually as well as to her usability (ult dealing damage, her having a passive to play around). Yes she could have further improvements both to gameplay and VO, but her update made her better

Twitch: Improvement to stealth reset but ult lacks counter late game in certain scenarios

Ashe: great improvement after fine tuning passive (made her viable)

Lucian: Still has trouble getting out of a generalist situation, where depending on item balance he is god or crap

Kog maw: Improvements to his ult, rest of rework was failed

Quinn: Improvement to her kit after fine tuning. Made her viable in certain scenarios and updated mechanics in passive and Q

Cait: gave her an identity as a siege champion. Damage output and harass early game still causes frustration, but was a step in the right direction to have her power conditioned to her w and e.

**Graves: **Took a while to balance, but after his numbers were tuned he has greatly improved his gameplay and thematic

**Corki: **Update gave him a niche and cool mechanics. However this is a very dated champ and honestly, needs a full VGU to get a cohesive identity that isn’t bound to item balance (poke vs burst also)

Mage update: Only real problem was malzahar, which was later corrected

Malzahar: Took a while to get it right, but the update was an improvement after passive and W were adjusted. Honestly, could have used more work but he is in an ok spot now, with a more cohesive thematic as a minion mancer.

Ziggs: great improvement as sieging champ to passive and W

Vel Coz: Unnecessary tbh but didn’t make him worst. Improved itemization paths with cdr builds

Veigar: Great counterplay improvement

Cassiopeia: Improvement with her passive update

Heimer: Improvement since he no longer has fire and forget abilities and better passive

Brand: Fell flat. Update didn’t hurt him nor improved him much. Ult works better though

Vladimir: Update made his E a better spell. More time should have been used to improve Q and Ult

Fiddlesticks: When it released the passive update improved him. He is an old champ and needs a full VGU though

Kennen: QoL changes improved him a lot

Anivia: Made her a viable champion that is not gated by her one shot

Xerath: It's alright and playable. Update was an improvement from the previous mess he was, but right now he has too much counter play (his abilities can be dodged too easily because of their range)

Annie: Huge improvement to her gameplay. She, however, could use a VGU to be more thematically cohesive and improve her visuals

Victor: His gameplay was improved and gave you a choice on how to use and improve your abilities. Problem is he is too defined by early snowballs translated to massive wave clear.

Swain: His gameplay was improved. He has a VGU coming in the future

Zyra: After some time, she has landed in an ok spot. Some people are angry she is played as a support though

**Ahri: **Same problems as Lucian. Her highs are too high, her lows aren’t low enough. She works in too many situations

Assassin update: The only real fails here are Rengar and LB

Le blanc: Update didn’t fix her problems and arguably added others

Rengar: rengar-mains (which a lot of people were) didn’t like update “feel”. Still has a lot of balance problems in with ult and lack of empowered choices(almost always one is the best choice)

Kha: Finally viable while having meaningful decisions on evolutions

Fizz: Improvement vs previous iterations (w being a pop and damage taken away from ult); could still use work

Nidalee: Problems balancing her pro vs regular. Defined gameplay and made her more cohesive, so it was an improvement vs Q one shot

Talon: Improvement over previous iterations and defined his thematics and niche better

Shaco: QoL improved him but all other changes had to be subsequently worked on, causing unnecessary problems because his gameplay wasn’t changed all that much, only his build. Diminishing early oppression with Q nerf was an improvement.

Zed: unnecessary changes tbh

Katarina: Huge improvement made her express her skill and updated her mechanics to be more fun

Akali: alleviated her oppressive burst. She needs a VGU though

Supports: almost everyone failed to notice supports were changed as a class, because it wasn’t overtly announced by Riot.

Leona: Still one dimensional, but having her have some damage on engage was a good change

Alistar: Finally fixed passive sustain with E and reduced his downtimes

Soraka: People complain because she isn’t in a great state. But her rework was a huge improvement over the mana and health dispenser deal she had back in the day. Could still use work but improved

Bard: improvement to passive having more meeps and scaling better was an improvement

Nunu: Needs a BGU but making the passive less confusing was an improvement, as well as the QoL changes to his kit

Sona: Still too passive of a champion, but her ult and basic ability range usability was an improvement.

Zilean: Changes made him express his skill better and have less hidden power which were improvements. He needs a VGU though

Tanks: most were improved despite people complaining

Cho gath: Some item specific interactions aside, his gameplay update improved his usability a lot. He needs a VGU

Rammus: need a VGU but his gameplay was greatly improved (passive power changed to actual CC)

Amumu: Passive hidden power changed to visible power which was improved, he needs a VGU

Sejuani: Problematic ult removed, more skill expression now. Improved

Maokai: after rework numbers were adjusted, his updated improved his gameplay to express more skill

Zac: Made him way more fun to play and changed raw damage for CC. He still faces counter play problems and frustration from CC chains. Update has pros and cons

29 Comments

Mordepool2 votes

The Rule when determining whether a Rework was a failure or not.

When a Champion experiences a large gameplay shift and Players (especially champion mains) express legitimate concerns about those changes.

If those concerns are ignored the Rework is a failure If they are debated between delevoper and community to reach a mutually beneficial outcome( that being gameplay health and thematic feel) the Rework is a success even considering the limitations placed on the Champion

Communication is the key

DeadUnborn1 votes

Communication is definetely good to have, but not a golden rule I would say

For example, if many Rengar mains claim they miss oneshoting with the ult and not having counter play, then communication would do nothing to solve the issue. Currently Yasuo is on the same position: Yasuo main will call you a crybaby that doesn't know how to play around Yasuo's overloaded kit, while non Yasuo players will call out his oppressiveness. It is not that clear cut, so the way I measure it is if the rework kept true to what a champion originally was, while offering more levers to balance the champion in the future. Taking mains into account is important in measuring "keeping true to a champ" but not the only variable, as mechanical expression and updating champions kits so other players enjoy the champ is also important

Awhegark1 votes

Nah, I say let the balance team do as they think is right. I mean lets look at Sion, I remenber back in the day the so called mains wanted him to be rework into a lifesteal monster. At the end we got a very balanced champion that resembles nothing of old Sion.

DeadUnborn1 votes

hmmm, that's my point too XD

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

Communication is definetely good to have, but not a golden rule I would say

For example, if many Rengar mains claim they miss oneshoting with the ult and not having counter play, then communication would do nothing to solve the issue.

Finding the Balance point between Overall game health and what that Champion feels like to play is the goal. However Overall game health > Thematic feel

Sorry Rengar mains it's not going back to one shot no counterplay. There is no good argument to support that playstyle so it got dropped Simple as that

KoKoboto2 votes

Tons of people complain that Riot's reworks are complete failures. however they tunel-vision on the bad and forget most reworks were in the end successful. sure some took time and needed follow up to get there, but this was because class updates presented time limitations. Here is a complete (or almost complete) compendium of champion reworks. Reworks that fel flat just needed more time to get there, which is the reason Riot doesn't want to do class updates anymore.

I recommend only focusing on a few champions. At least try giving appropriate time to each champion because you have zero reasoning for why some reworks were or were not successful. This is far from a compendium and is just notes that for the most part have no context.

Quinn: Improvement to her kit after fine tuning. Made her viable in certain scenarios and updated mechanics in passive and Q

I'm gonna talk about Quinn because she was not a success but you are saying she was improved.

First improvements to her kit.

Her ultimate is about this roaming theme but it just doesn't work for Quinn in this iteration and is the most unhealthy form of roaming. Complete failure here and will remain a failure until she gets another rework which changes it or they revert her:

Roaming isn't a unique mechanic. Literally any champion in the game can roam just by walking around the map mid laner walks bot, top laner goes mid, bot lane goes top. Other champions have more interesting ways to roam like Shen, Aurelion Sol, Corki, Evelynn, Kha'Zix, Taliyah, Twisted Fate, Ryze, Galio, Talon. All of them have unique mechanics to their roaming for the most part but Quinn's is just bonus movement speed. That's all she has.

It's a hard to balance mechanic. A lot of these champions with kits specific to roaming have had many balance implications. Twisted Fate way back in the day. Taliyah when she could clear the whole wave level 1 and just go bot lane 24/7. Corki right now being a pretty good lane bully while also having great roam potential. Galio super strong laning with a arguably better version of Shen ult. Shen because Shen. And the list goes on. By creating a roam based champion Riot needs to give the champion the ability to roam. This means high damage to wave clear, mobility to roam AND crowd control to make sure the roams work out. You put all these mechanics on a champion and you're bound to get some people complaining about them. And note all the roam champions I've listed have been complained about a bunch. Aurelion Sol and Evelynn might be exceptions because they are a bit harder to play, same with the new Ryze.

Roaming needs to be made distinct from other champions. All the champions I've listed have unique ways in which they roam, the biggest similarity is with Shen and Galio but both of them have pretty different play styles that make up for it. Also Galio can be played better with divers while Shen is better for protecting that one squishy. Riot having created all these unique roam mechanics has left Quinn with a really boring ult that is just movement speed.

Quinn's roaming is the least interesting out of all the reworks. This relates back to the previous point, sure she is distinct but she's also the most dull when it comes to roaming. Old Quinn could roam and had good roams but it wasn't core to her theme, it was just something you could do if you were smart about using Tag Team. Tag Team had more restrictions placed on it and more strategy behind the ability. You had this high cooldown ability that gave you 20 seconds to work with that completely changed your play style and role. Quinn players felt rewarded for using this ability well and it was it really got the blood pumping fighting as Valor and getting into the heat of the battle and all that. The new ultimate has little strategy behind it other than basic game knowledge. The ability has no cooldown and is on permanently until you cancel it meaning you don't gotta worry about losing the ability unless combat. It also made for pretty toxic interactions as we've seen with lethality Quinn, roaming mid than going straight back to lane with little repercussion, relates back to the second point on hard to balance. Overall it's unhealthy.

Last point. Valor carrying Quinn looks fucking stupid. I could understand for a carrying for short while but what we got now makes no fucking sense.

And her Q which they overloaded and not holds too much power in her kit.

Blinding assault is overloaded and takes up a lot of Quinn's power budget. It's a staple part of Quinn's gameplay but I think this will also need to be changed somehow. Also we've all said this before but it kinda looks like Quinn is hurling Valor at the enemy :P Dissecting this ability a bit:

  • Long Range
  • High damage, low base 120 base but, 120% total AD scaling in AoE
  • Nearsight pretty much hard CC against a lot of range champions
  • Applies Harrier mark (effectively giving her all the benefits of Heightened Senses as well)
  • The ability is nice but it just does too much when I think about it and eats up a lot of her kit. I love this ability and I think it is core to defining her play style and retaining her ability to duel / assassinate but it needs to be changed somehow. I just wanted to establish the flaws in this ability because although it's really core to Quinn I believe it's going to have to change for her rework to be brought to fullest potential.

I copy pasted this from a comment I made two weeks ago.

DeadUnborn1 votes

I didn't go in-depth with all champions because that would be unreadable. We can have nice discussions with a particular champion that people latch onto like you are doing now, however, which was what I planned; note I did give a little summary of why all champs worked out the way they did.

Regarding Quinn: She could definitely be improved upon still, but I stand by me saying her current kit is better than her previous one. Before rework, transforming into a melee carry as an ult was extremely inefficient stat wise. Quinn's build made it so that unless the target she was trying to assassinate as Valor was completely helpless, she couldn't get in for the kill because of the abilities she had. The only thing of Value in that ult was transforming back to Quinn to deal the bonus damage, and the CD was so long that you never had an opportunity to use it properly. Also you say Valor carrying Quinn is dumb, I say a Human jumping into the air so a bird fights for her with her wings is dumb; my point is that argument is completely opinion based

What Quinn's update improved: her passive resting both on Q and E, making her more viable her ult functioning so she can get in to assassinate targets and cover lanes The nearsight in my opinion is and improvement over the blind which is an outdated mechanic, to be honest (it is only fair on teemo because his kit is so crap, and I say this having mastery seven on teemo).

Sure, I'll grant you Quinn's kit could be improved a lot upon, but her current version is way better than her previous one. Despite what people claim to remeber, Valor was crap for anything other than transforming back to execute targets, since he was designed as a dps character but because of how Quinn builds he died instantly and couldn't provide damage most times

KoKoboto1 votes

Are you discussing right now? The only context I read through all that was "because of the abilities she had" but that doesn't even mean anything because you didn't explain why. I'll just continue copy pasting from my old comments.

Goals of rework are for healthy, distinct, fun, thematic gameplay.

Her ultimate fails this:

The new ultimate has little strategy behind it other than basic game knowledge. The ability has no cooldown and is on permanently until you cancel it meaning you don't gotta worry about losing the ability unless combat. It also made for pretty toxic interactions as we've seen with lethality Quinn, roaming mid than going straight back to lane with little repercussion, relates back to the second point on hard to balance. Overall it's unhealthy.

And here's reasons why the older ult was better:

Ultimate... well I think I explained why her new ultimate sucks enough so I'll go and describe her old ultimate. If vault made Quinn unique than tag team made Quinn unparalleled, remarkable, distinct, and other other words that mean unique but more unique. I've already mentioned how you could go from backline to backline so I'll talk about other stuff. The ability in general felt very smooth to use, had a smooth cast animation for the swap out that didn't hinder using abilities right away. Felt impactful when using it and you noticed the results instantly, it felt like an ultimate ability. Moving as Valor just felt better overall and looked smoother as well with his wings out gliding around. People who mastered Quinn knew about all the different purposes for Quinn's ultimate. To name a few, roaming, diving, kiting, repositioning, and just naming them doesn't do the stragegies or knowledge required justice, it was more than just diving or kiting. I have some many memories using the old tag team but if I begun talking about them I wouldn't be able to stop.

If you want me to give examples (the context/ the "why") than just ask.

More copy paste: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/K4Zhc3Uw-reasons-to-revert-quinn https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/faTpNuuw-rito-can-you-ritoers-revert-the-quinn-rework-please https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OnoFp8Ky-quinn-and-valor-rework-bestest-way

Last one is whatever. Mostly just adding to the argument.

DeadUnborn1 votes

I explained myself in the previous post. I invite you to read it thoroughly. I talk about what abilities were improved and how. specially the ult I refered to in detail, althoug also the passive and Q

KoKoboto1 votes

You did not explain yourself.

DeadUnborn1 votes

from previous post:

Regarding Quinn: She could definitely be improved upon still, but I stand by me saying her current kit is better than her previous one.** Before rework, transforming into a melee carry as an ult was extremely inefficient stat wise**. Quinn's build made it so that unless the target she was trying to assassinate as Valor was completely helpless, she couldn't get in for the kill because of the abilities she had. The only thing of Value in that ult was transforming back to Quinn to deal the bonus damage, and the CD was so long that you never had an opportunity to use it properly. Also you say Valor carrying Quinn is dumb, I say a Human jumping into the air so a bird fights for her with her wings is dumb; my point is that argument is completely opinion based

What Quinn's update improved: her passive reseting both on Q and E, making her more viable her ult functioning so she can get in to assassinate targets and cover lanes The nearsight in my opinion is and improvement over the blind which is an outdated mechanic, to be honest (it is only fair on teemo because his kit is so crap, and I say this having mastery seven on teemo).

KoKoboto1 votes

She could definitely be improved upon still

Okay, how?

** Before rework, transforming into a melee carry as an ult was extremely inefficient stat wise**

How?

she couldn't get in for the kill because of the abilities she had.

How?

The only thing of Value in that ult was transforming back to Quinn to deal the bonus damage

CD was so long that you never had an opportunity to use it properly

How would a shorter CD on her ult allow her to use it properly? It's an ultimate for a reason, you don't use it all the time.

What Quinn's update improved: her passive reseting both on Q and E, making her more viable

How? And if so do they match with the goals of champion reworks/updates. Viable is not the same as an improved/successful rework.

her ult functioning so she can get in to assassinate targets and cover lanes The nearsight in my opinion is and improvement over the blind which is an outdated mechanic, to be honest (it is only fair on teemo because his kit is so crap, and I say this having mastery seven on teemo).

How is blind outdated? If anything the change is 50/50. How is Teemo's kit crap?

DeadUnborn2 votes

Sorry dude, you are thicker than a thesaurus. Most of what you are asking is obvious or can be inferred from what I wrote. I'll explain it still

1.-Visuals, VO, have her abilities be more cohesively tied to her thematics in terms of VFX and mechanics, having her abilities be more satisfactory (w and ult); I'm not writing paper kits because that is just going down the rabbit hole and arguing nonsense

2.- Ranged champions always have inherent advantages over melee champs. This is because they can deal damage from afar, as opposed to melees who have to get closer to enemies to deal damage and have a harder time. Because of this, usually ranged champions can build more damage items while melees have to opt into defense to offset the distance they have to cover to get into range which exposes them to attacks. Before rework Valor could get in for a kill, but because Quinn is a carry and she had no efficient escape abilities, her adc build made her super squishy and thus she died. Now because she transforms she can do her combo from a distance, which makes more sense because she doesn't put herself at risk as a melee would. Note that the few melee carried that exist have a ton of mobility(riven dashes, yasuo dashes, yi Q and R, yasuo dashes, trynda dash) and survival abilities(trynda ult, Yi q and w, yasuo wind wall and tornado, riven shield) to offset this, which Quinn didn't, as her vault has a long animation time.

3.- As I explained above, reworked quinn only had her E to get in to kill targets. Therefore, Valor was ultra susceptible to CC or burst as he was a dps character. This meant the windows to go in for kills with the build Quin had to build (squishy) were few.

4.-Having a long CD on the ultimate meant that after you use it, it you can't use it for a long while....(duh?). This means that if more opportunities to assassinate targets presented themselves, more often than not the ult would be on CD and unable to use. However, the ult CD had to be longer than most because if not Quinn would be able to build "a jax build" and proceed to demolish everyone with her super ult stats

5.-her passive was improved because now she has agency and skill expression when using it, rather than a lot of her damage be RNG based like it used to before. This is an improvement over the previous version (never even touched the subject of the rework goals being met or not, it is not what I was discussing and I said in 1 it can still be imrpoved upon), which would select targets at random (seriously.... this isn't obvious to you?)

6.- Blind is outdated because it is a mechanic from an era where fights lasted long times and most characters used basic attacks. Not only is it a mechanic that is way too much match up dependent (either it counters hard or not at all) but is also imbalanced because it has to last long enough for it to be appreciated, and counters other marksmen too hard on 1v1s therefore. Nearsight on the other hand is designed so that it only counters people from afar, increasing counter play. Also because the effect is more powerful, it can last less time, giving opponets countered by it more breathing room

7.- Teemo's kit is crap (sigh, you are thick) because his only outputs are autoattacks, a point and click spell and wards that explode if you touch them. He just walks and autoattacks, and is only playable because he can abuse this strength early game. to compensate for his blind (which I already explained) he has the extremely low range for a marksman (500). His w is passive movement speed and active movement speed, his e is a passive, his ult gives him no meaningfull combat power spike. People play him (including myself) because they find him fun, not because his kit is well put together (he is a really old champ). Teemo's kit only works against melee champs with not a lot of mobility. In evenly skilled matches, he can't beat mages, he can't beat people that outsutain or outrange him and he can't beat characters that can jump on him, and even those he beats outscale him level 6. Teemo only wins when the teemo player has substantial skill and game knwoledge advantages over his opponent, to make up for teemo's crap kit

Valor Bot1 votes

While I disagree with the outright removal of Quinn's old ult, you make good arguments all around. One minor point I'd like to make is that Quinn's passive was not entirely random pre-rework. You could get it to work how you wanted to by attacking your preferred enemy just before the mark cooldown was up. This eliminated all elements of RNG from her passive. What truly made Quinn's kit wonky before the rework were the bugs that plagued her from her release, such as Vault launching her in random directions, Q not properly applying the blind, and of course, Harrier not marking the right targets.

Just as a matter of curiosity, do you think Tag Team/melee Valor would've worked if he had an escape in his kit? So, he could go in with Vault, get a kill, then get out with some sort of Vault reset or Skystrike launching him/Quinn towards a target location or something. I feel most of the issues with the old ult stemmed from a squishy melee dps with no defenses lacking an escape, this would've made them feel more assassin-like.

DeadUnborn2 votes

I will admit I did not know you could manipulate Qunn's RNG that way, although I was aware of how bugged her passive and E were, which is why I said it was very RNG based

That would have definitely helped, although the kit would still not have been cohesive. Valor's Q as a blind is built for prolonged fights, as the passive attack speed on W. I would also be concerned with Valor having an escape countering immobile adcs too much, as he would come flying at incredible speed, blind the adc (he can use QSS for ashe or varus ult), wreck the adc with no counter play and then get out.

However just thinking from valor's perspective having an escape would have made him a lot more viable for sure

KoKoboto1 votes

I ask you to elaborate not because I don't understand but because how can you create a discussion but not elaborate? Almost your entire post has been literally nothing. All I read was labeling what a champion does without giving reasons to why we should believe it was an improvement. The downvotes the main post has gotten shows this. Next reason was so that I could tear down all your arguments on Quinn in one place rather than drag on a conversation for a long time.

1 One: Yeah I agree. I would also add in blinding assault.

2 Two: First you're making an assumption that Quinn is just an ADC. If played conventionally Quinn will 100% of the time fail because of her limitations. She has shorter range than other ADCs and abilities that don't increase her DPS significantly but give her more utility. To back this up let's look at 3 conventional ADCs.

Caitlyn: Long range and on-hit steroid (headshots) allow her to easily DPS the frontline. Q allows her to do some waveclear from a safe distance and hit enemies from far range. Her traps help her with sieging, another thing ADCs are chosen for. Her E has a long cooldown meaning she can't use it to often and mostly uses it as an escape. Her ultimate is for sniping people, picking off stragglers or getting some damage off before a fight. Long range and abilities, traps, on-hit steroid, and some mobility is what makes Caitlyn a better ADC than Quinn.

Sivir: Mediocre range but her ricochet allows her to have immense presence in a teamfight. The ability means her short range is neglible because she can hit literally everything in front of her and crit. Boomerang blade allows Sivir to continue the DPS even if someone gets too far out of her range. So Sivir is also a better a better ADC than Quinn.

Lucian: Shortest range for marksmen excluding Urgot so what makes him a better ADC than Quinn? High mobility and strong passive allow him to get off more auto attacks faster. Short cooldowns means he deals high amounts of consistent damage when he gets in range. However if the enemy manages to get our of range he has his ultimate to back him up so he's not entirely handicapped. So Lucian is also a better ADC than Quinn.

You don't pick Quinn as a standard marksmen carry. You pick her because she specializes at taking down other marksmen. None of her abilities promoted standard marksmen gameplay because if you wanted to pick a standard carry you're better off picking anything else. Quinn could snowball insanely well as Valor (she can still now but the gameplay is toxic) and it set her apart from other champions.

See this is a common trend with people who have no experience with Quinn. Old Quinn is easy to play but had a tremendous learning curve in using tag team properly. A majority of players say that the ability is suicide but other skirmisher types do the exact same with squishy builds. Of course for the mediocre Quinn player who just picked her up would see the ability as useless. They probably do exactly as you say, just dive in without any thought with the ability. If you want me to tell you ways to use the ability just ask because a good Quinn didn't just die as Valor.

Also she could always combo from distance. She had survivability in her Q and she has mobility in her vault and massive movement speed steroid. Vault only has a long animation time when used as Quinn at max range. Quinn isn't a standard carry and comparing her to other marksmen or skirmishers does not work.

3 Three: She also had a massive M/S steroid. Kill windows is another huge learning curve for Quinn that I can't explain right here because it's worthy of an entire post on its own. Also Quinn has always had a versatile build. You could go for tankier items like black cleaver and still work. Although she was squishy she had tools to survivability.

4 Four: She didn't have super ult stats, there was power traded between Quinn and Valor. In terms of stats you gained double A/S from heightened senses and increased mobility. So I'm not seeing any super ult stats.

The trade off is also part of tag team's massive learning curve. People don't understand that you're losing and gaining when you use tag team. Long CD meant that Quinn couldn't be what she is now, a roaming cancerous champion that builds lethality and one shots from range. The cooldown also enforced proper usage and strategic thinking unlike many 'ultimates' that people just throw out willy nilly . The long duration also meant that you could get a ton out of the ability making the long cooldown not that bad. For example, you could potentially do a full teamfight as Valor.

Extending my point on Quinn having versatile builds, CDR builds were possible on Quinn with essence reaver and etc. Finally all ultimates have long cooldowns so this isn't really a viable argument. Just running through other high impact ultimate abilities you will find that they have a similar cooldown.

5 Five: The passive is still RNG though so I don't know what you're getting at. Vault always applied the passive before and having blinding assault apply it as well had made the ability overloaded. Also you must discuss rework goals if you're gonna be talking about a rework improving a champion. If you don't meet the goals distinct, fun, thematic, healthy than the rework is not an improvement at all.

If the champion is not distinct than why would you ever play them over a different one. If the champion is not fun why would you play them. If the champion doesn't have a clear thematic than they could just be a gray box with legs. Thematic also defines a champions role in the game, assassin, tank, etc, having an unclear thematic makes the champion hard to balance and become outdated. All VGUs are examples of this.

6 Six: Stuns, silences, knock-ups, fears, suppressions, slows are also from a time where fights lasted longer and are still fine in the game. Every single champion in the game auto attacks so the ability is always useful. It is most useful against those whose main source of damage is auto attacks like marksmen and fighters. Using your logic I could call silences outdated because they're only useful against people who cast a lot. Silences are just as useful against an marksmen and a mage. Ideally you would want to use it on a mage, but you won't simply not use the silence just because your enemy doesn't cast many spells. Blind is the same as hard CC against champions it works well against and people have always built QSS against it because blind is just that strong.

Are stuns unbalanced because they have to last long enough in order to be effective? There's very little context to this statement and not much I can say about it. What is the point you're trying to make here exactly? Blind works well against marksmen but doesn't counter them. Stuns, knock-ups, fears, suppressions are ALWAYS worse because they disable your champion even more.

Nearsight is 50/50 like I said before. Benefits of blind are that the enemy can't auto attack you at all. Benefits of nearsight is that the enemy can't auto attack you at all if you're far enough otherwise they will be able to auto attack you. I like nearsight as a mechanic more but I won't call it more healthy than blind. Also nearsight arguably hard counters marksmen even more than blind does. They can't auto attack and now they can't cast their long range spells. The duration of Quinn's old blind and new nearsight are the same btw. Nearsight is usually a more powerful ability as well, hit almost any skill shot champion and they're completely out of commission. It removes breathing room because now they have to make so many guesses about where the enemy is and where their team is. Vision is huge in league.

7 Seven: All I got to say here is look at his winrate. His kit is fine, he could definitely do better with a rework and feel better but he is fine. This ties back to rework goals. Thematic, fun, healthy, distinct. I say a majority of Teemo's gameplay lacks distinctness because of the reasons you provided; walk around and auto attack with a point click blind, his ultimate is very unique though.

Have I seen you before? Why do you keep calling me thick?

Edit: Boards formatting fixes

Also here's a link to why discussion requires you to explain stuff, or at least an example. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jJQuqLdp-the-problem-isnt-the-stoneplate-interaction-the-problem-is-vorpal-spikes

DeadUnborn1 votes

Pfff, I knew you wanted me to elaborate on so you could nit pick and ramble about what you wanted to discuss, no worries :). I called you thick because most of what I explained previously was self-evident with minimal game knowledge, making further explaining redundant

Now you bring a lot of points I that have little to do with what I said or are extremely subjective. That being said there are a couple succinct points I want to make:

1.- Silence is an outdated mechanic also, that's why Riot removed it from most champions

2.-I invite you to go fetch Quinns update announcement, they explain in detail why most of what you wrote is garbage :)

You know... I planned to start quoting that mess of a wall text you took a time to build, inserting "whys" and "hows" to show how "you didn't elaborate on your arguments. Then I realized is not really worth it as you just ramble on nonsense.

KoKoboto1 votes

Silence was removed from Kassadin, LeBlanc, and Talon because giving an assassin insane burst while also removing the enemy's ability to counter was toxic.

I didn't ramble and I did not nit pick. Everything I said related to every point you elaborated on.

  1. I agreed.
  2. I told you how Quinn isn't a conventional carry and shouldn't be compared to other marksmen or skirmishers.
  3. I told you that those weaknesses aren't actually weaknesses. The vault animation is not slow. She has survivability. Tag-team has a sharp learning curve.
  4. You said her ult was bad and didn't allow her to function because of balance implications. I told you that her ult isn't "super stats", doesn't make her like jax, lasted long so you had a ton of options, she has different types of builds.
  5. I told you that the passive has not changed significantly enough to say it's improved.
  6. I told you that your argument about blind is very weak.
  7. I told you that Teemo does not have a crap kit.

If you're talking about this: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/preseason.html

Than I already refuted everything they said in my first comment. Unless you're referring to something I haven't read which is highly unlikely because I HAVE read everything about Quinn.

DeadUnborn1 votes

I told you how Quinn isn't a conventional carry and shouldn't be compared to other marksmen or skirmishers.

Opinion, all marskmen are different

I told you that those weaknesses aren't actually weaknesses. The vault animation is not slow. She has survivability. Tag-team has a sharp learning curve.

after Quinn clashes with the target, she has to travel back, which is slower than most dashes. She also needs to use it as valor to get in fighting range, and can't use it to escape. Ok lets do this: how does old Quinn get in to kill the enemy carry if he is somewhat alone in a teamfight, but enemy allies are relatively close.

You said her ult was bad and didn't allow her to function because of balance implications. I told you that her ult isn't "super stats", doesn't make her like jax, lasted long so you had a ton of options, she has different types of builds.

Your different type of builds argument is crap: either you build to optimize for her combat pattern as a maksman or a skirmisher as valor, you couldn't do both. It was always better to build as a carry because most of the time you played as a carry. The ult gave tons of movement speed and practically capped your attack speed while having the ability to blind enemy carries, if the ult had a lower CD, then it would had been optimal to build like you would on Jax (damage and survivability) which would had broke her because she would had been able to dive carries with no repercussion 24/7. Her ult was crap because the way it was designed it clashed between different identities (caster markman, dps character and assassin) and thus had a lot of potential power that couldn't be used in practice because of the long CD which kept the ult in check.

I told you that the passive has not changed significantly enough to say it's improved.

It was, the bugs were fixed and now you can reliably do a 3 proc combo, which is a huge improvement and balances her damage output from potential to reliable

I told you that your argument about blind is very weak. I told you that Teemo does not have a crap kit.

I'm not bothering with this because it is nonesense, read the previous post thoroughly for the explanation or look for Rioter red posts on the matter, they will tell you almost the same thing

For reference, Quinns nearsight lasts 1.5 seconds, teemo's blind goes up to 2.5

KoKoboto1 votes

No it's not an opinion. Quinn has been labelled as a specialist by Riot and she always was a specialist. Although she wasn't labeled as specialist before her rework I can easily imagine that Riot would call her specialist and doesn't fit into the role of marksmen like others. It's not an opinion and I gave reasons why.

CDR is way more accessible so there is no CDR build anymore.

However Quinn has always had a tank busting build, crit build, armor pen (now lethality) build, and triforce build. The builds still work on current Quinn and you can see people talking about it on Quinn mains reddit (I rarely use reddit but it's there).

No Valor isn't Jax. Jax has his 3 hit passive, bonus ar/mr, hybrid damage, counter stirke. Even if you could be Valor 24/7 you wouldn't be able to do the same things as Jax. It'd be more like Master Yi.

Quinn isn't a caster marksman because you would pick Corki, Varus, Lucian, Miss Fortune for that. She wasn't a DPS character because you would pick literally any other marksmen because they often had better DPS, I made the comparison with Caitlyn, Sivir and Lucian. She wasn't just an assassin as well. So yeah she's a specialist and her ult was only crap to people who couldn't get the learning curve down which I mentioned numerous times. Her learning curve to tag-team is really steep because there's so many options.

3 proc combo is due to other parts of Quinn's kit. Not the passive. The passive is pretty much the same except it has less cooldown. I wouldn't call that part of her rework but a buff. For example I wouldn't call the changes to Lux's passive a rework (adding an AP ratio), it's just a buff.

I read your explanation and refuted all of it. I also refuted the rationale behind not reverting her here which I linked in my first comment: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/K4Zhc3Uw-reasons-to-revert-quinn

I don't think any Rioter could argue that Quinn's rework was an improvement. And I have been following Rioters on Quinn and addressed their points in the links I provided.

Edit: First time using the search engine and I can't find nothing about Quinn specifically. If you could direct me that'd be great. However I am pretty sure that I read everything.

DeadUnborn1 votes

#thic

go read the comment again. I said valor could abuse a build like jax's, not that they play the same

I called her a mix because her Q an E are caster abilities, her W favors dps playstyles and her ult works best on an assassin champion #thicc

The rest is nonesense. Just because you write walls miles tall of text doesn't mean you are correct. I have defended my points already and I'm not gonna argue in circles. If you care or answers they are in previous posts

KoKoboto1 votes

Yeah? Well Valor can't abuse a build like Jax. Jax gets a lot more free damage meaning he can go tanky, Valor doesn't. Valor can try for bruisery builds but you gotta build damage mostly and focus on damage items. Nothing like 2 items into tank that Jax does.

Also that's far from a wall of text. Largest paragraph I made was 150 words max. If you can't take the time to read than I'll go back to my first point again

"I recommend only focusing on a few champions. At least try giving appropriate time to each champion because you have zero reasoning for why some reworks were or were not successful. This is far from a compendium and is just notes that for the most part have no context."

Or post in general discussion next time. This is gameplay where people DISCUSS gameplay. You say that everything I'm talking about is nonsense but I have made no assumptions. Although my evidence is lacking in this case specifically (I have no direct examples or sources), my arguments are still strong. I've went back to your other posts numerous times and I see no faults in my reasoning, and the only thing you've said against it was "that's nonsense". ¯\ (ツ)/¯ Also there hasn't been any circles. The only time I repeat myself is to connect points I make.

I could use that "wall of text" logic against you as well. Just because you wrote all the jumbo and called it a "compendium" doesn't mean it is one and frankly it isn't. You might as well delete this whole post tbh cause it's picked up a bunch of downvotes. Seems like others agree :/

But main point is that Quinn rework is not an improvement.

Edit: Also seems like I forgot to talk about vault. Quinn using vault is, you might have heard this before, part of her learning curve. In cases where you use it as Quinn from max range the ability is pretty slow yeah. However those cases are only when Quinn is chasing which means it doesn't really matter to much.

Using vault as Valor it's just a quick dash. Just looking at the ability, I'd say it's the same speed as a Yasuo E or a bit faster. Using vault close range as Quinn slightly knocks back the enemy and lowers the overall animation time as well so it's pretty alright and is not that slow. You're just thinking about one scenario.

Also you asked about how Quinn kills a isolated target, you got many options. Quinn goes in with Valor first, evaluates the situation "can ya dive in as Valor or do you gotta go back to Quinn". If Valor you just dive in and kill them, or bring them low enough so that you can execute with sky strike and start flying out if you even need to fly out (you should be killing the enemy damage dealers). You play like you would an assassin when looking to assassinate.

Also you haven't defended your points at all. When I refuted pretty much all of your seven points you just said "nonsense" and brought up other stuff.

midnight oil241 votes

Yeah, you're right about the stuff up here. My Kha'zix enjoyment went up a lot since the rework, and while I have to get back to playing him, he became one of my fave junglers.

ZapMyHeart1 votes

Dang...Karma's relaunch was so bad that she isn't even mentioned on here.

DeadUnborn1 votes

karma was a vgu, not a kit update only

Big Lincoln1 votes

nah, most class updates sucked

DeadUnborn1 votes

can you elaborate why?

Engelin1 votes

There are only two rework failures imo:

Chogath Ryze

Cho'Gath because stoneplate makes him impossible to balance, Ryze because his identity as a machine-gun mage will always either be broken or useless. At the moment, he is the latter, and I'm completely fine with that. He's fun as hell anyway.

The only rework I complain about regularly is Rengar because he's no fun anymore.

DeadUnborn1 votes

Cho I think is fine. He needs a full vgu for sure but I think his current problems can be easily fixed with number tuning. Ryze I think the problem is that his power distribution accross his kit is not well balanced because of how powerfull his ult can be...potentially (i.e skill gap and cordinated team vs regular people). He is not in a great place for sure, but I think changing the ult and or/ reliability of W would fix that

Rengar and LB failed because there is no way to balance them in their current state still, either they blow people up with no counter play or they are crap

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