"Darius is not reasonable" Is the boards seriously that stupid to upvote such a thread?

SquashCannon··106 votes·7,574 views

"He counters every melee champion in the game"

hahahahaha you clearly have not played darius into a half decent riven or Jax. This shit ought to get every legitimate darius player annoyed. Darius has NEVER countered every single melee champion since his juggernaut rework. The only champions he can reliably counter as a class are immobile tanks, and even then the early game noxian might nerfs did quite the job of preventing him from bullying them.

"He has so much slows"

Yes, it's called sticking power, and there's nothing wrong with that because in order to stick he has to actually get to people in the first place anyway, so his juggernaut weakness is still very much intact. Also, his W slow doesnt do shit against mobility spells, and his apprehend is quite dodgeable now that it was modernized to apply once the animation time completed.

"He's so tanky"

He has no mobility, he's a damage carry that has to be in the middle of a teamfight, what do you expect?

"Well he's good right now so who are you to say I'm wrong?"

He's not BAD per se, but he ain't good.

http://na.op.gg/champion/darius/statistics/top

He has a sub 50% win rate for the first time in months, and that has been accompanied by a steady decline in BOTH play rate and win rate. That means that even as darius players shrink and those left are the more experienced and willing to stay darius mains still play him, they still are struggling more than before to make darius work.

This is exactly why the upper elo tiers despise lower elo players. I used to believe in the whole "well game balance has nothing to do with how good you are, it's just game knowledge" To an extent that's true, but I think there's something to be had about being in high elo. They have a better perspective on balance most of the time than low elo players, and it's evidenced by the amount of shitposting and complaining that low elo players do about things that aren't even an issue anymore.

EDIT

I don't ever remember referring to myself as high elo. Sure my main is high platinum which riot considers high elo, but I personally don't really consider high elo. But I notice that with darius in particular, this is almost strictly higher vs lower elo. Higher elo people almost never complain about darius, and lower elo people just can't shut up about him and would rather him at a 10% win rate if they had their way, and it's LUDICROUS that riot actually gives them the light of day.

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=tychusfindlay919

192 Comments

rtbf22165141227 votes

{quoted}

This is exactly why the upper elo tiers despise lower elo players. I used to believe in the whole "well game balance has nothing to do with how good you are...

But it is true. Some people who coach higher ranked players are actually lower ranked players. This is because they experiment with builds, different champions, and etc. This also means they are more aware of things than higher ranked players on certain things such as balance. Actually, one could argue higher ranked players are more likely to say "OP, NERF" because they are usually focused on 1-3 champions only vs 50+.

This is why, in regards to balance (maybe only balance), your rank may mean jack shit depending on the champion being discussed.

HateDaddy14 votes

{quoted}

But it is true. Some people who coach higher ranked players are actually lower ranked players. This is because they experiment with builds, different champions, and etc. This also means they are more aware of things than higher ranked players on certain things such as balance. Actually, one could argue higher ranked players are more likely to say "OP, NERF" because they are usually focused on 1-3 champions only vs 50+.

This is why, in regards to balance (maybe only balance), your rank may mean jack shit depending on the champion being discussed.

I vehemently disagree with this statement. Low elo players do not see champions being played at their most optimal potential. This means that certain champions will appear to have less weaknesses than they actually do, thus they become pubstompers. Many of the coaches who are "lower rank" are still plat/diamond and have a decent feel for the game and legitimately invest their entire lives into studying league of legends, spending less time actually playing or concerning themselves with their rank. When I see a silver player with 3k games played in silver the last two seasons, I can safely say they don't understand shit about this game because game knowledge alone can get you to low diamond.

I don't like to pick on low elo players and I believe every player has a right to express themselves and speak as equals. The moment that stops becoming true is when it becomes anecdotal and when it becomes anecdotal, the high elo player is always going to be right excluding severe biases.

Low elo players don't like hearing this but it's true. After all, there is a reason that you are low elo and it's not your teammates.

rtbf2216514121 votes

{quoted}

I vehemently disagree with this statement. Low elo players do not see champions being played at their most optimal potential.

You are suggesting the minority in league has a huge selection of champions that are used almost every single day by a huge amount of players?

Please.

There is a reason ranked shouldn't be as divided as it is now when 70%+ is in Bronze and Silver. This is one reason. Another reason is auto-fill, but some of the higher ranks rather play the victim than suck up to logic.

You can't argue about balance when only one-seven people play one specific champion in high elo (example). Can you be correct? Yes. However, it's apt to be fallacious since in that is how it appear in it's nature. Not to mention some people who are really good at this game may not even be ranked, which is another reason rank means jack shit to me. You can see this in multiple sports. Just because someone quit major league football doesn't mean they suck at football mate.

When I look up builds, I see mostly the same build over and over again.

You cant talk about balance if you don't experiment with counter building.

There is a plat or diamond player that coached people in either masters, challenger, and/or LCS. Denying this is like denying an elephant in the room.

Application does not equate to knowledge. Otherwise, life would be easier.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

You are suggesting the minority in league has a huge selection of champions that are used almost every single day by a huge amount of players?

Please.

There is a reason ranked shouldn't be as divided as it is now when 70%+ is in Bronze and Silver. This is one reason. Another reason is auto-fill, but some of the higher ranks rather play the victim than suck up to logic.

You can't argue about balance when only one-seven people play one specific champion in high elo (example). Can you be correct? Yes. However, it's apt to be fallacious since in that is how it appear in it's nature. Not to mention some people who are really good at this game may not even be ranked, which is another reason rank means jack shit to me. You can see this in multiple sports. Just because someone quit major league football doesn't mean they suck at football mate.

When I look up builds, I see mostly the same build over and over again.

You cant talk about balance if you don't experiment with counter building.

There is a plat or diamond player that coached people in either masters, challenger, and/or LCS. Denying this is like denying an elephant in the room.

Application does not equate to knowledge. Otherwise, life would be easier.

You act as if counterbuilding is the pinnacle of league strategy when it's not nearly as important as you think. Moreover, you're assuming what's built on average somehow represents unique situations where counterbuilding is required when it doesn't. And I'm not sure why you think high elo players only play one champion or meta champions only. Yes, meta picks are more common (because this is where the meta is defined) but everything gets played all the same.

Plat/diamond is also significantly better than gold and below. Also, these coaches dedicate their entire lives to coaching and likely have experience as analysts or coaches in other games/sports. The average league player, gold or below, does not commit this time to League. You're comparing the two as if they're similar when in reality, they couldn't be more different.

Your entire argue is laughable. I can sum it up as you being mad people don't take low elo seriously, therefore rank means nothing to you and that somehow makes higher elo players less knowledgeable. There are exceptions but that's exactly what they are: exceptions, not the rule. You want the exceptions to be the rule but sorry thats not how life works.

Anhartamin14 votes

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Ahristocats23 votes

{quoted}

Darius is a stat check champion

stopped reading there

and i can't believe this got upvotes

BabyNaix6 votes

It's actually true. No other champion has as high of base stats and stat growth as darius. Except maybe Trynd in some areas

Ahristocats12 votes

that's not stat-checking, and you might look at skarner's base stats, and xin

stat checking means that the dude buys items and proced to only kill you via the stats of the items without doing anything else

yi is stat checking, he only right click and cannot fail to do anything, half of darius kit is gone if his enemy dodges his Q and E

Botifier4 votes

Your clearly not playing full attack speed Darius with ghost kappa

Atanchan3 votes

pls buff dario rito he needs crit scaling on his ult so ie pd can super rock someone

Anhartamin4 votes

[deleted]

WhatAGeinius19 votes

IF he gets 5 stacks of bleed on a single champion. He doesn't just get it unconditionally. You evidently don't understand what stat-checking is. Half of Darius' kit is dodgeable and if you avoid his abilities he is significantly more vulnerable and has a much harder time actually getting 5 stacks of bleed.

Stat-checking would be someone like Xin or Yi or Garen that don't have any avoidable damage and that have a gameplay pattern that boils down to "if I have more stats than you, I win, if I don't, I can't do anything."

Ahristocats8 votes

HE NEEDS 5 STACKS YOU ****

typical low elo players not understanding what's stat checking

just DONT TALK ANYMORE

it would be good for everyone

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

MagikarpIsBoss8 votes

Talking to someone about having petty life choices.

Tells them to kys

k

General Esdeath 14 votes

"BUT HOW CAN I FIGHT HIM HE GETS TRUE DAMAGE AFTER I SKILLFULLY STAND STILL AND LET HIM HIT ME WITH EVERYTHING!"

Jet Sett8 votes

Stormraider's, Phage passive, Ghost, E, Deadman's, etc. It isn't hard to hit anything below an ADC's range on Darius because of all the tool's he has and has access to.

Ahristocats4 votes

almost everything darius can get in range to has the potential to destroy him

try to get in range of syndra i'll laugh

Jet Sett7 votes

"Below an ADC's range" Syndra generally has MORE range than an ADC. Of course he can still get in range if she's not with another champion using any combination of the above methods.

BabyNaix11 votes

If you try to trade with him he will out damage you. Based on what you are saying, you would never trade as a melee champion

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

hum... don't u see his irony ??

And he won't always outrade you, unless as he said u stay still and let darius stack his passive.

Jet Sett7 votes

Once Darius gets E he can't get outtraded by melee champs that don't already beat him to begin with. You don't have to stand still when he can pull you and slow you.

BabyNaix12 votes

He is very strong tbh. He has good sustain which makes it impossible to burst him. He has a bleed that stacks so it's impossible to fight him in prolonged fights. He has one of the highest base stats so short trades are not favorable or anyone else. Even champions that "counter" him are skill match ups. For example if you mess us the stun on jax or fiora or irelia you lose the trade or is killed. He can out sustain early game bullies like pantheon or renecton. He beats pretty much all melee champions played by equally skilled players.

RealČernochHours4 votes

For example if you mess us the stun on jax or fiora or irelia you lose the trade or is killed.

You are literally complaining about loosing if you fuck it up. And Darius barely beats Fiora in lane and gets completely outscaled by her.

He can out sustain early game bullies like pantheon or renecton. He beats pretty much all melee champions played by equally skilled players.

Because any Pantheon will let you get closer than his 600 range on q or Renekton won't just dash in if you try to Q him.

Senpai Negro9 votes

It's like how every single thread or post I make about balancing gets downvoted to shit because 80% of forums is used by Gold or below players and automatically my words are invalid because I have "Riven" in my name. Even though I'm Diamond....

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

... And thicc.

More seriously, it's mostly bias against these champs that will ensure they will never listen to reason.

Big Lincoln3 votes

these threads are all part of my plan to condition boards to upvote Darius buff threads

Créam9 votes

Mfw you think fervor is what keeping darius up yet stormraider surge is just as powerful on him as well

-D4 Darius Main

Baron Barian8 votes

Let me guess. Darius main, right?

SquashCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMUkhFhF,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2017-07-03T20:12:01.289+0000)

Let me guess. Darius main, right?

Damn you got me there. Yeah, Tychusfindlay919 most games played are on darius by far.

Verarticus5 votes

I'm sorry, JAX vs Darius? Hardly. Jax has a weak as shit early laning, and that's literally where Darius shines.

Bârd2 votes

Darius can't stack his passive on Jax.

If he goes for a Q, Jax Q's onto his face, dodging the blade.

After that, Jax uses E, making subsequent auto attacks and W's from Darius worthless.

Golden Tager X4 votes

Sorry mate, Jax main here to tell you that just isn't as true as people think.

Early game (especially levels 1-3) Jax E makes him auto win trades. Darius can only hope to beat a Jax after he gets a tabi and at least a cloth armor. Otherwise Jax can just get on him and make getting 5 stacks an impossibility due to his e and a q max on jax allowing him to stay too close to be hit with the blade.

When it comes to Jax early game as long as his E is up you don't fight him at all or else you lose (unless you are malphite) simply because you still have a large portion of your damage come from autos as long as you aren't cass or ryze or something along those lines.

Big Lincoln4 votes

Darius winrate is only propped up by Fervor being so good. It "makes up" for the passive nerf from a while back. Once that's gone with the rune update I expect him to be doing a lot less damage.

All the "bug fixes" and small nerfs added up to a champion who's already seeing the meta turn against him

SquashCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMUkhFhF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-07-03T18:14:12.931+0000)

Darius winrate is only propped up by Fervor being so good. It "makes up" for the passive nerf from a while back. Once that's gone with the rune update I expect him to be doing a lot less damage.

All the "bug fixes" and small nerfs added up to a champion who's already seeing the meta turn against him

Yeah, it's about time, even the king of the juggernauts isn't really doing all that hot. At least garen might not absolutely suck balls with his upcoming buffs and may be somewhat playable even beyond platinum.

I just think it's amazing that a lot of people focus on the high vs low elo comment and then point at me even though I've been pretty open about this account being a smurf LOL.

Big Lincoln1 votes

im fine with other juggs getting to be on top for a while, dariuss had the #1 for 2 years

i just hope that if he does end up being weak he won't get ignored, it was terrible for cho/voli/etc it'd be terrible for dar.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMUkhFhF,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2017-07-04T00:35:51.102+0000)

im fine with other juggs getting to be on top for a while, dariuss had the #1 for 2 years

i just hope that if he does end up being weak he won't get ignored, it was terrible for cho/voli/etc it'd be terrible for dar.

While I think being viable played a huge role, honestly, darius is an incredibly fun champion with a very likeable character. He's also one of the major characters in regards to the lore as far as most people are concerned. I think all of that culminates in why he's a popular champion on top of, of course, being viable.

I mean, I do very much enjoy nasus and illaoi, so I wouldn't mind other juggernauts getting some love. Nasus in particular has just been in a horrible spot for quite some time now.

Big Lincoln1 votes

tru nasus needs buffs

E max builds are ruining the dream of stack god buffs though

SquashCannon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMUkhFhF,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T00:39:38.855+0000)

tru nasus needs buffs

E max builds are ruining the dream of stack god buffs though

That's why you gotta pull off some old school stuff.

Remember how old sion's stacking actually scaled with level?

I was in a conversation with good guy critmaster garen and one of the ideas I tossed around was nasus Q scaling as such:

level 1 = 1 stack level 2 = 2 stack level 3 = 3 stack level 4 = 4 stack level 5 = 5 stack

It slightly nerfs early game q stacking which doesnt matter since early game is the time where q max nasus stacks the least. It's an overall buff though since nasus usually is getting two cdr items and he maxes Q first at this time, so then he starts stacking big time. If necessary, remove double stack on large minions and champs, it'd still be a buff in spite of that. This also indirectly nerfs E max which waits on maxing Q for a while, so E max nasus truly loses out on a lot of stacks.

The Cane Master3 votes

By the way, Nasus is the model that Riot said other Juggernauts are supposed to follow. Now if we take a look at Darius , he has way more damage (until 40th minute into the game and even then if he gets two ultimates in a teamfight he already did more than Nasus with all his stacks )), way better passive, way more reliable armor penetration (people have to actually stand in the stupid Nasus circle for it to have an effect) while item 3071 keeps their armor shred for at least 6 seconds no matter what, and he actually has an AOE PULL. Now this is some fucked up shit, why the fuck would any Juggernaut have a hard CC, especially a non ultimate ability? Because Darius is a go to melee top laner that all kids wanna play and dunk on people, you don't even need to have skill, just point-and-click for up to 1000 TRUE damage late game with resets. To manifest how much Darius breaks what Riot envisioned for Juggernauts (and from the start set Nasus as a model), Darius has a whooping 55% win ratio against Nasus , while it was 58% for a looong time until a month ago when item 3071 was nerfed. Futhermore, he has the 4th highest pick rate in top lane (platinum+), which already makes you think twice before denying that Darius is BY FAR the best Juggernaut.

Meep Man2 votes

I don't think they meant THAT similar dude. We don't need a bunch of slightly altered Nasus' roaming the Rift. AND, of course Darius beats Nasus. While Nasus early game isn't AS BAD as some people say, it is still pathetic when compared to most other Juggernauts. Of course the lane bully Juggernaut known as Darius is going to perform well against him. People pick Darius a ton also because he is fun to play. Most of the other Juggernauts have some minigame or strange theme about them, while Darius is the most generic and offers by far the most satisfying damage. Dunking an unsuspecting squishy never felt better!

Also why does Darius' win rate against Nasus even matter as far as him breaking what Riot envisioned? Are you to imply that Nasus, since he is "Juggernaut model", should have the highest win rate against other Juggernauts?

The Cane Master2 votes

When they were visiting Juggernauts as a class rework, it was stated by Riot that Nasus is a prototype that all Juggernauts are to follow. That means no kill pressure in the laning phase, ok-ish mid game, the strongest late game out of any (sub)class, no hard CC khm-Darius -khm, sustain over pure tankiness, only single target slows are ok etc. That being said, when something is a prototype, there shouldn't be an immediate class competitor that straight up beats him no matter what. Since Nasus 's kit doesn't allow for any outplay potential, it means that either his tankiness is low, or Darius ' damage is too damn high. And no one will agree that Nasus is not tanky enough.

Big Lincoln3 votes

nobody in their right mind would want juggernauts to emulate a design as shitty and archaic as nasus, a champ who can't do anything by himself but splitpush and hope his team can carry him for 20 minutes

the similarity starts with "immobile and melee" and it should end there. nasus was the baseline for juggernaut design; he is NOT the standard

The Cane Master2 votes

the similarity starts with "immobile and melee" and it should end there. nasus was the baseline for juggernaut design; he is NOT the standard

He is not the standard because Riot deviated from the prototype they said they would use Nasus for so they outdid the other Juggernauts.

nobody in their right mind would want juggernauts to emulate a design as shitty and archaic as nasus, a champ who can't do anything by himself but splitpush and hope his team can carry him for 20 minutes

Riot did.

Big Lincoln3 votes

they said he's the prototype. Never that he was the standard

in terms of design Darius is a much better standard post-rework. and it's clear that he IS the standard because both of the juggernauts released after that update emulate some of his designs

Illaoi Yorick both have delayed attacks and a condition they have to fulfill in a fight or before it that makes them stronger in a fight. Illaoi needs to set up tentacles+land E and R, Yorick his ghouls, Darius has to stack passive.

Nasus was the prototype for juggernauts but he plays completely differently from the rest of them, especially the 'modern' ones

The Cane Master1 votes

I have typed out a really long reply but somehow my browser flashed and the text was gone. Hence I'll answer shortly now:

in terms of design Darius is a much better standard post-rework. and it's clear that he IS the standard because both of the juggernauts released after that update emulate some of his designs

Then why is Nasus untouched after being released in 2009 (yes, that was 8 years ago)? It is because in practice Riot ditched their statements about basing Juggernaut subclass on Nasus 's model, but they still use the same excuse when asked about the missing Nasus rework.

Nasus was the prototype for juggernauts but he plays completely differently from the rest of them, especially the 'modern' ones.

Yeah, he ''plays'' differently with win rates and pick rates as well.

Big Lincoln3 votes

never said nasus didn't need help, in fact I made a thread about modernizing him the other day, you can see it in my discussion history

he's not the only one doing poorly, many of the older juggernauts simply got power-creeped out of the game. this is why we saw such huge buffs to singed, udyr, cho and garen; because they're old champions and they needed new passives and changes to spells, because they need more than just number buffs

i'd like it to be a priority to finish the job with nasus, mundo and voli so they can be meta and healthy again, but we can't really force that so we'll have to be patient

Rito Staff2 votes

Darius pull pulls you from the vacuum of air it creates in front of it though, never been ok with it :P

AlienPrimate1 votes

I would like to change every "melee" to every "tank." There isn't a single tank who come close to standing a chance of even last hitting minions against him. Playing a tank against Darius is likely worse than playing full support Soraka against Darius. Tanks don't deal enough damage to effectively trade against him, they have big hitboxes making it pretty much impossible to dodge his Q, Darius gets 5 stacks on them every single fight for bonus AD, he has free armor pen so building armor doesn't help as much as it should, black cleaver stacking on his passive shreds even more of the already penetrated armor, and to top it all off, his ult hits for like 300 true damage at level 6 which is 1/3 of the health of most tanks at that point.

Bârd1 votes

DrMundo Galio Gnar Gragas JarvanIV Kled Maokai Trundle Volibear TahmKench Nasus Renekton

all of these champions either have spammable ranged spells they can use to nab CS with ease, or they can fight Darius.

Alistar is fun; you can't really fight him reliably, but you have lots of disengage, so he can't stay on you.

Tanks have one distinct advantage over Darius; they don't need to win lane. Darius needs to be ahead to be relevant late game, but a Maokai certainly doesn't. Even if you fall behind in farm, you will be more useful than Darius so long as you don't let him kill you for free.

(I'm aware that some of these are technically juggernauts/fighters, but it's not like you'd complain if someone picked them as your teams tank.)

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