For those who think darius nerf is a love tap, here's evidence showing why it isn't

SquashCannon··51 votes·4,899 views

https://i.imgur.com/90cWbmQ.png

It's actually huge. You have to take into account that before entering noxian might, Darius's damage is still scary but not particularly threatening at all for a low-utility slug. Darius is a champion known for doing his best to try and prolong a fight to noxian might, when he can finally pop off.

These "loves taps" as some in the community call it are actually hitting his highest moments in stages of the game that really matter to darius the most (early, mid, and the transition from mid to late, before late game where he starts to fall off to mediocre).

If you look at the graph, noxian might doesn't come back online to live values until level 14 in the game, where darius soon begins to fall off when ADCs build LW.

What does this mean?

Darius has 5 AD scalings. His passive, his Q, his W, his R, and his auto attacks (duh). Nerfing his noxian might early indirectly affects almost his entire kit when he finally is able to achieve noxian might on an enemy champion for the early and mid game.

This nerf is huge, and personally I believe it is unwarranted. No one in the darius main community minds the Q hilt nerfs, because that provides the "hug him" counterplay avenue with a little more reward and keeps darius's reward pristine if he lands the outer edge. However, the passive nerf is a straight up nerf to darius in general, and as the graph shows, it actually does hit harder than a lot of people realize. His five stack dunk will be weaker, his Qs, his Ws, his auto attacks, and his E armor pen won't mean as much as it used to with lesser AD.

Darius hasn't received a direct nerf or buff since the later end of season 5. It's obvious to any rational human being that the meta shift caused by jungle changes and ESPECIALLY the removal of SoTA for courage of the colossus is what caused darius to climb where he is now. After the first round of Colossus nerfs, darius is sitting at around a 52% win rate with a DOWNWARD TRAJECTORY.

Darius's most common keystone is CoC, and it's also his highest win rate keystone. Courage has some pretty big nerfs on the PBE, admittedly almost on the extreme side according to Riot's own SmashGizmo who said, "Uh, so Courage of the Colossus changes that show up on PBE soon might look a little harsh at first, starting at the extreme end here i think." Darius is about to get nerfed on two fronts, and I don't think that's right. We should wait to see after Courage gets nerfed again to see where darius will land.

KEEP IN MIND

Before courage was introduced, darius sat at LITERALLY A NEAR PERFECT 50% WIN RATE WITH THE SAME EXACT KIT AND NUMBERS HE HAS RIGHT NOW. When Courage gets toned down to the point where darius can't really abuse it anymore (it'll still be a good keystone, just not so oppressive, and darius can take other keystones when he doesn't feel the need to go with CoC), he'll most likely revert back to where he was before this whole mess happened, a near perfect 50% win rate.

Before CoC most people on these boards praised Darius's design for being well rounded with clear strengths and weaknesses, a poster child for the juggernaut update compared to messes like mordekaiser and Skarner.

I ask that Riot think through what they're about to do. I would advise waiting to see how CoC nerfs would affect darius.

91 Comments

Quepha13 votes

It's funny how often people underestimate early-game-only nerfs. The loss of gold from getting fewer kills and needing to play more passively in the early game cascades down for the rest of the game and only really becomes irrelevant at like the 40 minute mark when everyone is hitting full build and gold becomes irrelevant (and even then it's a big question of if that early game strength would have stopped the game from going on for this long).

sanaru022 votes

As a darius with about 800k on the champion, this. He is already incredibly reliant on snowballing the laning phase or he inherently risks being borderline useless when behind. He is immobile and people for the most part are great at playing around his hemorrhage and lack of mobility. Chain stunning still happens and so many champs aren't even phased by his passive. Scion, yorrik, poppy, naut, tahm, swain, zac. The list goes on of people who can already build tank, do almost equal damage -- if not more, and not die to you having 5 stacks on them. Nerfing his overall ad on hit kit isn't the way to go.

Other options: Nerf w cooldown for early cheese. Nerf collosus (check) Nerf ghost (check) Continue to make high mobility champs (check) Nerf q inner dmg to basically zero (check) Increase mana costs to make each combo that much more important

Continue to raise his skill ceiling til his winrate drops, but don't nerf what makes Darius Darius.

Eh just my 2 cents, and I respect what a lot of you guys are supporting about the nerfs. I just want the whole picture to be portrayed.

Akali is SO HOT10 votes

It's supposed to be a nerf. The amount of AD he gets at all for getting 5 stacks is just dumb tbh. He already bullies almost everyone really hard with his kit to begin with, but getting an extra 40 AD at level 1 is just dumb. His kit already gives him a free ride past laning phase and the bonus AD on top of that just makes it that much easier. Not to mention, at level 18 he gets 5 BF Swords for attacking someone 5 times. All he needs is cleaver for damage and then he can go full tank and still do the damage of a carry with all of the AD he gets.

SquashCannon10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwulVksg,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2017-01-12T15:24:38.801+0000)

It's supposed to be a nerf. The amount of AD he gets at all for getting 5 stacks is just dumb tbh. He already bullies almost everyone really hard with his kit to begin with, but getting an extra 40 AD at level 1 is just dumb. His kit already gives him a free ride past laning phase and the bonus AD on top of that just makes it that much easier. Not to mention, at level 18 he gets 5 BF Swords for attacking someone 5 times. All he needs is cleaver for damage and then he can go full tank and still do the damage of a carry with all of the AD he gets.

It hasnt been dumb for over a year, now all of a sudden everyone wants to complain? Thats a load of bullshit.

Akali is SO HOT8 votes

It has been dumb ever since he was released. Before he wasn't op enough to justify nerfing it, but shifts in the game have resulted in him being overpowered and that passive is definitely the first thing that should be nerfed.

SquashCannon5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwulVksg,comment-id=000e00000001,timestamp=2017-01-12T16:44:13.216+0000)

It has been dumb ever since he was released. Before he wasn't op enough to justify nerfing it, but shifts in the game have resulted in him being overpowered and that passive is definitely the first thing that should be nerfed.

Oh right you mean shifts like the introduction of courage of the colossus? That same keystone that is about to rightfully get nerfed again?

It isn't dumb, riot's potential response to this mess is dumb.

Zerenza1 votes

ON champion.gg Darius has the highest top Performance stat...and has for 3 patches.

DHBGrimReaper1 votes

{quoted}

ON champion.gg Darius has the highest top Performance stat...and has for 3 patches.

Champion.gg does not update frequently enough to be up-to date.

Cowseed1 votes

http://imgur.com/b2qtPpO.png

Sorry but that's just how this community works.

Poppy Considered trash for quite a while and I even got called a troll for picking her. CoC rolls around and now she's unkillable and deals too much damage. Don't even feel like playing her because people will assume me to be some meta-slave and broken champ picker.

Takazaki1 votes

Yasuo i know your pain

Darth StepVader7 votes

One slow juggernaut is getting hard nerfs, despite the fact that he has strong counterplay throughout the game. I'm not saying he wasn't strong the past 2 patches but, they really didn't even take it slow in his case. Meanwhile, another guy who is broken for the past year gets a foolish early game E damage nerf: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_PxxIILv-ok/hqdefault.jpg

It's not even the assassin Yasuo build that annoys me. It's the "i cannot die, i cannot be caught, i can split and teamfight like a god, i will outduel you any day of the week and if by any chance i missplay like the idiot i am and all else fails, i can still dash the fuck out" build that is most infuriating item 3046 item 3031 item 3022 item 3047 item 3072 item 3026 .

Kilanost5 votes

You realize master tier darius win rate is at 60% yes?

SquashCannon10 votes

{quoted}

You realize master tier darius win rate is at 60% yes?

You realize second CoC nerf isnt online yet and CoC is darius's most common and highest win rate keystone?

CoC, is getting nerfed.

Read the thread again. Before CoC existed, darius was at a perfect 50% win rate. CoC, is getting its second round of revisions, nerfing darius on top may be extra, especially a huge nerf to his passive like this.

Kilanost2 votes

Highly doubtful that will do much. However, the changes ARE on pbe and not live so they get two weeks of data to decide whether or not it goes live.

Personally, I think and hope they will.

Troll for Trump4 votes

Highly doubtful that will do much.

No, the Cotc change is tentative, but if it hits live like that, it will hurt a lot of things.

Poppy will probably be really sht if that happens.

Kilanost1 votes

Poppy will never be shit as long as the keep that 14% max Heath on her q. That's her biggest strength. CoC just helps her very early. She'll still trade well I think.

Spice POWAH1 votes

I thought poppy's strength was the hilariously absurd amounts of armor and MR she can get with her W.

LeonLye4 votes

You're talking as if Darius is the only champion with CoC. Every champion who relies on CoC is getting equally nerfed. Their win rate shot up when CoC was released, then is gradually decreasing as CoC gets repeatedly nerfed.

Blackstone019 votes

He's saying that Darius is getting double nerfed with it, not that he's the only user.

SquashCannon2 votes

{quoted}

He's saying that Darius is getting double nerfed with it, not that he's the only user.

Thank you

Doganaws1 votes

link plz or lie

Ahristocats3 votes

master tier has a low sample, Sona has like 69% win rate but you never cross someone playing Sona in master at least not Support

dominusx5 votes

taking master win rates when the average master player has an overall of 55+ win rate and almost always 60+ on their mains. I got 100% win rate with trynda in d3 i guess he is broken. Ofc one tricks gonna have high winrates in elo such as master.

Kilanost1 votes

There is some merit in what you're saying except there are enough games on Darius to make it a more reliable figures than the 70% karthus win rate for example.

BlueBilberry1 votes

{quoted}

You realize master tier darius win rate is at 60% yes?

You bring up a good point - but it's not going to stop Darius fanatics from down-voting you - unfortunately. :|

DHBGrimReaper1 votes

{quoted}

You bring up a good point - but it's not going to stop Darius fanatics from down-voting you - unfortunately. :|

Are you retarded? Master tier is a very small sample..

Dormidon5 votes

But don't forget one fact, all Darius guys would prefer to run Fervor of Battle after CotC nerf. Fully stacked FoB gives 40 bonus damage at lvl 11 which compensate well his passive nerf. It takes only 4 hits to stack this thing. It lasts 6 seconds which is longer than Noxian Might Duration. So actually you'll have it fully stacked at the same moment as you stack passive. 14 lvl? 120 passive + 50 BC + 50 FoB is pretty sweet

Luner Hunter2 votes

except for rito has stated they don't want a champion to have to build one way or take one set of runes/masteries to be relevant. So what you're saying is just that and counter to rito's own stated philosophy, but that's not saying much since rito doesn't stick with their own philosophy very well anyways.

SquashCannon6 votes

{quoted}

But don't forget one fact, all Darius guys would prefer to run Fervor of Battle after CotC nerf. Fully stacked FoB gives 40 bonus damage at lvl 11 which compensate well his passive nerf. It takes only 4 hits to stack this thing. It lasts 6 seconds which is longer than Noxian Might Duration. So actually you'll have it fully stacked at the same moment as you stack passive. 14 lvl? 120 passive + 50 BC + 50 FoB is pretty sweet

Which is irrelevant because any champion can get full benefit from fervor, noxian might is unique to darius, and it's about to wrongly get nerfed.

dominusx5 votes

guess fervor is the go to mastery unless you can get storm procs fast from now on. But oh well we got Oriana pressing Q-W and oneshoting squishies every 6seconds guess Darius is more broken. Dont start me on Victor too. but they are mages..mages and adcs dont get nerfed unless the hit 55% overall winrate but when a TANK BUSTER gets a higher winrate in a TANK meta while there is a keystone available that is BROKEN we have to nerf said tank buster.

Spice POWAH1 votes

Darius could proc storm before, he probably can still proc it easily.

dominusx1 votes

never said otherwhise just said Fervor will be better because it will make passive nerfs feel less stupid

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

Nerf the Q blade so he's not as oppressive against those who can't dodge it, so they actually have a choice between taking some bad damage and giving Darius a heal or going in/burning a dash to escape.

The passive should be just as powerful though, it's what makes Darius Darius.

Troll for Trump1 votes

YOu're not wrong. He punishes simple champs super hard, and gets punished by mobility really hard too.

He's still binary, but not in power curve. Just in his kit

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

YOu're not wrong. He punishes simple champs super hard, and gets punished by mobility really hard too.

He's still binary, but not in power curve. Just in his kit

I know, I've said that many times. But it's not 'simple champs', it's those with big models who can't dodge his Q blade just by walking around.

DunkinNoobs4 votes

Darius winrate has started going up and up since people figured out how strong Flash+Ghost is and his winrate is only going to raise further as more and more people switch to that setup. Riot is right to nerf him now rather than waiting for him to become permaban and then have to nerf him even harder.

Ahristocats5 votes

ghost is getting nerfed

sanaru021 votes

{quoted}

Darius winrate has started going up and up since people figured out how strong Flash+Ghost is and his winrate is only going to raise further as more and more people switch to that setup. Riot is right to nerf him now rather than waiting for him to become permaban and then have to nerf him even harder.

Ghost and courage are both being nerfed. Seems silly to say that now.

Verarticus3 votes

Isn't the whole point of a nerf to weaken a champ? Every Darius main is happy with the Q nerfs because it doesn't actually matter that much. "Oh. I don't hit as much with my Q when they're next to me? Oh well, they're now in my range and thus not kiting me and an easy kill now 9 times outa 10." That doesn't make him weaker, that just gives the illusion that melee can duel him.

Something had to go, he can't be allowed to have auto trade wins, good sustain, and good damage all while building a cleaver then straight tank.

SquashCannon3 votes

{quoted}

Isn't the whole point of a nerf to weaken a champ? Every Darius main is happy with the Q nerfs because it doesn't actually matter that much. "Oh. I don't hit as much with my Q when they're next to me? Oh well, they're now in my range and thus not kiting me and an easy kill now 9 times outa 10." That doesn't make him weaker, that just gives the illusion that melee can duel him.

Something had to go, he can't be allowed to have auto trade wins, good sustain, and good damage all while building a cleaver then straight tank.

Thats wrong, darius mains didnt mind the q nerf because it reinforced a counterplay option. The passive nerf is just a nerf to his stats.

One reinforces darius's intended weakness while keeping his intended strength and another just makes him outright weaker in every scenario possible when he plays right to get his intended strength.

Verarticus1 votes

{quoted}

Thats wrong, darius mains didnt mind the q nerf because it reinforced a counterplay option. The passive nerf is just a nerf to his stats.

One reinforces darius's intended weakness while keeping his intended strength and another just makes him outright weaker in every scenario possible when he plays right to get his intended strength.

Except, again like I said, Darius EXCELS at close range duels so it doesn't change much when people get into a duel since he doesn't really want to use his Q at point blank range anyway. (also once you get at least a phage it's trivially easy to juke into the outer range of your Q then go back in during a duel)

And also no. That's not what that second nerf looks like to me. It only nerfs his early to mid game, when his strength is really the problem. His late game is the same strength and only gets the Q "nerf".

Again, the point is to weaken him. Not reinforce a false idea.

SquashCannon4 votes

{quoted}

Except, again like I said, Darius EXCELS at close range duels so it doesn't change much when people get into a duel since he doesn't really want to use his Q at point blank range anyway. (also once you get at least a phage it's trivially easy to juke into the outer range of your Q then go back in during a duel)

And also no. That's not what that second nerf looks like to me. It only nerfs his early to mid game, when his strength is really the problem. His late game is the same strength and only gets the Q "nerf".

Again, the point is to weaken him. Not reinforce a false idea.

"It only nerfs his early and mid"

Yeah because when I pick darius I'm looking to scale into a vayne level hypercarry...

Q is to weaken him conditionally (the condition being missing his outer q and only grtting inner q), passive nerf is just a nerf to everything during his max potential.

Verarticus1 votes

{quoted}

"It only nerfs his early and mid"

Yeah because when I pick darius I'm looking to scale into a vayne level hypercarry...

Q is to weaken him conditionally (the condition being missing his outer q and only grtting inner q), passive nerf is just a nerf to everything during his max potential.

Now you're just making ridiculous comparisons. You're losing some base damage in your early game, and at level 14 you're back to EXACTLY the same damage you were before. At no point did I say you're a scaling hyper carry. Don't compare two different champs that have nothing to do with each other.

The condition being you fuck up a Q you could have landed better, and you're "slightly" punished and you proceed to slow them bleed them of their health getting free extra AD while ignoring their armor and can then either smite them for true damage or just walk away and let the bleed win the trade that you could have done "better" on.

The missed full Q potential there didn't exactly fuck you up that much.

SquashCannon3 votes

{quoted}

Now you're just making ridiculous comparisons. You're losing some base damage in your early game, and at level 14 you're back to EXACTLY the same damage you were before. At no point did I say you're a scaling hyper carry. Don't compare two different champs that have nothing to do with each other.

The condition being you fuck up a Q you could have landed better, and you're "slightly" punished and you proceed to slow them bleed them of their health getting free extra AD while ignoring their armor and can then either smite them for true damage or just walk away and let the bleed win the trade that you could have done "better" on.

The missed full Q potential there didn't exactly fuck you up that much.

Right, and the early and mid is where darius shines the most. "It goes right back to EQUAL at level 14" at that point I'm falling off anyways...

Lord Desert1 votes

dude, "huge" has a rather different meaing then just mere 10Ad on his passiv lost... And you only get the bonus from your passiv after you got 5 stacks on a target. on whom you will already have used all your cds, except your ult... and 10 less Ad is just a joke :D If they had scrapped it to lets say to only 10 bonus ad at level 1, then i would classify it still only as a decent/normal nerf (you still need to have 5 stacks before anything changes).

So "a huge nerf" is rather over the top, specially considering his already HUGE Dmg and dps output and sustain. So dont you worry it really was just a lovetap at best :D

SquashCannon3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwulVksg,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2017-01-12T18:39:14.799+0000)

dude, "huge" has a rather different meaing then just mere 10Ad on his passiv lost... And you only get the bonus from your passiv after you got 5 stacks on a target. on whom you will already have used all your cds, except your ult... and 10 less Ad is just a joke :D If they had scrapped it to lets say to only 10 bonus ad at level 1, then i would classify it still only as a decent/normal nerf (you still need to have 5 stacks before anything changes).

So "a huge nerf" is rather over the top, specially considering his already HUGE Dmg and dps output and sustain. So dont you worry it really was just a lovetap at best :D

Darius doesnt have huge damage pre noxian might, he only does if you play a squishy.

Lord Desert1 votes

he has 50(+150%bonus ad) and 40 + 100% Ad dmg with low manacosts and a %missing heal and + 30 ad after 5 hits, at level 1!

but atleast you admit that this huge nerf is not so huge :D

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwulVksg,comment-id=001100000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T20:49:53.450+0000)

he has 50(+150%bonus ad) and 40 + 100% Ad dmg with low manacosts and a %missing heal and + 30 ad after 5 hits, at level 1!

but atleast you admit that this huge nerf is not so huge :D

Actually I don't admit that you silly troll. In any case, darius hasn't been changed since season 5, if he was considered balanced all throughout season 6 only to become broken right when CoC came out, I'd reckon that any logical person can find a correlation that is just a little too convincing with regards to whether or not darius broke darius or CoC broke darius.

Lord Desert1 votes

now you change the subject from the actual numbers and facts to "he was never changed so he was balanced" :D This, again, proves me that you admit that this nerf is indeed justified xD Darius is and was always strong, he is a lanebullyfor a reason. And i showed you that is was indeed only a lovetap and not a "from op/broken to trash" tier nerf.

just because something has a high winrate it doesnt mean its broken/op. But a drasticly higher winrate indicates that something might be to strong and should be looked at.

If you want to convince me that this was, indeed, a "huge" nerf like you claim, than explain me why a 10 bonus Ad loss, after using all your abilitys( except ult) makes a "huge" difference. Otherwise my logic has no fault, thus is the correct one. That is how thinking and working with numbers, facts and theory works.

SquashCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iwulVksg,comment-id=00110000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T21:41:37.514+0000)

now you change the subject from the actual numbers and facts to "he was never changed so he was balanced" :D This, again, proves me that you admit that this nerf is indeed justified xD Darius is and was always strong, he is a lanebullyfor a reason. And i showed you that is was indeed only a lovetap and not a "from op/broken to trash" tier nerf.

just because something has a high winrate it doesnt mean its broken/op. But a drasticly higher winrate indicates that something might be to strong and should be looked at.

If you want to convince me that this was, indeed, a "huge" nerf like you claim, than explain me why a 10 bonus Ad loss, after using all your abilitys( except ult) makes a "huge" difference. Otherwise my logic has no fault, thus is the correct one. That is how thinking and working with numbers, facts and theory works.

"That is how thinking and working... works."

Ignored

More from Gameplay

More by SquashCannon