It's time we tone down AD sustain across the boards

SquashCannon··50 votes·2,547 views

bork ---> Im fine with 12% provided passive goes down to 7% current hp, if not bork should be 10% life steal again

deaths dance --> 10% physical vamp

bloodthirster --> 15% lifesteal

red pot --> 10% physical vamp (this is a big one people forget when they say "you cant itemize over 30% lifesteal without taking away from building other items, THIS POT EXISTS TO ACTUALLY LET YOU DO THAT WITH A NORMAL CRIT OR AS BUILD)

rav hydra is the only item I currently feel is fine the way it is.

The amount at which ADCs and duelists are sustaining is actually ridiculous, and no, not every damage oriented champion has the luxury of itemizing grievous wounds.

Juggernauts are basically forbidden from legitimately trying to incorporate grievous in their builds. A good chunk of divers also cannot, any manaless mage can't build grievous, etc. And even with grievous wounds, the sustain is ridiculous when ADCs and duelists get damage items anyways.

Juggernauts especially get fucked so hard by sustain because they can't burst (with the exception of maybe noxian might Darius which is why he's the only decent juggernaut still alive) and rely on DPS and longer fights, which allows adcs to literally itemize them out of existence.

As I had noted in a previous thread of mine. DDance, Bork, red pot MF just fucking draintanked me when I put down my full combo on her as Garen with cleaver AND maw AND I took a snowball to get right in her face (it was ARAM). She never dropped below 50% hp because the lifesteal was actually ridiculously good.

83 Comments

Blackstone0120 votes

I personally don't understand why spell vamp was removed outside of gunblade's omniheal while life steal gets to be on multiple big ADC items.

woodvsmurph1 votes

item 3075 item 3145 (old one -turned into wota for spell vamp) item 3065 item 3151 Mordekaiser (old morde) - this was more of an abomination top than tank ekko was Literally 1v2 basically any toplaner and their double buff jungler lvl 6 and don't fall off till 5+ items with enemy building last whisper and even then still good.

Blackstone015 votes

Been playing since season 2, I recall all of about three Mages with spell vamp in core item slots, and they were bruiser mages (morde, vlad, swain) and never were they some god tier laners. While I understand they were balanced around spell vamp, and that riot didn't like the idea of mages healing off burst, we have ADCs increasingly pumping out self healing, with end game builds at a minimum (including elixir) reaching 27% life steal, usually higher. On a class that deals sustained dps.

iamthegoatofwar1 votes

wasn't spell vamp the thing on rumble too?

Elikain1 votes

You forgot Akali, who was intentionally kept weak early game until she could've gotten Gunblade. Vlad was in the same ballpark as her. These two champions were impossible to tune around spell vamp and spell vamp in general was just not a stat that could've been sustained for mages in the long run.

It might've been reworked as stealth did but i suppose Riot didn't have time for that and they removed problematic system that didn't have many uses to begin with. They might revisit it in the future for all we know.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

item 3075 item 3145 (old one -turned into wota for spell vamp) item 3065 item 3151 Mordekaiser (old morde) - this was more of an abomination top than tank ekko was Literally 1v2 basically any toplaner and their double buff jungler lvl 6 and don't fall off till 5+ items with enemy building last whisper and even then still good.

Which is funny because this never even caught on back in the day. He had to get Hextech revolver just to survive the lane.

woodvsmurph1 votes

Well sometimes you never know what other people come up with that's good and many are not willing to try crazy new builds or champs in odd roles. I mean I had morg sup a year before she became meta and op and I was wrecking people 2v3 with it, but then again, that was bronze or silver elo so whatever. I got naut top I think around the time everyone caught up with me and figured out he was a good support - so a few patches before they played him as a toplane staple. It's just really funny how people can assume low elo know nothing, yet some of these people can theory craft builds or champs in new roles before anyone in high elo and actually discover something that works. Not always, and not everything works (liss sup is a bad idea), but sometimes you end up being a genius.

Executioner

Morg and Naut have been played in support for years. I dont know where you have been.

woodvsmurph1 votes

I know. I have played them for years. I played morg for a full year as sup BEFORE she entered the support scene as a staple and beat the naut sup rush by a few patches. He was a least 2 years ago if i'm not mistaken; but as Zilean says, time flies.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

My point wasn't that Morde was a secret OP that wasn't played, my point was he was shit that wasn't playable until you at least had your revolver,

Nonetheless, I agree with what you have to say. I played tank akali and mid nocturne long before it became a thing on the pro scene way back.

LordOfTheLeague3 votes

They were a bit lazy to work on it, I assume.

FantasySniper6 votes

Two reasons; It's a lot harder to play around itemized burst healing than continuous healing, and champions like Vlad and Morde made Spell Vamp broke no matter what.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

{quoted}

It's a lot harder to play around itemized burst healing

Jhin item 3072 Ahahahaha!

Auz the Ripper2 votes

that's consistant though, just remember "1, 2, 3, 4"

Mhihnj1 votes

then cooldown

Ulquiorra9951 votes

"Harder to play around against itemized burst healing" doesn't really hold water when Death's Dance exists, since it provides exactly that to AD casters - while also making them even harder to kill due to bleed passive.

I think the better question is why is spellvamp considered unbalanceable for AP casters yet perfectly fine for AD ones?

FantasySniper1 votes

Because this game's balance is shit.

Ulquiorra9951 votes

Short and clear answer, I see. I like you.

But really. AD casters are just as diverse as AP ones.

You have champs who just murder you near instantly Talon Zed LeeSin You have sustain/tanky powerhouses which become even more unkillable with DD Darius Illaoi XinZhao LeeSin You have heavy AoE champions who can heal to near full with good use of their abilities MissFortune Riven You have sustained damage dealers which can use it to stay at full (aka all marks(wo)men)

But noooo. Spellvamp was completely unbalanceable.

cnfqkf1 votes

Because lifesteal is an ADCs main defensive option and has obvious counterplay to it.

Contrary to what you might believe, Steraks and Maw are not items you can fit into an ADC build in most cases and are rarely viable, let alone a purely defensive item.

There are many mage items with health and resistances, that's their form of defense.

Blackstone011 votes
  1. I didn't mention Sterak's or Maw.

  2. Mages can fit those health + AP items in just about as well as an ADC can fit in a Maw or Sterak's, they aren't typically core items and provide lower stat lines, meant for AP bruisers.

  3. If lifesteal is supposed to be a defensive stat for ADCs, why does it scale so well with damage? If an item is going to be a mix of offense and defense it shouldn't shine well in both cases, something needs to be sacrificed for the double dipping, which lifesteal items don't do.

cnfqkf1 votes

I know you didn't mention them, I'm just putting them out there because a common argument against lifesteal being an ADCs main defensive stat is "BUT THEY HAVE STERAKS TOO!!!".

Mage defensive items are often core in certain champions and buildable by just about any of them, there are absolutely no ADCs that use steraks or maw as core items.

They're not comparable at all.

Lifesteal scales with damage because that's what it's supposed to do...

There is no other way to make lifesteal effective in drawn out fights other than making it a flat amount, at which point it's either abusable by everyone or too garbage to build.

AirKingNeo13 votes

BoRK needs to be 15% lifesteal again and it's onhit damage reduced to 6.5% for ranged champions.

Your changes to BoRK are huge nerf to bruisers for no reason.

Also you played Garen. What did you expect?

Metallmeister2 votes

[deleted]

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Aatrox is a notable one, don't remember others. Jax?

manliestdino2 votes

Irelia is another

Hexs Fortune8 votes

I'd rather they add grevious wounds to a Juggernaut Item so divers, juggs and tanks can get some use out of healing reduction

Thilmer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9lPYq3sf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-15T16:06:55.914+0000)

I'd rather they add grevious wounds to a Juggernaut Item so divers, juggs and tanks can get some use out of healing reduction

I want more ítems with "grievous injuries" in general. A few days ago I was playing Mundo top, and the enemy toplaner was Vlad. What should I do, buying Executioners Calling in Mundo?

Cosmic Warper6 votes

the only things that need to be nerfed are bork on-hit applying lifesteal, and death's dance damage deferred percentage. Everything else is fine

ForgiveColour5 votes

i never take any balance suggestion from people that plays aram seriously

deadlychuck8 votes

I never take the opinions, or suggestions, of elitists seriously

ForgiveColour7 votes

How am i being an elitists? Aram balance is garbage and its 90% a 5v5 so this guy "1v1" mf is probably bullshit. Nice inferiority complex tho and failing to realize that this post is just a huge bullshit and aram LUL. He probably died to mf team instead of mf tanking him. + No one actually builds double lifesteal for adc in real game except for a situational merc

Executioner4 votes

Ah the sustain argument. Sorry you were by yourself as a garen, trying to kill a adc that had 2 sustain items, and a red pot. Then I am not surprised you died.

Big Lincoln10 votes

sorry you were garen and trying to do your job lol

sums up garen in 2017

MagikarpIsBoss1 votes

He should expect to lose that fight. By him trying to kill the mf, he completely deserved to die.

kile1473 votes

Garen is a juggernaut. The schtick of that class is that they are immoble, tanky, and high damage which means that their goal is to sit on top of someone and kill them, the counterplay is not to let them reach you. Garen specifically is designed to shut down enemy carries (it's his class niche). If he deserved to die for attempting to do that then you're basically saying that he deserved to die for playing Garen, because that's just how the champ is supposed to work.

cnfqkf2 votes

Garens job definitely isn't to solo run down an adc, he gets kited heavily.

To be honest I'm not sure what Garen would be useful for anymore, he falls off as a champion at like mid plat.

Big Lincoln3 votes

yes it is, garen entire kit revolves around chasing someone down and bursting them

that's his job in a teamfight

deadlychuck4 votes

I'd rather have them tone down AD across the boards, and because lifesteal (and physical vamp in the case of DD) scale directly with your damage output, reducing the damage output that AD provides would also solve this over abundance of sustain relative to the reduction in damage output.

Jorencice3 votes

Isn't greivious wounds like 800g?

I once bought it on support janna because they had a WW swain and Akali. Ended up winning the game to.

Dani El Pezglobo2 votes

If a object for ap exist to counter life steal, this wouldnt be so problematic item 3165 this have no sense, if he is 35% hp below, so i combo he 2 aa , and now he is up to 35% hp , so pasive doesnt apply

Kuronii Lumiira2 votes

it also takes away a slot that you could be using to actually further your own build rather than try to prevent an enemy from single-handedly mowing down your team.

kasfas3 votes

This is true. There is too much sustain especially in lane where some champions can no longer ever be pushed out.

An Undead brat2 votes

My friend told me there were 3 assassins (Zed, Diana and one another) droping their combos on MF on ARAM, she easily survived by standing and AAing. If he was lying? ADCs being useless is one of his main League opinions. The new Death's Dance is insane.

Executioner5 votes

If you have those two diving her? Then its most likely the team helping to keep that mf alive. She has good sustain, and I take it she got also attack speed. Also 3 assassins on aram suck. The map is to straight forward for them to do well. We all know you have two places the bush or come at us from the front. As a adc, I couldn't be any happier. It's extremely easy to get counter measures for them.

An Undead brat1 votes

No other factors, just what I said, wouldn't be different on SR.

Executioner3 votes

Wouldn't be different on SR? Well lets see on SR you have the entire map which is 3 lanes compared to just one lane. The enemy team is spread out, being the assassin comp you got in ARAM, you will be split pushing, and catching people. Also dueling anyone who tries to split push. Also if 3 assassins jump on Mf by herself, she will die. Even with all that sustain, it wont do her any good. Just from spells alone you will kill her. Team fights you come at different angles, with one target the MF. Now you killed her, move to the next target or get out of the team fight.

An Undead brat1 votes

These factors don't matter, what is important is that when 3 assassins burn their whole combo on an ADC, it shouldn't surrvive by standing in place and autoattacking. Just no.

Executioner8 votes

I find this very unlikely that you all blew all your combos, zed and diana alone going lets say class cannon should have killed that mf. If you didn't kill her the enemy team most likely helped to protect her. Shields, and heals. If 3 assassins are all full comboing her at the same time, someone missed. I find that extremely unlikely that she lived to tell the tales by herself.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Three assassin going all-in on a ADC is, by numbers alone, impossible for the ADC to survive.

Each of them will do at least 2000 raw damage if they hit everything, in the span of at most 3 seconds. While MF might have 2k base HP, a 345 point heal and BT's 350 damage overshield, she will not have nearly enough resistances to raise her effective HP to 6000.

Executioner3 votes

I completely agree.

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