What if Ahri's charm duration scaled with range?

TeemoXNidalee·Apr 13, 2017·42 votes·2,592 views

Similar to spear, long range charms = more cc, R -> point blank = 0.1sec charm.

Would it make her too hard for mains?

74 Comments

Ok sure but whyApr 13, 201718 votes

I guess you can say she looks better from a distance.

Xerath very creative

EuthenaasiaApr 13, 20179 votes

That would make too much sense and thus this idea will be overlooked.

Skins ProjectApr 13, 20172 votes

Actually... Gameplay wise it makes more sense, in a lore sense it's the opposite.

In theory, if someone attractive landed charming magic on you (Well if we just look at the magic it makes no difference on the range), the charm would be MORE effective if you were close, whilst losing power at a range.

An Enemy SutandoApr 13, 20171 votes

Lore and the game are separate.

Skins ProjectApr 13, 20175 votes

No... That isn't true..

Riot tries their best to intertwine the two, and I do believe that has been stated in the past.

Best example would be Kha'zix vs Rengar. The hunt is an interaction based off lore.

An Enemy SutandoApr 13, 20171 votes

While that is true, game balance shouldn't be sacrificed because "it fits the thematic better."

Skins ProjectApr 13, 20172 votes

Honestly it wouldn't sacrifice balance. Making it longer on either end helps balance....

Making it shorter for short distances pushes her more into mage when she's a mage/assassin..

Making it longer for short distances rewards her for getting into the opposing team where she can be burst...

Both sides just kind of push her more to one playstyle.

An Enemy SutandoApr 13, 20172 votes

Honestly I'm not even sure what the fuck Ahri even is right now. Riot has defined her as a "kite mage" but what exactly is a "kite mage"? Since every ranged champion can kite to a certain extent, this title implies that she is extra good at kiting. Fair enough, since that is shown by her MS on her Q, and 3 dashes.

However, a kite champion should be rewarded for hitting their skillshots. While this is true in the case of her Charm, she still gets her Q MS regardless if she hits anything or not, while still having sustain on her passive, thus making it less punishing for her if someone manages to juke her skillshots + E, not to mention the 3 dashes.

You can't really say that her damage is bad, either, as landing her charm guarantees that she's gonna land both parts of her Q, her E, and her W. Not to mention that her she does become quite spammy.

Skins ProjectApr 13, 20172 votes

Landing her charm guarantees that she's gonna land her charm.. Gotcha

ChaddyFantomeApr 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-13T14:12:29.802+0000)

Honestly it wouldn't sacrifice balance. Making it longer on either end helps balance....

Making it shorter for short distances pushes her more into mage when she's a mage/assassin..

Making it longer for short distances rewards her for getting into the opposing team where she can be burst...

Both sides just kind of push her more to one playstyle.

which is what she needs. Why should she get the best of both worlds when the two classes are polar opposites? it makes her too well rounded and void of meaningful weaknesses.

ChaddyFantomeApr 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-04-13T06:48:46.606+0000)

Actually... Gameplay wise it makes more sense, in a lore sense it's the opposite.

In theory, if someone attractive landed charming magic on you (Well if we just look at the magic it makes no difference on the range), the charm would be MORE effective if you were close, whilst losing power at a range.

No, because the idea is you get charmed and then come to your senses the closer you get to seeing what it is like up close. It actually makes too much sense both gameplay-wise a AND lore/character wise.

Skins ProjectApr 14, 20171 votes

What......

The point is that she is beautiful/attracting.

She's not a hideous siren that attracts you with a song.

ChaddyFantomeApr 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-14T23:28:49.909+0000)

What......

The point is that she is beautiful/attracting.

She's not a hideous siren that attracts you with a song.

It doesn't matter. Something that attracts you doesn't become more potent when you are already within range to see it perfectly fine.

Skins ProjectApr 15, 20171 votes

...

The idea from LORE is that she isn't necessarily using magic to do so.

In gameplay it is shown as magic because you can't have everyone just walking towards you mindlessly.

And by that logic... Well have you ever played a horror game? Does it get more scary or less scary when you approach the the door.

ChaddyFantomeApr 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skins Project,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=000300000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-15T04:38:56.531+0000)

...

The idea from LORE is that she isn't necessarily using magic to do so. In gameplay it is shown as magic because you can't have everyone just walking towards you mindlessly.

What does that have to do with my post at all? I don't remember stating that she did. getting desperate here.

And by that logic... Well have you ever played a horror game? Does it get more scary or less scary when you approach the the door.

I think we can safely agree that horror is not at all a comparable vice here.

Pierce The VealApr 13, 20179 votes

As someone who used to play her,

Isn't her charm easy as fuck to dodge? Throwing it from long range makes it almost impossible to hit unless the target is either retarded or a cho'gath.

MissingKayoApr 13, 20171 votes

That's the point. Maybe it would actually take some fucking brainpower to predict and fire it so it WOULD hit them factoring in dodging.

Pierce The VealApr 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's the point. Maybe it would actually take some fucking brainpower to predict and fire it so it WOULD hit them factoring in dodging.

Her running into melee range to make sure it lands while risking her life doesn't take strategic gameplay?

Hey, I ban Ahri every game (xerath recently though), but I still don't think that her charm is that bad.

Glory ln DeathApr 13, 20173 votes

Isn't Sion's Q ridiculously easy to dodge? Requiring him to charge for a full second before getting a knock-up makes it almost impossible to hit unless the target is either retarded or disgustingly immobile.

Pierce The VealApr 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=00100002,timestamp=2017-04-13T16:29:46.515+0000)

Isn't Sion's Q ridiculously easy to dodge? Requiring him to charge for a full second before getting a knock-up makes it almost impossible to hit unless the target is either retarded or disgustingly immobile.

Ignoring the part where Sion can make the target "disgustingly immobile," yes, it is ridiculously easy to charge.

LightIsMyPathApr 13, 20177 votes

Why would you want to reward her for passive playstyle? If they touch her at all in terms of distance it would make much more sense to do the opposite: Less effective spells from far, more effectiveness on close range. If they want to focus her into staying at a distance they would have to rework her w (which begs her to jump in opponent 's face so it wouldn't fit her kit anymore) into some kind of damaging longer range skillshot.. Would you really want a medium/high range mage to have 3 dashes and a movement speed steroid?

Jeanne fan clubApr 13, 20175 votes

That would be a bad idea.

The thing with ahri is that she is supposed to get close to people to kill them. By making it so that her charm is worthless at close range, but good at long range defeats this whole premise. Its a way to balance her in teamfights, if she gets close to use her W she is supposed to be putting herself in danger, but if the only way to use her E is to sit at long range, then there is no point in ahri going in. This would end up creating more problems than solving them. Also, 0.1 second? ive had many instances where the charm effect wouldn't even start until about .5 seconds in.

And no, it wouldn't make her to hard for her mains. I can promise you that she could be gutted and still have a 53% winrate because her mains are just too good at her for any nerf to mean anything. It would just make play in a way that would prioritize long range poke rather than actually going in. Pretty boring and antithetical to the champion's design

If anything, her E duration should go up as she gets closer, that way it forces her to throw herself in the way of danger for good stuns. Also its easy as hell to dodge Q return if you throw it at someone right in front of you

LauchmelderApr 13, 20174 votes

I suggested that a few weeks ago, got downvoted into oblivion.

It's one of the few things they could do to give Ahri skillshots instead of the point blank Charm into a 100% hit Q.

HaIlMonitorApr 13, 20172 votes

Is this really the problem though? Melee champs usually kill her easier then ranged in lane like Talon, so why basically only nerf her vs stuff she is already bad vs?

LauchmelderApr 13, 20174 votes

Because she got mobility. If she allows a melee to get close she deserves to get punished considering she should be a "kite mage".

Her current E nullifies this weakness.

If the enemy uses a gapcloser she should be forced to answer with her ult or flash lategame.

ChaddyFantomeApr 13, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Is this really the problem though? Melee champs usually kill her easier then ranged in lane like Talon, so why basically only nerf her vs stuff she is already bad vs?

In what universe is this true?

CochoApr 13, 20172 votes

i actually saw that lmao, the boards op

SexyBabyJesusZApr 13, 20173 votes

i like this

ChaddyFantomeApr 13, 20173 votes

This would make her less safe when she gets jumped on and make it less easy for her to CC people by jumping into melee range of them.

An interesting idea to say the least.

AmazoXApr 13, 20171 votes

It reduces her safety and will differentiate more between the good Ahri players and the bad.

HyperiönApr 13, 20171 votes

Not really. A .1second CC on a charm for someone who flashes/dashes on you will guarentee her death if her ult is down.

If her Ult is on CD, her charm is the only thing keeping her alive.

ChaddyFantomeApr 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=FF Hyperion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-04-13T13:34:35.038+0000)

Not really. A .1second CC on a charm for someone who flashes/dashes on you will guarentee her death if her ult is down.

If her Ult is on CD, her charm is the only thing keeping her alive.

Which is more than other Assassins have since their only defensive option is Mobility, and more than Mages since their only defensive option is Instant CC.

Even Leblanc another Mage/Assassin hybrid, has to wait near a person to get CC on them.

Why does Ahri get to be the exception and get the best of both worlds?

ChaoticPineconeApr 13, 20174 votes

I can understand if she was immobile like Xerath or Lux or even TF, but I personally think that a champion with 3 dashes on her ult and a movespeed boost on her Q should be a little bit more vulnerable when being jumped on.

RhaiApr 13, 20172 votes

Problem would be that it would not only gut her defense, but also her offense due to W and R's relatively low lock-on range.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 13, 20173 votes

for once... there a good idea on this board*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

chipndip1Apr 13, 20172 votes

I dislike it. It'd force you to have to use her combos at mid or max range, which would be way harder to do when the prime way to do her combos is to ult at your target with E shot in-tandem.

I'd hit her early game safety before hitting her damage potential if we're going to nerf Ahri. Make her gradually scale into being a safer burst mage pick similar to how other burst mages scale into being higher damage picks.

MelledoneusApr 13, 20172 votes

I would say if anything bring down her early safety. And maybe tone down the damage on her Q at early levels in favor of her level 9 power spike.

HyperiönApr 13, 20171 votes

Her safety early game is nothing until she hits 6. She is easily killable in lane when her ult is down. Her damage on Q early is very low already, on top of a low scaling.

The only thing that makes Ahri's Q worth maxing first instead of charm is because it has true damage. Thats why when you get hit by it, the first cast does nothing. Almost all of her damage is build into the second part of her Q.

DunkinNoobsApr 13, 20172 votes

This change would punish good gameplay, and Riot tends to frown on that sort of thing. Ahri is supposed to get close to the enemy she's trying to kill, and tying the length of her charm to how far away she is contradicts this idea. Xerath's E works in the opposite way because he's supposed to keep his distance, and has his E be weaker if he fails to do so.

As for Nidalee, her Q is a relic from her old design that never really knew what it wanted to be. Now that Nid has been cemented as an assassin, her human form abilities should probably be looked at. Her current contradictory design would never have come out on a modern champion, for example.

ModAcademy KaynApr 13, 20172 votes

This is a terrible idea, because other than Xerath, who had it changed that way because his weakness is being jumped on, no other mage has that condition for their CC. You actually force Ahri's not to play aggresively, as they hold on to their ults only for escape, or until they hit a ranged charm, which is actually easy to dodge. At least an Ahri getting in point blank is allowing for some retaliation early game, because there is no way she can 100-0 you, within a second.

Ahri doesn't need this because her weakness is not getting jumped on. Her weakness is a good front line who knows how to deal with Ahri. Actually removing risk from her kit, by making her play more backline than getting people's faces is stupid.

NineTailedMysticApr 13, 20172 votes

It would be garbage. She likes staying at a pretty close range due to her W and R having 550 and 600 iirc respectively. Not to mention this would drastically crush some of her better match ups like Xerath, Lux, or Ziggs where she wants to be almost on top of them, as well as making her CC unreliable due to the variables.

Say what you want about her dashing for close range skillshots, but that's a lot of her risk. Going into that range which is retaliation range for almost every other champion in the game, otherwise she fishes for easy to dodge long range Charms from safety.

Also if you're using Nidalee as a comparison, Ahri doesn't get any reward for hitting her E other than the CC and damage while Nidalee gets empowered effects on her cougar abilities for landing her Q.

Overall it would be a very significant nerf, and would relegate her to the same thing Nidalee does. Sit back and throw her spears of love until she lands one and then if she's ever in trouble uses her mobility to run away instead of using it to commit.

Once again, if you want to nerf Ahri, take away her Q MS. They never even tested to see how she would do without her E amp and just threw on the Q MS immediately iirc.

Edit: I like how someone downvoted all of my posts on this thread. Surely, my 1000+ games of experience on Ahri mean nothing.

FastAsHeckApr 13, 20172 votes

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand it's a cool idea, on the other it contradicts her W. It would have to be coupled with a rework of her W do be usable.

BisaknospApr 13, 20172 votes

braindmg

Glory ln DeathApr 13, 20172 votes

I've seen some weird ships in my day, but Teemo x Nidalee takes the cake...

SniperkajApr 13, 20172 votes

All these creative solutions are not needed at all. Simple number tuning will do the trick. Ahri's kit is healthy - yes theres a lot thrown around the boards these days, but imagine if Yasuo or LeeSin had a 53 % winrate for 2 years... oh boy. They would easily have 100 % banrate! Ahri is not cancer to play against, she just does too much damage with too much safety, so tune either down a bit.

ThefrostyvikingApr 13, 20171 votes

The issue is not Ahri's charm tho, it's her ultimate CD.

While the base CD is actually fine it suffered from the same issue as Ashe did a while ago.

It hasn't been tuned to item changes, more CDR became available to mages making it easy to cap it out early which in turn makes the ulti CD very short!

Short ulti CD makes it easy to escape dying and punish enemy mistakes without exposing much of a weakness ever which is definitely OP.

So like with Ashe, raise base CD on ulti to enforce the already used build so that she has moments of defined weakness if she uses it.

Makes a bad play or escapes a gank? XX time for her lane opponent to harass and punish her because she is very weak without it.

Gains a kill? Is now open to a gank from the jungler.

In my eyes this seems like the most reasonable solution.

HyperiönApr 13, 20174 votes

Almost every champions ult is short if they cap at 45%

ThefrostyvikingApr 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=FF Hyperion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pJqvrQgf,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2017-04-13T13:23:41.320+0000)

Almost every champions ult is short if they cap at 45%

I can't say i am sure but i think her´s is the second shortest except lux, which would be fine if not for how versatile it is which is what causes all these problems it seems x)

HyperiönApr 13, 20173 votes

Ahri is supposed to be a mobile assassin.

Her Ult timer is almost the same as most of the other Mages too. (The following is without cdr)

Syndra, 80 seconds. Orianna, 80 seconds. Lux, 60 seconds (not including the built in CDR too) Ziggs, 90 seconds Ekko, 70 seconds.

That just names a few. But Ahri's ult is similar to most of the meta mages right now.

Karthus being the exception at like 160 seconds rank 3.

You get to chose between utility and damage.

Syndra, full blown Nuke to the face. Orianna, Another AOE nuke Lux, Ima kill you if I land my Q Ziggs, Justice rains from above. Ekko, Try to kill me now.

Ahri. Catch me outside how bout dat.

Jeanne fan clubApr 13, 20172 votes

Bruh, ult cd doesn't matter. It will always be up for the next teamfight, same with every other ult in the game. The only times it would not be up when she needs it is if the enemy team is specifically planning around that ult. in that scenario it doesn't matter if her ult cd is 30 or 1000, the enemy team is reacting right when that ult is on cd so it doesn't matter.