Tristana's identity "the best self peeling late game hypercarry" according to one boards member

Tychusfindlay918·Feb 5, 2018·89 votes·4,635 views

My question is, how does one pair "best self peeling" and "hypercarry" together without creating an inherently cancerous design? Not to mention that he forgot that she also boasts one of the best late game auto ranges of any champion. You know who else is an amazing self peeling hypercarry? Vayne...

Tristana's identity is toxicity. She's the vayne that swapped stealth for over 100 range. She has amazing inherent wave clear, very long range, a massive on demand AS steroid, mobility, knockback, and she can use her E on turrets. You said her Q provides a window of power, and it used to, but they increased its duration.

Patch 7.3

Rapid fire - Duration increased to 7 seconds from 5

7 seconds is MORE than enough for a mid-late game teamfight. Where the fuck is this magical window of opportunity where she doesn't wreck shit?

Look at all the other hypercarries.

At least she's fucking immobile, and needs a kill or assist to REALLY get going in a fight. She also has to stack minigun 3 times as opposed to tristana who presses Q to instantly gain massive attack speed.

(crit build) His whole kit minus his dancing grenade is skillshot oriented, and he actually relies on his kit quite a bit rather than just right clicking things to death.

A lot of her damage is put into her E which has a lot of counterplay involved, and she also has very short range.

Also cancer when she's meta

LUL

Also cancer, but at least once he's out of stealth that's it for him, and you can actually catch him just once and that's it, hes dead.

Same thing as jinx but even better than her, but at least if he gets jumped on that's it, hes done for (although his typical builds give him more safety than crit ADCs, but that's an argument for a different thread).

Don't even get me started with that dumbass W buffer. Any half-brained tristana can nullify getting caught with her W jump.

111 Comments

HayaishiFeb 5, 201857 votes

Tristana is incredibly overloaded i think everyone can agree on that.

Just look at her W, that ability can be reset by 2 different methods. It just makes her insanely safe. She's a champion with a knockback and the highest range of all marksman.

Why is her W capable of resets, not only that but by 2 different ways?

I mean if she actually needed the resets it would make sense, but she doesn't because she's a low risk champion.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 5, 201839 votes

{quoted}

Tristana is incredibly overloaded i think everyone can agree on that.

True, but apparently many like to think of that as just being "her identity"

RyrynounetFeb 5, 20183 votes

I thought her identity was to wreck turret faster than a yorick

AmazoXFeb 5, 201821 votes

When Tristana uses her R on you and sends you to Bronze V ELO Hell. #The range on her R knockback just makes me want to stick a fork into my eyes

WardBaronFFSFeb 5, 20187 votes

My brother was playing jax and he tried Qing on her and she literally knocked him behind her tower.....

ShaolinToiletFeb 5, 201813 votes

Just remove her w reset and she is still fun because she does a shit ton of damage with her q but also has one w for fights making her save it for the right moment

Yordle XayahFeb 5, 201811 votes

I'm just gonna copy and post what I replied to someone on my original thread, because I find it very unfair and quite obnoxious that you're trying to reduce my original post to a SINGLE sentence, you put it in a vacuum and pretend that's how the game works.

Anyway... here's the post:

{quoted}

Is being the best late game self peeling hypercarry a healthy fantasy to play with? - This is a fantasy she has had for almost all of her history, or at the very least since the introduction of her Rocket Jump and Reset mechanics. If you ask any pro player (try Sneaky's stream) they will tell you that this is the reason why they play her. It is very important to notice that this is a fantasy that she has always had, even when she was considered non meta and a terrible pick in general so I think it's very double standards and quite shady to suddenly question this particular part of the character only when she got popular, to which I must also note that she has never in recent history been around the higher 50s in Win Ratios. Not when she is good, nor when she is bad. Last year she had a period where she was the least picked ADC and somewhere around the 14th worst ADC in the entire game, and I don't remember anyone questioning if her identity was "healthy" back then, so this why I find your question quite unfair, a bit bias and yeah... a bit annoying. If I wanted to just be a fangirl, my post would be all about how she has no problems, but that would be quite a ridiculous lie. However, to answer your direct question: Yes, yes it is healthy and I just spend a very long time building a post as to what her real problems are, which come in the form of burst damage, a power spike that arrives too early (20 minutes) for a champion designed to get strong around 35 minutes instead, and a very out of place demolishing ability that in a world where Towers are useless, gives her a very unique and rather stupid point of power that has no place in her kit when she can take a tower before the 10 minute mark, as I posted above.

What exactly are the weaknesses of Tristana in this regard? - This is the question that makes me think you really don't know her too well, because anyone that has put around 50 games on the champion can tell you about these weaknesses. I think to discuss Tristana, you need to know Tristana, and this actually applies to any champion in the game, because otherwise there's just not enough experience to view the champion on fair ground. It's very easy to get upset about a champion you're playing against, but unless you play/understand them, a post attacking them may come across as either naive or just ignorant to the champion, making it feel like a frustration-based complaint rather than a real objective one. Let's then expand what "The Best Late Game Self Peeling Hyper Carry" truly amounts to.

She has no innate true damage or tank burst skills such as Vayne or Kog

She has no innate high AoE damage for team fights like Miss Fortune, Jinx with her Chompers or Taliyah with her feathers

She has no form of neutral objective control or siege power¹ like Cait or Varus ¹She has a skill useful during sieges, which is Explosive Charge's damage on structures, and do I really need to elaborate more on why I don't like her being able to do that? Haven't I stressed enough how out of place this is in her kit and how I would actually preferred if it got removed or heavily nerfed?

Her power is mostly single target and relies on the proper use of her peeling tools to position properly during a fight

Now that we've laid down those points, let's mention the weaknesses of the style and also why some of these aren't being felt right now.

The play style rewards proper use of the tools and punishes poor use of the kit: As I've mentioned before, Rocket Jump is on a fairly long 14 Seconds cool down, and without a reset it can only be used once during an engage. If you use your jump to chase a bad kill, you're dead. If you use your Buster Shot as a finishing move and fail to do the damage you need, you won't be able to stay safe during an upcoming fight. Need I remind you I suggested reducing the ultimate's damage too? Playing carelessly and jumping into anything without proper setup will result in a very common feature in League: A gray screen. Apparent problems with the play style are a result of the meta and NOT her kit (Other than the Demolishing Structures bit) - As I've mentioned before, she has had this identity for years, many of which (Immediate Post-Rework and most of 2016 and 2017) she wasn't even considered good. So why does she happen to feel so strong right now? Because of two major aspects I've critiqued myself about both the meta and Trist as a champion but I guess I'll mention them again: First: She should NOT be a bursty character. She needs to work her way towards those resets, not get them via two auto attacks. She needs to be a steady DPS, long ranged character, not (as I stated in my original post) a ranged assassin. Other than the game having way too much damage in general (this is common knowledge) there's a second factor contributing to this. Two: Critical Strike Items are too cheap for how efficient they are. Remember what I've said about these items being available so early into the game? Is it fair that she's jumping, bursting and resetting 20 minutes into the game? Of course not. And here's an interesting bit of trivia you probably didn't know: Her kit right now, based the raw numbers it has Is Objectively worse than the one she had when she was the 14th worst ADC in the game so what changed?... Critical Strike Items.

Beat her in lane, Drive that advantage home... except that: The main reason why she wasn't very good for the longest time, was because how weak her laning phase can be. The passive portion of Explosive Charge makes it really hard for her to control a wave in lane, making it easy for lane bullies or even just characters with a longer range in lane to flat out zone her out of her farm. Professional player Forg1ven made a guide a while ago that accentuates the need for her to avoid trades and focus on farming. So what happened? Ardent Censer Meta - Got a weak laning phase? Get yourself a Lulu/Janna/Karma rushing Ardent and suddenly you're much safer. Critical Strike Items - Again... cheap and effective, they shorten what should be her weaker stage in the game and suddenly she can duel you on a BF and a Shiv alone. Targon Meta and Fleet Footwork - I personally really like Lethal Tempo but why would I ever bother with that when FF (and Targon before nerf) would just give me a bunch of easy free sustain in lane? Haven't you noticed how all these late game carries suddenly have a much easier laning phase? Someone (in Korea... what a surprise) found out that Hyper Carries can just take FF, stay safe for 10 minutes and then come back to lane with a BF and a Shiv or a Runnans and skip their weaker portions of their power curve. Meta exceptions right now are Varus and Kog, who may have their own set of problems but I won't sit here and pretend I understand how those champions work, but the point is: Critical Strike users are getting a free laning phase through Fleet Footwork and cheap builds so OF COURSE they feel unfair, specially if their fantasy is to be a daring yordle who jumps around pushing baddies away. Haven't I talked a lot about burst damage and cheap effective Crit builds already and how I think that's not good for the game?? Add Stopwatch on top of that and suddenly, that dangerous lane doesn't seem nearly as bad. Then she's also taking free boots making her path to Crit Strike items even easier. These issues take what normally is a fair fantasy, that takes time and rewards proper positioning and make them WAY too easy to get to. It's not her fantasy that is the problem... It's her items and the overall state of Power Creep in the meta that are busting her out

To conclude, and as I mentioned above, Tristana is not a natural Tank Buster, and she herself requires a front line to be played properly. If tanks are balanced or not is a topic I won't go into here, but playing her without a front line is almost impossible to do, even with her self peeling kit. Sure, she may not die, but without a front line, she can't really deal any damage in a fight. Tristana is all about positioning, taking care of yourself and dealing that single target damage. She's very reliant on her own team and positioning, as she usually can take only one target at the time. It's not the same to play with a fed Vlad going massive on AoE and a huge Cho serving as your front line, than playing with a team that had a rough early game and can't provide any of that for her, cause yes: she needs setup to perform at her best and two self peeling skills poorly used can be abused. Her problems lie elsewhere and I think I've elaborated on those heavily bot on my original post and now replying to you.

It's VERY shady that you guys suddenly have a problem with her identity, but didn't bat an eye about the very same thing through the periods where she struggled. That only tells me you are putting her in a vacuum, don't consider what has changed around her and just flat out don't understand the character.

Yordle XayahFeb 5, 20187 votes

If there's gonna be a discussion, then make it fair, cause otherwise it's really frustrating. It's funny how you mention the 7.3 patch buff yet JUST IGNORE how she was The 14th Worst ADC In the game during Patch 7.13, way after that 7.3 buff. Mentioning only what's convenient to your argument is just a very poor choice.

I never see anyone ever asking stuff like:

Why wasn't she so overbearing before? What changed around her? How come that having worse numbers than the kit she had at 7.13 she's suddenly performing better? Why is she getting her resets so easily? Did Runes have anything to do with it? How is she reaching her power spike around 20 mins instead of the intended 30 - 35? Does the game state have any kind of influence on her kit?

You guys think I find it fair that she's bursting people with 2 - 4 autos at 20 mins and on just two items?

I don't.

This is why taking my comment out of context and out of my original post where I critique a bunch of things about Tristana makes this post feel to me like hater-pandering and not an attempt at a fair conversation.

I feel like I'm gonna start quoting a bunch of things from my original post, but why not continue the conversation in my original post?

Is any mod reading this? Isn't this topic a bit redundant? I've been having conversations on my original post just fine. I don't understand the point of this post. It's only forcing me to repeat myself from my original post.

Yaśuo MainFeb 5, 201810 votes

Well, OP is an idiot (or more fitting, a dirtbag). He used a hyperbole to get upvotes all the while with really bad arguments on his side that seemed "slightly" viable because there was no counter-argument. The only reason this post is even 40+ is because of mob mentality. Can't really stop it.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 5, 20182 votes

I agree. Historically Tristana has always been heavily influenced by changes to marksman items, during Season 4 when I started playing she was considered fairly bad unless the game went on long enough because people were rushing the old Bloodthirster and she was reliant on IE which was also more expensive back then.

Let's look at something for instance, B.F. Sword now costs 250 gold less than it did before, yes it gives 10 less AD but 40 AD is a huge spike in damage and now all marksmen come back to lane with a BF after their first back so long as they didn't die within the first 5 minutes of lanning phase, when it used to be that choosing between BF sword or a Pickax used to be a big decision, even if you had gotten a kill in lane.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 5, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHPhnnEL,comment-id=001f00000000,timestamp=2018-02-05T20:49:44.580+0000)

Well, OP is an idiot (or more fitting, a dirtbag). He used a hyperbole to get upvotes all the while with really bad arguments on his side that seemed "slightly" viable because there was no counter-argument. The only reason this post is even 40+ is because of mob mentality. Can't really stop it.

What hyperbole? Do you even understand the vocabulary with which you toss around?

If you're going to call someone an idiot, then at least use the correct literary terms when half-assed critiquing why you think they're an idiot.

The basis of this OP is founded upon triistana's post, because it's a quote. There isn't a shred of hyperbole in the OP.

CrystalyskFeb 6, 20186 votes

I'll correct this for you.

This post is based on multiple quotes you took from Triistana's thread, from both OP post and comments you found there. You simply took the chance to farm upvotes and honestly i don't even care. I just want to say something about it though, because you really put it without any argument like Yasuo Main said. At the end of the day, you just took a bunch of quotes from the other post and only added your special list of hyper carries ADCs which is also not argumented properly and not even accurated. The fact you put Jhin with hyper carries already shows how you don't know many things about them.

Triistana's post was actually well thought and with good arguments, i actually agreed with something but not everything. He indeed said Tristana's current identity is "The Best Self Peeling Late Game Hyper Carry" which is actually correct. You can't say that's wrong. Now lets not discuss if her identity is broken or not because we are not talking about that.

So, like Yasuo Main said the only reason this thread has upvotes is because people probably didn't even read Triistana's post, so you just created a misunderstanding by putting this title without actually give a good context for people. People just hate Tristana because everytime she is meta she is disgustingly strong so the title along the current meta just make people go crazy and insta upvote shit like this.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'll correct this for you.

This post is based on multiple quotes you took from Triistana's thread, from both OP post and comments you found on that. You simply took the chance to farm upvotes and honestly i don't even care. I just want to say something about it though, because you really put it without any argument like Yasuo Main said. At the end of the day, you just took a bunch of quotes from the other post and only added your special list of hyper carries ADCs which is also not argumented properly and not even accurated. The fact you put Jhin with hyper carries already shows how you don't know many things about them.

Triistana's post was actually well thought and with good arguments, i actually agreed with something but not everything. He indeed said Tristana's current identity is "The Best Self Peeling Late Game Hyper Carry" which is actually correct. You can't say that's wrong. Now lets not discuss if her identity is broken or not because we are not talking about that.

So, like Yasuo Main said the only reason this thread has upvotes is because people probably didn't even read Triistana's post, so you just created a misunderstanding by putting this title without actually give a good context for people. People just hate Tristana because everytime she is meta she is disgustingly strong so the title along the current meta just make people go crazy and insta upvote shit like this.

You can be mad at the popular opinion all you want.

CrystalyskFeb 6, 20185 votes

Too bad this popular opinion doesn't mean anything since it comes out of something that is senseless just because people are blind. Why would i be mad about this? I'm actually just sad to see people upvote this.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If there's gonna be a discussion, then make it fair, cause otherwise it's really frustrating. It's funny how you mention the 7.3 patch buff yet JUST IGNORE how she was The 14th Worst ADC In the game during Patch 7.13, way after that 7.3 buff. Mentioning only what's convenient to your argument is just a very poor choice.

I never see anyone ever asking stuff like:

Why wasn't she so overbearing before? What changed around her? How come that having worse numbers than the kit she had at 7.13 she's suddenly performing better? Why is she getting her resets so easily? Did Runes have anything to do with it? How is she reaching her power spike around 20 mins instead of the intended 30 - 35? Does the game state have any kind of influence on her kit?

You guys think I find it fair that she's bursting people with 2 - 4 autos at 20 mins and on just two items?

I don't.

This is why taking my comment out of context and out of my original post where I critique a bunch of things about Tristana makes this post feel to me like hater-pandering and not an attempt at a fair conversation.

I feel like I'm gonna start quoting a bunch of things from my original post, but why not continue the conversation in my original post?

Is any mod reading this? Isn't this topic a bit redundant? I've been having conversations on my original post just fine. I don't understand the point of this post. It's only forcing me to repeat myself from my original post.

Yes, cry in a corner to the mods because you've taken it upon yourself to expose your own beloved champion for what she is, a trash identity.

Yordle XayahFeb 5, 20185 votes

So it is as I suspected. You're not interested in actually creating a conversation. You're just a salty haters pander that needs The Boards to up vote a really awful post to validate themselves or whatever.

I have nothing to say to you.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 5, 20183 votes

{quoted}

So it is as I suspected. You're not interested in actually creating a conversation. You're just a salty haters pander that needs The Boards to up vote a really awful post to validate themselves or whatever.

I have nothing to say to you.

On the contrary I am, hence the post.

Her identity is inherently awful, and I had quoted you in another post around here as to why no one cared for her when she was trash.

Go take a look I dont really care.

Yordle XayahFeb 5, 20186 votes

I have no interest. Your posts are poorly constructed, you fail to address any actual point of interest and all of what you're saying can be reduced to:

Her identity is shit, you said it deal with it haha

I have nothing to say to you.

AleksaTeemoFeb 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I have no interest. Your posts are poorly constructed, you fail to address any actual point of interest and all of what you're saying can be reduced to:

Her identity is shit, you said it deal with it haha

I have nothing to say to you.

Oh please self peeling hyper carry with the longest base range at lvl 13 and resets with W is not a healthy thing in no way.Also sieging.

Yordle XayahFeb 5, 20182 votes

You're a different person, so therefore I invite you to read everything I've posted on the issue so far, because it's not as simple as just that. If after reading my posts you wish to then discuss, I'm open to it :)

Tychusfindlay918Feb 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're a different person, so therefore I invite you to read everything I've posted on the issue so far, because it's not as simple as just that. If after reading my posts you wish to then discuss, I'm open to it :)

Yes prove yourself to be beneath me.

Yordle XayahFeb 6, 20183 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/518/339/5e2.jpg

CyberBaltFeb 5, 20184 votes

Yeah, I'm sorry for you :/. Your post was very well written, and OP didn't really even address your core argument. This is coming from someone who hates Tristana with a passion

Teridax68Feb 5, 20189 votes

Historically, Tristana's identity has been that she ended up offering everything a marksman could want once she hit late-game, including massive range, self-peel, on-demand steroids and mobility. In practice, this kind of design has turned out to not only be unhealthy (she ends up with no real weaknesses that can be exploited), but also tremendously boring even for the Tristana player, as there's essentially just one ability in her entire kit that carries any real gameplay. Historically, Tristana was also balanced around having a power curve where she was good early and terrific late, but really terrible mid game, back when marksmen had to spent a lot more time building raw AD before eventually itemizing for crit and attack speed. Now that that meta has changed, Tristana doesn't really have any point in the game where she's exceptionally weak, and as a result she also has the privilege of being a hypercarry that also scales quite safely and reliably. Despite her mini-VGU, Tristana's gameplay is still largely stuck in the past, and her kit still has far too little interactivity.

Looking at her current kit, while there are problematic aspects to her W and R, especially in combination with each other, I think her biggest pain points are actually her innate and Q: both of these are high-uptime, completely unconditional steroids that afford Trist a huge amount of baseline power. Additionally, because her E is dependent on high attack speed, there is very little original gameplay to her Q, which she typically activates at the same time as her E. Changing these effects into conditional power, ideally power that puts Tristana at more risk, could be a step forward towards improving her. Trist still lacks a niche beyond "does everything well past X items", and I think this could also be an opportunity to orient her more towards her E and ability to lay down tower-destroying AoE burst, in exchange for less persistent power in-between her bombs.

With specific regards to her W and R, I think the issue isn't so much that she has them per se, but that she gets to use both abilities purely for self-peel and not pay any sort of price for it. This feels like a hugely wasted opportunity for good gameplay, particularly since everything about Trist's theme, lore, etc. encourages her to use her rocket jump to dive in, not out of fights. To answer this, I think Trist needs to have a lot more power shifted away from the use of those abilities as generic peel, and instead shifted towards using those abilities offensively. Changing Trist's W reset so that it only activates if she uses her W to dive into a fight, rather than away (e.g. by only resetting her W against an enemy with a bomb on them), could force downtime on her defensive use of her mobility, while potentially giving her even more reset potential if she plays aggressively and puts herself at risk. As for her ult, I think it might help to identify the interesting use cases for it (e.g. insec target into friendly team, lay bomb on target and shoot them into their allies, etc.), separate them from the boring use cases (e.g. press R to instantly send everyone remotely near you 1000 units away and negate their dive against you), and thereby balance her around those to also make her less safe, while still allowing her to be strong in the right circumstances.

Yordle XayahFeb 5, 20182 votes

You must consider:

She's mostly Single Target
She has no innate True Damage like Vayne or on-hit viability the way Kog does
She's not particularly good against tanks based on her damage, but rather on positioning
Rocket Jump has a fairly long 14 Seconds cool down when there's no reset
She has no innate skills to control objectives as Cait Traps or Jinx Chompers
She should NOT have siege tools. I've stated many times in these posts that Explosive Charge on structures feels out of place and gives her a really awkward power against structures that makes no sense to her theme or design.

She does not provide "everything" every other ADC on a single kit. That's just not true. So to me it comes down to this. If resets are a problem, then:

Why is she getting those resets so easily? - Critical Strike Items and her burst. I've stated this before but Trist should NOT work like a ranged Katarina or Kah. She should be a ranged steady DPS that has to work for those resets, not get them for free via Critical Strike Burst. It's not the resets. It's how easy she's getting them from this burst she has.
Why can she get Critical Strike so easily? - Bunch of things. Fleet Footwork provides free sustain in lane for farming and trades. She's super safe from dives thanks to Stopwatch. Crit Items themselves got really cheap for how effective they are a couple patches ago. Even if she doesn't build Guardian Angel (which is also cheaper from the Watch Rune) she can still sell the watch and accelerate her build. She can also get boots for free so that's 300 gold less she can also invest in her Crit Build way too early.

About her history, I don't trust Riot's handling of the champion since 2016, as Scarizard commented (before he left Riot) that they didn't know what to do with Trist, and that was because I directly asked the question during a live Q&A on Twitch. Meddler has yet to mention her on his Gameplay Thoughts, and she was flat out neglected entirely in 2016. Riot recently removed most of those mid-game power dips champs like Trist used to have, and I'm not ok with that. Skipping straight to late game with an easy build path and basing her damage on burst and OF COURSE she's gonna find resets everywhere, even more if her team is doing well and adding even more damage on top of her burst.

But I firmly believe the issue is: With the game state around her and not her kit or she would have been as frustrating and as popular as she is today if the problem was on her kit, but no. It has barely been touched, and yet, on worse numbers than what she had on 7.13 when she was the 14th worst AD in the game, she's performing better. Why could this be then?? It's the game around her, not her kit.

Teridax68Feb 5, 20184 votes

{quoted}

She's mostly Single Target

Three of her four active abilities affect multiple targets as once, and she has an AoE passive on top of that. Her AoE is above-average for a marksman, even if it might not appear that way in an environment where Twitch and Miss Fortune have more presence.

{quoted}

She has no innate True Damage like Vayne or on-hit viability the way Kog does

She nonetheless has a permanent range steroid, and the strongest attack speed steroid in the game (which makes her synergize with on-hit pretty damn well), whereas Vayne has only limited range and Kog has limited mobility. "Everything a marksman could want" and "literally every marksman mechanic in the game" are two different things.

{quoted}

She's not particularly good against tanks based on her damage, but rather on positioning

So... she's still good against tanks, then, is what you're saying.

{quoted}

Rocket Jump has a fairly long 14 Seconds cool down when there's no reset

Emphasis on "when there's no reset", which can occur from two independent sources and isn't particularly difficult to achieve once you have the attack speed to land max-stack Es reliably. This is on a 900-range dash, by the way, the second-longest dash a marksman can obtain, right after Corki's Special Delivery on a static 4-minute cooldown. There is no way this does not constitute top-tier marksman mobility.

{quoted}

She has no innate skills to control objectives as Cait Traps or Jinx Chompers

She instead has an AoE Lee Sin ult capable of pushing the entire enemy team back from large distances as needed, as well as one of the very few abilities capable of directly damaging all objectives, including structures.

{quoted}

She should NOT have siege tools. I've stated many times in these posts that Explosive Charge on structures feels out of place and gives her a really awkward power against structures that makes no sense to her theme or design.

Even if she didn't have Explosive Charge, she'd still have huge permanent range and an attack speed steroid that would let her shred towers faster anyway. One way or another, Tristana can siege.

{quoted}

She does not provide "everything" every other ADC on a single kit. That's just not true.

Read again what I wrote. I did not say she provides literally every mechanic possessed by every ADC, I said she offered everything a marksman could want past a certain stage in the game, which includes pushing power, DPS, self-peel, sieging, and repositioning. Perhaps this does not constitute literally every strength possessed by every other marksman ever, and thankfully so, but this still largely covers the bases of what one would want on a marksman.

{quoted}

Why is she getting those resets so easily? - Critical Strike Items and her burst. I've stated this before but Trist should NOT work like a ranged Katarina or Kah. She should be a ranged steady DPS that has to work for those resets, not get them for free via Critical Strike Burst. It's not the resets. It's how easy she's getting them from this burst she has.

If killing a target outright does not constitute working hard enough for Tristana, then perhaps the issue is tied to more things than just her resets. I personally agree that her resets should not be tied to takedowns, but more because I think she should only be rewarded with extra mobility for putting herself at risk, and not for just constantly jumping to a better position each time.

{quoted}

But I firmly believe the issue is: With the game state around her and not her kit or she would have been as frustrating and as popular as she is today if the problem was on her kit, but no. It has barely been touched, and yet, on worse numbers than what she had on 7.13 when she was the 14th worst AD in the game, she's performing better. Why could this be then?? It's the game around her, not her kit.

I partially agree with this. In an environment where marksmen took longer to scale, and did so by first loading up on AD with two items, then following up with attack speed and crit, Tristana's power dipped appropriately in the mid game, but now that a marksman can get 50% crit chance and 35% bonus attack speed with just two items, there is no dip. In this respect, I do agree that systemic changes would help balance Trist, though beyond that I also think she has some design problems: as you said yourself, Riot has never had a particular strong definition for what Trist is supposed to be, and that showed when they gave her a mini-rework, changing her E completely but leaving the rest of her kit untouched. To this day, I still think she's a bit too generic and unfocused, and it's this kind of very general-purpose power that occasionally causes her to become a major problem whenever she gets past a certain power threshold. Because of this, I think she needs to be tailored towards a true niche, so while we may personally differ on what niche that should be, there's room for refinement either way.

Chromatic EagleFeb 5, 20187 votes

She has two identities: daredevil gunner, which involves removing her scaling range and Q; and explosive hyper carry, which involves getting rid of her W. Idk how to feel about her E either way.

GGLineaRFeb 5, 20184 votes

Why is Jhin in there...?

ReformedfindlayFeb 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why is Jhin in there...?

I specifically mentioned crit build jhin. You know the one who goes sanic after every auto and crits for 2K or something?

GGLineaRFeb 5, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I specifically mentioned crit build jhin. You know the one who goes sanic after every auto and crits for 2K or something?

He deals less damage on his crits, the only way he's dealing 2k crits is if you have like, no health at all and are dumb enough to let him walk up to you and land his 4th shot.

All the other adcs mentioned can just walk at you and shred you in a half second. Jhin can't really do that unless you're already near death.

He's not a hyper carry.

Spank the FoxFeb 5, 20182 votes

Except nothing about Trist makes her a hypercarry beyond her steriod (which is somewhat offset by her sad base ATS + growth)

Weak AoE, no damage steriod, just good range and questionable attack speed outside of Rapid Fire.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 5, 201831 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHPhnnEL,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-05T04:45:20.033+0000)

Except nothing about Trist makes her a hypercarry beyond her steriod (which is somewhat offset by her sad base ATS + growth)

Weak AoE, no damage steriod, just good range and questionable attack speed outside of Rapid Fire.

Garbage post, here's why.

#1 Yes, tristana's attack speed growth isn't all that great, but her base AS still contends with some of the better ones out there.

#2 her Q is a 110% attack speed steroid on demand, no other ADC has an on demand AS steroid that strong. Jinx's max steroid with minigun is 130% but it's not on demand as she needs to stack it and her passive is certainly not on demand since it requires that someone dies or a tower falls. Kogmaw's passive AS bonus from Q is pretty shit, maxing out at 35% and being the only AS steroid he has. Twitch's stealth AS steroid is 50%.

#3 tristana has weak AoE? Am I hearing that right? Her E is fucking dedicated to AoE, the active AND the passive. Many ADCs don't even have a shred of innate AoE in their kits.

#4 an AS steroid plays the exact same role as a damage steroid, as both increase DPS. Few ADCs have the ability to up their AS and AD at the same time (the few that can have been problematic like twitch).

#5 "JUST GOOD RANGE" HOLY FUCKING SHIT LOL. She literally begins to outrange caitlyn at around level 13 IIRC. And unlike twitch and kogmaw and jinx, she doesn't have to do anything, it's a permanent passive with no trade-off or downtime.

#6 "questionable attack speed OUTSIDE OF RAPID FIRE" Yeah, after 7 seconds when one of the teams is fucking dead, her attack speed becomes questionable again.

MohawkBirdFeb 5, 201820 votes

[deleted]

chipndip1Feb 5, 201816 votes

{quoted}

I agree with your points but I don't think the perma-bold and big font was necessary lol.

Sometimes you really have to let people know that they aren't smart. That's all it is.

ArakadiaFeb 5, 20185 votes

Its really that important to tell someone that they're stupid?

chipndip1Feb 5, 201813 votes

{quoted}

Its really that important to tell someone that they're stupid?

It isn't important, but sometimes it's really damn satisfying.

Dark NephthysFeb 5, 20182 votes

Her Q steroid might be high but she has terrible base attack speed and attack speed per level to make up for it. Also you forgot to mention when comparing her to Vayne , Tristana can't shred tanks as effectively as Vayne who does % Max HP True Damage which is basically impossible to build against besides for debuff type defensive items like item 3110 item 3143 which don't help all the time against her.

Tychusfindlay918Feb 5, 201818 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHPhnnEL,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-02-05T05:16:24.280+0000)

Her Q steroid might be high but she has terrible base attack speed and attack speed per level to make up for it. Also you forgot to mention when comparing her to , Tristana can't shred tanks as effectively as Vayne who does % Max HP True Damage which is basically impossible to build against besides for debuff type defensive items like which don't help all the time against her.

"Terrible base attack speed"

Wrong, her base is actually pretty good

Her scaling is bad, but the Q more than makes up for it as one of if not the STRONGEST ON DEMAND attack speed steroid.

Yes, on demand, no strings attached. The millisecond she presses Q her AS issues fly out the window for 7 seconds.

Her incredible safety also guarantees her ability to go zerkers every game whereas many adcs have to default on going for defensive boots.

KaìjuFeb 5, 20183 votes

To be fair to Tristana, her Q is also an incredibly long cooldown going from 20 seconds to 16. By comparison, Miss Fortunes W is on a 12 second cooldown and lowers each time she procs her passive, and that's 100% attack speed, only 10% less while having higher attack speed per level.

HurriKayn RhaastFeb 5, 20188 votes

Miss Fortune's W is not a 900 unit resetting dash with a pretty potent slow attached (for some godforsaken reason) that ensures that, should she be able to hit lvl 2 first, she can press that advantage harder than any ADC not named Lucian. And her pushing for lvl 2 never happens with her E passive, now does it?

KaìjuFeb 5, 20187 votes

I didn't compare her W to W, I compared attack steroid to attack steroid, context.

It Hertz When IPFeb 5, 20186 votes

I think the context is actually relevant. MF has exactly one get out of jail free card, and that's Strut, which isn't even that great of a mobility power. To make it more useful, Riot gave it a lower cooldown. MF is also one of those ADCs that likes to build more Lethality/AD, which means that she doesn't get as much usefulness out of AS as Tristana does.

CrystalyskFeb 5, 201810 votes

The difference is: Miss Fortune isn't an hyper carry, in a team fight she probably can't make much use of her passive, the buff only lasts for 4 seconds. How is this even close to Tristana's Q?

The Minion huntFeb 5, 20186 votes

most of vayne's damage is not true damage.

Dark NephthysFeb 5, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pHPhnnEL,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2018-02-05T06:54:47.840+0000)

most of vayne's damage is not true damage.

that's true but the fact that she does strong true damage (% hp as well) means its much harder to build against her. Against Trist, once you get 1-2 full armor items + Tabi then you'll be some what ok but nothing compared to Vayne especially when she grabs item 3153 which Trist usually doesn't get unless its a really tanky team and she feels she needs more life steal.

It Hertz When IPFeb 5, 20185 votes

I don't have it here, but a lot of people have done the math, and others have taken screenshots of post-game stats. Even against a team with multiple bruisers/tanks, Vayne's true damage output is STILL less than a quarter of her overall damage. Vayne is overtuned, yes, but the issue's with her Tumble burst and ult stealthing/steroid.

lolipopevelynnFeb 5, 20181 votes

ALL adc`s are cancer when strong, not just hyper carries.

ReformedfindlayFeb 5, 20186 votes

{quoted}

ALL adc`s are cancer when strong, not just hyper carries.

Never in my life have i felt that dying to jhin was pure bullshit

MadCast VoShayFeb 5, 20181 votes

At the end of the day, 'best self-peeling hyper carry' is going to be a true statement for one champion. Best is a relative assessment, not an objective one. No matter how many people you nerf, someone will be that. Even if you nerfed every marksman until they were unplayable, one of them would be that. They just wouldn't be worth playing.