Just pointing out a MASSIVE PROBLEM with botlane supports
The healing of Relic shield negates poke too hard, LITERALLY 15 TIMES TOO HARD
Buff the damn spellthiefs lineup, it's hard enough being a AP support in todays the last 2 years of meta
Jamaree9 votesSo we just going to ignore the fact that it can't be used offensively, the procs come up slower then the spell thiefs, AND that it is only useful on melees for anyone not gold and above who know how to coordinate with their ADC? Just going to ignore all that? Ok.
RedCyclone1 votesby that logic, all heals in the game should be 15 times more potent, because you can't use them offensivly
Heals are strong, and for that reason we saw a sustain holocaust in season 1 and Riot kept their word Except for this one fucking item, that overpowers all poke supports and removes that weakness for all tank supports, at level 1...
Miraweave4 votesby that logic, all heals in the game should be 15 times more potent, because you can't use them offensivly
Heals are strong, and for that reason we saw a sustain holocaust in season 1 and Riot kept their word Except for this one fucking item, that overpowers all poke supports and removes that weakness for all tank supports, at level 1...
That's not true, though. Spellthief is a very good item. It's actually the best gold generating item supports can get.
Spellthief isn't even remotely underpowered. What it builds into is.
RedCyclone1 votesI'm not calling the item a complete failure, the money it generates is great and I wont deny that
But is 5 extra true damage every 10 seconds really that amazing?
Miraweave4 votesI'm not calling the item a complete failure, the money it generates is great and I wont deny that
But is 5 extra true damage every 10 seconds really that amazing?
If you're harassing, it is. Hell spellthief is the reason morg's W damage got nerfed.
Assume you try to autoattack an enemy laner roughly every ten seconds, which is totally reasonable. Boom, spellthief passive is worth 5 AD, which is worth 180 gold.
Only Fish5 votesby that logic, all heals in the game should be 15 times more potent, because you can't use them offensivly
Heals are strong, and for that reason we saw a sustain holocaust in season 1 and Riot kept their word Except for this one fucking item, that overpowers all poke supports and removes that weakness for all tank supports, at level 1...
You...you can't be serious right? Just poke them down at level 1 a bit more then, most melee supports don't have a means of getting onto you at level one. Besides, spellthieves comes up quite a bit more often than targons does. Add to that the fact that it can be used on towers as well, while targons can't.
RedCyclone1 votesRelic shield has an impact, Spellthief's Edge does not The heal that comes from RS is great, the damage that comes from Spellthief's Edge is so small, you may as well not be dealing extra damage
this is my point
Miraweave4 votesRelic shield has an impact, Spellthief's Edge does not The heal that comes from RS is great, the damage that comes from Spellthief's Edge is so small, you may as well not be dealing extra damage
this is my point
If relic shield only healed enough to negate the damage from spellthiefs it'd be totally meaningless.
Spellthief's has a pretty significant impact. The fact that you don't notice it is your problem. Adding 15 damage to Sona's level one Q + Auto is huge. Adding 30 with frostfang is also huge.
And spellthief is still the best in terms of gold generation by a long shot.
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Alexander Keith,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGsQX4W3,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T02:42:52.497+0000)
If relic shield only healed enough to negate the damage from spellthiefs it'd be totally meaningless.
Spellthief's has a pretty significant impact. The fact that you don't notice it is your problem. Adding 15 damage to Sona's level one Q + Auto is huge. Adding 30 with frostfang is also huge.
And spellthief is still the best in terms of gold generation by a long shot.
spellthief only adds 10 magic damage and Sona's great and all powerful lvl 1 damage is 18+40+20+10 magic damage + auto... so she does 88 magic damage, that gets reduced by your 30 starting MR plus whatever an auto will do at lvl 1. Unless she build pure AP runes and whatnot and even then you can just add at most another 30~45 extra magic damage that once again will get reduced by your starting MR.
Spellthief is the best in terms of gold generation while the laning phase starts and only if you are able to constantly poke the enemy. The instant you cannot poke the enemy safely or the laning phase ends then 
this line of items will give you more gold since you only need to be near a minion dying to get the gold without needing to put yourself in danger
Miraweave1 votesspellthief only adds 10 magic damage and Sona's great and all powerful lvl 1 damage is 18+40+20+10 magic damage + auto... so she does 88 magic damage, that gets reduced by your 30 starting MR plus whatever an auto will do at lvl 1. Unless she build pure AP runes and whatnot and even then you can just add at most another 30~45 extra magic damage that once again will get reduced by your starting MR.
Spellthief is the best in terms of gold generation while the laning phase starts and only if you are able to constantly poke the enemy. The instant you cannot poke the enemy safely or the laning phase ends then
Actually it adds 15. Sona's empowered autoattack procs it twice for some reason.
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Alexander Keith,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGsQX4W3,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T02:59:40.321+0000)
Actually it adds 15. Sona's empowered autoattack procs it twice for some reason.
then you add 10 more damage...if it procs twice it means it's 20 magic damage that is being proc from spellthief and not 15. That still doesn't make Sona's lvl 1 poke damage deal that much damage. Unless you don't have any sort of defensive runes or any sort of anything
Miraweave3 votesthen you add 10 more damage...if it procs twice it means it's 20 magic damage that is being proc from spellthief and not 15. That still doesn't make Sona's lvl 1 poke damage deal that much damage. Unless you don't have any sort of defensive runes or any sort of anything
Oh wait yeah I was thinking of gold. Her level one Q + AA gains 30 damage from spellthief. 30 damage is a huge amount at level one. Like, she can easily hit the enemy carry for a third of their health if she has her passive charged.
ZephyrDrake1 votes[{quoted}](name=Alexander Keith,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGsQX4W3,comment-id=000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-17T03:04:59.445+0000)
Oh wait yeah I was thinking of gold. Her level one Q + AA gains 30 damage from spellthief. 30 damage is a huge amount at level one. Like, she can easily hit the enemy carry for a third of their health if she has her passive charged.
i main Sona and have faced against so many Sona's and neither i nor any of the Sona's i have faced deal 1/3 of my nor my ADCs health at lvl 1 and i don't play tanky supports. The most i have seen one do is 1/4th of my health and i just naturally healed it back up before she ever managed to hit me again since i would always just launch a poke of my own to her and since she heavily prioritized AP runes and whatnot she had significantly less HP and resistances at lvl 1
Edge of Daybreak1 votesby that logic, all heals in the game should be 15 times more potent, because you can't use them offensivly
Heals are strong, and for that reason we saw a sustain holocaust in season 1 and Riot kept their word Except for this one fucking item, that overpowers all poke supports and removes that weakness for all tank supports, at level 1...
But when we try to say that sona hitting two people for 40 damage is fine the sona QQer's pretend that it doesnt. Oh and the best argument. W doesnt always heal both of you. Well guess what neither does targons. man the hypocrisy is so ridiculous its no wonder sona never gets anything. She needs a new forum support group
Crett9 votesYou're not dealing damage with only Spellthief's edge. If Spellthief's edge dealt 160 damage at level 1 that'd be nuts
RedCyclone1 votesbut healing 160 hp is fine, completely negating an entire support sub class?
Not asking for Spellthief's Edge to be dealing 160 damage, but idealy I would be nice for Riot to look into these items, because it's quite obvious that Spellthief's Edge line is too weak, while Relic shield line is just too good
Crett2 votesbut healing 160 hp is fine, completely negating an entire support sub class?
Not asking for Spellthief's Edge to be dealing 160 damage, but idealy I would be nice for Riot to look into these items, because it's quite obvious that Spellthief's Edge line is too weak, while Relic shield line is just too good
it actually only heals 120 with 3 procs. considering it heals both champs, tho, it's 240
they're still defining poke supports, i think. they need help, but they have to be careful about making poke too strong.
aaronautumn7 votesyou're overstating just how much sustain relic shield really gives. it gains 1 charge every 60 seconds. that's 80 health every minute, or more accurately 40 health to each individual involved. that's equivalent to the lowest base attack damage in the game (orianna, whose base damage is 40). if you're playing a poke support, i sincerely hope you're doing more than just one autoattack every minute.
Aeolian Melodies1 votesyou're overstating just how much sustain relic shield really gives. it gains 1 charge every 60 seconds. that's 80 health every minute, or more accurately 40 health to each individual involved. that's equivalent to the lowest base attack damage in the game (orianna, whose base damage is 40). if you're playing a poke support, i sincerely hope you're doing more than just one autoattack every minute.
let's disregards innate tankiness, pots, lifesteal, and hp regen.
relic shield gives sustain to champions that were never balanced around it.
AMYS GRAVE3 votesYou have pots too, and your adc has lifesteal too, and hp regen too, so all those even each other out.
Ok they have some armor which halves your AA damage. So you have to AA twice per minute instead of once. Oh no.
a4gPMwM96q3 votes160 hp is barely more than a health pot, and the cd on ONE charge is 60 seconds which translates to 80 health per minute. Thats practically nothing.
BakedLotion2 votesHow does relic heal 160? It heals 40 health each proc... And theres two procs.
RedCyclone2 votesto 2 champions (40x2)2 = 160
Only Play Darius2 votesBecause tank supports tend to take significant harass from mage supports, often unable to respond without initiating an all-in, which they need to be healthy for. Relic shield helps them out.
Aeolian Melodies1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGsQX4W3,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-08-17T03:47:59.264+0000)
Because tank supports tend to take significant harass from mage supports, often unable to respond without initiating an all-in, which they need to be healthy for. Relic shield helps them out.
I have no real problem with it healing the wearer. I have issues with it healing the ally as well.
bad manner kid2 votesSpellthief is fine because chances are, you're loading it with an AP rune page and your poke hurts anyways. The gold + free damage is just a bonus.
The problem is that the next two items don't really build on it's benefits, and are more or less a waste of gold spent.
Reaper Soraka1 votes...I thought Spellthief's did 10 damage per hit, and 15 damage per hit on Frostfang.
Edit: You can even mouse over it in the items tab right here on the forums when making a post.