This is a serious question. This item is absolutely absurd; it makes champs like Vayne and Graves basically unduelable and PD has, simply on it's own power, turned Yasuo into a top tier top laner. I main Yasuo and even I think PD Yasuo is stupid. I have a hard time justifying going Shiv even when I really ought to because PD is just that good. Hell, PD actually makes Aatrox a viable champion simply by existing.
NightmareAmazoX15 votes''PD actually makes Aatrox a viable champion simply by existing''
ROFL
TFBaam6 votesmains yas? opens match history, sees pd built on aatrox, no yasuo games, deletes thread about yas not being top tier, closes match history
DunkinNoobs4 votesmains yas? opens match history, sees pd built on aatrox, no yasuo games, deletes thread about yas not being top tier, closes match history
My main has like 400k mastery on Yasuo or something like that. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=slamurai+jack
Lafouboy4 votesIncrease the gold value by 50 and leave it alone. It's fine as-is for the most part.
Girard4 votesBuying an item and almost solely invalidating your enemy laner is fine?
Lafouboy4 votesWhat is Armor? What is Magic Resist?
Itemizing against an enemy has always been the name of the game (unless you are very confident in your ability to snowball). This item is a dueling item that gives some offense stats and some defense stats (against one target you've hit within the last 10 seconds). Against a gank, it'll only provide defense stats vs one person; along with the fact that the 12% DMG reduction is good, but not better than building purely defensive. Many champs can't afford to pour money into a defensive item, though, so this opens up a pseudo-defense item for the auto-attack based champs who also use attack speed and crit chance well (not many champs that'll be in a 1v1 lane).
Girard3 votesMy point is that it's not a healthy item in it's current state. You can buy armor and magic resist but phantom dancer (while being a defensive item) still gives decent offensive stats especially for it's main offenders (
+ 
) It's an Unhealthy item because you can buy it and **you will **win every trade in about 90% of matchups. Buying a full item like that and getting a permanent damage reduction against them just for hitting them once is unhealthy.
Lafouboy3 votesYou know what else gives you Damage Reduction? Armor and Magic Resist; with Health items allowing you to take more punishment (which Health items tend to have armor or magic resist).
And yes, unless your opponent can outplay you, the DUELING item you've purchased will make you much better at winning DUELS. It's not fool-proof nor OP, though. What you gain in dueling power you lose in other areas. Yasuo makes exceptional use of it, due to being an attack speed and crit based champion, but he is still losing out on certain things he could get by buying other items; such as AD and burst magic damage that clears waves (Shiv). Though of course Yasuo will abuse the item, he is an unhealthy champion with basic design flaws (double crit chance is a fun idea in theory, a nightmare to balance around). As for Vayne, the duelist ADC, she loses wave-clear hardcore by not taking shiv. It makes her a better duelist, but she pushes much slower. It's a trade-off. Do you want Shiv to push faster or do you want PD to become an even stronger duelist? I personally say she should stick to her specialty and pick up the PD, but others may have a different idea.
Nonetheless, there are many more champions that don't use the item as well as those two do and they lose a lot if they try to rush it. Tanks, for instance, will often demolish PD rushing duelists, as they can CC them when their jungler ganks (which the DR won't save them from the damage of two people). Also, PD doesn't give AD, which means that auto-attacking and hoping for crits is the best they will do, as their abilities plink off the enemy.
Is PD amazing? On certain champs. Is it OP? Not at all. Is it underpowered then? On certain champs. Does that make it a bad item? Not at all.
Just as with most things in LoL, the game is situational and you have to build according to the situation/where you want your power to go. Everything has its checks and counters, including OP items (which is very rare and I still don't think PD is OP on most champs, rather the champs that can abuse them are who are broken; maybe not OP broken, but broken nonetheless in one way or another) and champs.
Unlucky472 votesArmor barely does shit and we all know it. Any champion in the game can pick up 70% armor pen to throw out thousands of gold worth in itemization.
Lafouboy2 votes"Armor barely does shit" Yeah, totally. Tank meta was just a fluke.
Surfer Ashe1 votesWanna show me how to get 70% armor pen?
Considering LW upgrades only ignore 40% of BONUS armor, you may want to try again, or else I'd begin to think you're trolling.
SithesisLord1 votesLmao, no. 12% damage reduction in a VERY cheap item isn´t okay at all.
That passive alone is worth around 500 to 900 gold, at least, especially in its current state.
Doing more damage because crits while allowing you to take reduced damaged is stupid, hence why i always suggest to make the damage reduction scale with levels, and up its cost by 150 or even 350. That way, only champs who will benefit from it later on in the game, i.e. Vayne, can buy it and not be as oppressive.
It´s too effective in stats and passives for too low a cost.
PermabannedGaren4 votesDo you all know what 12% damage reduction amounts to?
Less than a cloth armour in damage reduction.
Against one person, you get a little less than 15 armour and MR against them. And it stacks with other resistances (base and bonus) just like building those would. So it literally has less effect against, say, Riven, than buying a cloth armour would, in terms of defense alone.
It's still definitely a good item because it combines that small defense with offensive power, but it isn't some hugely powerful effect like people seem to think it is. It is a dueling item, and it makes you better at dueling. What's the problem?
Dengeden2 votes12% can seem like a big number if you don't calculate what it actually does.
Teridax686 votesThis is calculating the damage reduction based on zero resistances, which will never realistically happen. Percent damage reduction multiplies effective health and scales with resists, so with just Yasuo's base resistances, it gives him the equivalent of 17 armor and MR, and with his usual build that can go up to the equivalent of about 34 armor and 27 MR. With a tanky build, those values go way up. 34 to 60 resists may not sound like much, but that's about 646 to 1166 gold's worth of stats, on an item whose base stats are already fairly efficient, that also happens to have another passive.
Gold value aside, though, I think the issue with Phantom Dancer isn't so much with its dueling power, but in the way its dueling power is implemented. It's an item designed for either marksmen or light fighters, i.e. mostly squishy champions, but that component to its dueling power is a pure defense buff: not only does this lead to abuse cases where some champions, such as Yasuo or Graves, can use it with tanky builds and get way too durable by having it multiply their defensive stats, but it also makes an entire subset of squishy champions tankier, which isn't all that healthy. If the item allowed the wielder to, say, gain massive movement speed when strafing around their targets, which would be especially appropriate on the champions meant to purchase it, that could work a lot better, instead the current implementation of the item's dueling power is making several champions a lot harder to balance than they need to be, while also running into clarity and power appreciation issues.
LatetotheRace2 votesIt turns close fights into distinct wins.
Glory ln Death1 votesKeep in mind - you can't penetrate damage reduction like you can armor and mr.
420 grams2 votesShiv for wave clear, pd for single target dps
Avienal2 votes[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pAx7U3TP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-16T00:18:03.082+0000)
Shiv for wave clear, pd for single target dps
Whenever i see a Vayne uses Shiv, its only when they want to not control the lane so the minions aren't equal or pushed up to their side so they can quickly snatch up ADC kills Even then since Zeal is the common build item its relatively easy to flexible build at times. But considering 
gives the highest attack speed of all 4 items basically the highest possible move speed between all 4 of them plus it has the 12% damage reduction against an opponent for 'dueling like situations', It makes sense you would rather want the item that can capitalize on Vayne's Passive bonus move and her Q enhance damage to delete a target's health bar in one shot, kill them in 2 shots or just plain keep them constantly backing back to base.
Getting CS is of course important but i've seen LoL shift too much as i jumped in and off it, to wanting to do things like early team fights thanks to plenty of champions like Vayne (thank god they lowered the impact of 'rewards' granted before level 6 in matches a while back), because when a champion only needs to use one ability to do large amounts of damage and it does not have something like high mana cost (even more f'd up if its mana cost doesn't rise per rank OR lowers per rank and its MANA, not Energy) or long cool downs to hold it back, they are gonna capitalize on it deal big damage indeed.
Very least a while back i kind of liked it when the attack speed and critical chance were equalized amongst all 4 items and it was mostly the small move speed difference and the utility effect they had that decided which one you wanted for a situation. These days Shiv is a poor choice, Runaan's can basically do the same thing for 'wave clear' but instead is better off on a champion who can capitalize a on'hit effect like 
, 
or 
for proper effect, bonus points since the autos get on hit bonus damage too, while 
is just more of a coupe de'grace second grab after to have high Critical chance, your opening auto will have insanely high damage and it lets you do said auto outside of the range of a number of champions who could have a chance to wrek you if they get close.
[slayer-jinx-catface]
RavenMagus2 votesShiv is the item of choice for anyone that wants to do anything.
Shiv's lightning proc can crit, which is increased by IE's crit damage increase too, so it does a significant amount more than RFC. RFC is basically trash because of that; it's only good at sieging (and even then you would probably rather have Shiv so you can help waveclear).
That's why everyone's building Shiv. It's basically the best item for anyone who doesn't want Hurricane first (and it's usually still built later on for them).
Avienal1 votesShiv is the item of choice for anyone that wants to do anything.
Shiv's lightning proc can crit, which is increased by IE's crit damage increase too, so it does a significant amount more than RFC. RFC is basically trash because of that; it's only good at sieging (and even then you would probably rather have Shiv so you can help waveclear).
That's why everyone's building Shiv. It's basically the best item for anyone who doesn't want Hurricane first (and it's usually still built later on for them).
Sadly the standard known as 
seems to be falling into decline in favor of 
for the sustain and conversion bonus of crit granting CD which champions like 
and i have seen some other crit type champions make use of too. With being the only exception because of 
Yasuo is back with super low Q CDs, high spam spellblade procs, mobility and can plain op for crits in the 2nd item to further that triple base damage spike spam even higher.
If a champion can already 'basically' one shot (with 1 or 2 abilities alongside itemization) a ADC opponent, their support and the jungler with ease, why pick up early when you can opp for for the sustain power on crits to hyper carry a game, constantly keep instant snowballing the opponents and get fed enough to get as your 4th crit item if you want to get silly with auto crits if the match is not over yet.
MunchCrunchLunch1 voteswho cares when you have that much attack speed and crit. yasuo doesn't care about shiv waveclear his waveclear is decent with 3rd Q and E. or graves
XinCrin2 votesI also think that 
is also really op and should be looked at as well.
AirKingNeo2 votesAny percent damage reduction item is absurd.
Saianna2 votesWhen will people learn that whole point of ADC items IS to be OVERPOWERED.
They HAVE TO shine cause Riot decided to enforce every goddamn meta since season 2 with them as VIPs.
If PD will be somehow nerfed, then expect other OP item exclusively for ADC in the same patch.
Abandon2 votesI agree, let's bring back good ol' ignore unit collision PD :) To be honest I preferred the old one more.
Troll for Trump2 votesCrit in general is wonky(always has been). The most problematic items are 
and being too efficient.
It's always the same, with ADCs abusing the "efficient" items.
->
->
The Youmuus/Cleaver was an anomaly of ADCs abusing items for other classes, but Crit has always been around for ADCs. The crit system needs a rework (even Riot admitted it, though it would be a largescale overhaul).
The flaws of crit are most evident in 
Marcshark2 votes
I'll just leave these here for all you salty tank mains bitching about PD.
DunkinNoobs1 votesGet those on Yasuo with your PD to be truly unduelable. Also try reading the OP.
Marcshark2 votesDon't mind me just a salty ADC main......[slayer-jinx-catface]
CasterGilgamesh1 voteswell the reason is this in the game as its one of the few defensive options an adc has since every single person is trying to kill them on yasuo its stupid because yasuo only needs to build two items and he gets 100% crit chance lol which saves him item space to get damage items and be hard to kill since he can spring for another defensive item
RavenMagus1 votesIt's just too cheap.
All of the zeal items are too cheap with how much high powered scaling they give most of the champions that buy them.
The problem with Yasuo isn't that he has a huge 1 item power spike; it's that he has a huge 1 item power spike that costs less than pretty much any other major item.
JustMonika131 votesI've been saying PD is ridiculous since people started bitching about Tank Yasuo and been downvoted. And you get upvoted.
I'm just a dirty Yasuo main tho. What the fuck do I know?
Dengeden1 votesPiglet would like a word with you for false advertising.
Tempesttwo1 votesTo be fair about the dueling part. Vayne is the dueling champ. She should be duelable, but it shouldn't be easy to outplay her.
DunkinNoobs1 votesShe was just fine as a duelist without PD. With PD? Pretty much impossible as any melee champion.
Off Meta Evan1 votesshit like this i think riot should honestly just give up on trying to balance out defensive/damage hybrid items and make them really only viable when the enemy team is literally only one type of damage source. For the past few seasons every time i've seen them try to make an item that gives both, it comes out either garbo, or god tier. old 
, 
on graves, the dreaded 
meta, AGAIN back when the pen builds were really strong, 
on mages a few patches ago, on release (granted this one i actually think they balanced out nicely and i think its current state is fine but still tho.) and now PD, items that give defense/utility and damage are pretty much ALWAYS going to be a pain to balance out. i think focusing on pure offensive builds on carry champions and making that the most viable builds would make the game a lot more healthy imo. allowing carries to build defensively means you can make more mistakes and fuck up a lot more, having a purely damage build means you just have to use your champions kit to its fullest and not fuck up.
DunkinNoobs1 votesI don't have a problem with hybrid offensive/defensive items in principle. I have a problem with PD because not only does it give damage reduction to reduce your damage taken, but it also gives a huge MS boost to help avoid damage altogether. It also gives quite good offensive stats as well as a low cost. That's what makes it such a busted dueling item: You get it before other champs finish their first item, gives enough damage to make you a threat without needing supporting items, and gives you both the damage reduction and mobility to outduel, outplay, or avoid pretty much any fight.
Off Meta Evan1 votesPD is pretty dumb right now but my point is that pretty much anytime riot changes/adds a new mixed item, its always super fucking jank.