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@Meddler Can you explain your stance on Irelia's E and your thoughts on it in regards to her rework?

WoonStruck··2 votes·6,312 views

I know some Rioters have said its not a great ability because it punishes you for doing well against her...but that's actually not the case at all.

Equilibrium Strike is an interesting ability that forces her to think about her engages if she wants to get that stun. Imagine if they didn't make it slow when you're higher %HP than the opponent; that it always stunned (which is what would have happened if it didn't have two halves). Despite her resets still being there and still being the most interesting part of her kit, she'd basically just be Xin with true damage as far as gameplay. She'd be engaging every time someone's in range, rather than having to add more risk by missing health or not meeting requirements for her best-case scenario, of which she currently has two: Her Q reset, and her E stun.

Just for laughs now, imagine that it slowed 100% of the time instead. She'd have to be an assassin for that to work, which is not a positive or interesting direction for her at all. Any other case she'd be completely and totally underwhelming.

Having to think about how to get to your opponent and achieve that stun in conjunction with her Q, and optimally its reset, is a large part of what people currently enjoy about her current gameplay. Adding more factors for tanks, bruisers, and juggernauts to think about before engaging is a clear way to make them more interesting and less frustrating to play against. Nobody likes being bowled over just because the other guy's stats were high enough.

That said, her E is not perfect by any means. There should be a threshold for the health difference, as even equal health counts as 'higher % health than Irelia' at the moment. Make it 10% difference and it would be much more fitting, thematically, and would also allow something else in her kit to be a tad more potent, as that 'equal hp' stun is a huge strength of her current laning.

I honestly think removing it as a part of her upcoming rework does her, her fans, and the entire League community a huge disservice. More tanky champions should have abilities that are relatively consistent, but not perfectly consistent such as this.

Keep in mind that, if you were to retain her E's effects, Equilibrium Strike does not need to remain her E ability. It could be moved to her R, even, as it has a huge impact for her when she gets it off as a part of an engage. It would be much more fitting as an ult than her current R's impact.

What do you think?

22 Comments

RiotMeddler7 votes

I don't think it's a great ability, in particular because it can be really unclear what result will happen before she uses it, leading to press the button and hope plays that can feel unfair (in a way you can't influence) to one player or the other. It's also an ability that, due to the way it can punish fighting back and its nature as a targeted spell, can leave opponents without apparent options.

Having said that though there are a lot of other champions/abilities I think we'd be much better off looking at first that need the work more. An Irelia rework someday's a definite possibility, think it's unlikely we'll do one this year though.

darkdill2 votes

What if it were changed to a skillshot ala Fiora's new Riposte? There, you can dodge it, which means that stun is acceptable.

hopeful41 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler3 votes

We've been experimenting with some possibilities over the last couple of weeks, including changing the 4th buff to something a bit more felt than minion/monster damage. Currently waiting to get some insight into how dragon's being valued in the start of the ranked season/first couple of weeks of professional play though to inform how big our changes should or shouldn't be.

Cosnirak2 votes

Glad you guys are paying attention to this. I didn't feel like making a thread about it and was pretty sure it was on your radar anyways but it's something I've thought about a bit recently. I think the 4th buff is long overdue for a change. Also would you consider a slight increase to the gold dragon gives, possibly doubling it to 50? 25 is barely more than a minion.

To me it's tempting to decrease the time between dragons spawning (and maybe baron too) but I'm not sure that's the best idea. I feel like the 'optimal' respawn times would be a very unclean number and probably just not be worth the change. If games do get even shorter though I recommend testing a 30 second change to their timers.

Crett1 votes

quietly whispering %bonus health

illegible murmuring %bonus armor and mr

kaltenashes1 votes

current irelia: better nerf irelia

possible new irelia: better buff irelia

Best KhaZix Void4 votes

Equillibrium strike is not nearly as interesting or thought provoking as you intend to make it out to be. It serves simply as a punishment for winning against her. Whatever thought you think is there doesn't actually exist because there isn't actually a trade off to both sides of the ability. it's either "use it" or "use it better" that's not a good choice by any stretch of the imagination.

WoonStruck2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best KhaZix Void,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozevk7xE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-19T23:45:20.867+0000)

Equillibrium strike is not nearly as interesting or thought provoking as you intend to make it out to be. It serves simply as a punishment for winning against her. Whatever thought you think is there doesn't actually exist because there isn't actually a trade off to both sides of the ability it's either "use it" or "use it better" that's not a good choice by any stretch of the imagination.

It doesn't punish you for winning against her. It makes it so she won't automatically win against you. If she could stun 100% of the time, she would just Q auto stun auto auto auto auto, which would be far more damage than she's capable of without a Q reset now. With Q resets, she'd be far, far more powerful.

The current design of her E makes her intentionally weaker. You aren't punished for winning in the slightest.

If you're definition of the 'use it' side of her ability were the standard and only option, she wouldn't function at all and it wouldn't ever be an effective ability unless she was winning, which would practically force her into damage oriented builds, which would make her less interesting in general.

Best KhaZix Void3 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't punish you for winning against her. It makes it so she won't automatically win against you. If she could stun 100% of the time, she would just Q auto stun auto auto auto auto, which would be far more damage than she's capable of without a Q reset now. With Q resets, she'd be far, far more powerful.

The current design of her E makes her intentionally weaker. You aren't punished for winning in the slightest.

Don't bullshit me. making the best case scenario for a champion the default is ofc gonna make it seem like the alternative (what we have now) is better.

OFC if it stunned 100% of the time it'd be broken, it stunning "half" the time (no irelia worth her salt would ever waste her E for the slow.) is already bullshit because it lets her salvage trades she should've lost, the ability needs to be scrapped or fundamentally changed (scrapped) for it to be a healthy design. better yet, give her a complete gameplay overhaul so we don't have to deal with the messy bruiser hodgepodge that she is right now, anymore.

Don't try to pass off her current E as necessary to her design. You're doing the equivalent of pissing on my shoes by pretending that's the case.

Her E wouldn't even be as obnoxious as it is if the rest of her kit wasn't a complete rectal hemorrhoid

WoonStruck2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best KhaZix Void,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozevk7xE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-19T23:51:56.880+0000)

Don't bullshit me. making the best case scenario for a champion the default is ofc gonna make it seem like the alternative (what we have now) is better.

OFC if it stunned 100% of the time it'd be broken, it stunning "half" the time (no irelia worth her salt would ever waste her E for the slow.) is already bullshit because it lets her salvage trades she should've lost, the ability needs to be scrapped or fundamentally changed (scrapped) for it to be a healthy design. better yet, give her a complete gameplay overhaul so we don't have to deal with the messy bruiser hodgepodge that she is right now, anymore.

Don't try to pass off her current E as necessary to her design. You're doing the equivalent of pissing on my shoes by pretending that's the case.

Her E wouldn't even be as obnoxious as it is if the rest of her kit wasn't a complete rectal hemorrhoid

It only lets you salvage trades you should have lost in lower brackets when people don't play things well. An Irelia that's losing isn't going to be saved by her E.

You should know by now that Irelia gets by with DPS, not primarily burst. Most champions are burstier than her. In most cases where she would have started winning with her E stun, she most likely would have started winning with her E slow as well unless you're a spell spam champ. An Irelia that's actually losing, or doesn't know they will win a trade, will be using E to disengage, not trade.

Her having hard CC isn't your problem. You falling for a trick over and over is your problem, from the sounds of it.

Adalore2 votes

Irelia... Oh Irelia.

Chances are if she gets reworked she would have two things would be emphasis at the expense of E.

Super dashes that reset...which would be far less horrible to fight if she couldn't use that to reach you and E you.

And a ranged ability that plays to the theme of floating blades.

I have played versus and played as the super tanky death machine that is a fed Irelia, where she can kill you nearly in two seconds and runs around intentionally with sub 100% health to CC you with E, it creates weird player behavior where she doesn't want the healing passive in her kit because she can't cc someone then. I am legit hoping that E gets nuked into whatever ranged ability that will hopefully enter her kit.

That E puts her into the terrible type of fighter that riot has stated they want to remove from the game, the Dash + CC + IMA KILL YOU fighters, which do one thing, keyroll and hope you die. Frequently once irelia gets ahead, she doesn't even CARE about the % condition, the target doesn't need to be stunned to die horribly to her. She is off and on one of the more oppressive damage top laners at the whim of the meta, with sheer stat checks.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Irelia... Oh Irelia.

Chances are if she gets reworked she would have two things would be emphasis at the expense of E.

Super dashes that reset...which would be far less horrible to fight if she couldn't use that to reach you and E you.

And a ranged ability that plays to the theme of floating blades.

I have played versus and played as the super tanky death machine that is a fed Irelia, where she can kill you nearly in two seconds and runs around intentionally with sub 100% health to CC you with E, it creates weird player behavior where she doesn't want the healing passive in her kit because she can't cc someone then. I am legit hoping that E gets nuked into whatever ranged ability that will hopefully enter her kit.

That E puts her into the terrible type of fighter that riot has stated they want to remove from the game, the Dash + CC + IMA KILL YOU fighters, which do one thing, keyroll and hope you die. Frequently once irelia gets ahead, she doesn't even CARE about the % condition, the target doesn't need to be stunned to die horribly to her. She is off and on one of the more oppressive damage top laners at the whim of the meta, with sheer stat checks.

Her E doesn't do that. Her W does that. Her W lets her build primarily tank stats and still do highly significant damage to ANYONE, including tanks.

Her W and her R are the biggest flaws in her kit. Her W encourages ball-of-stats gameplay because she seeks to just be tankier than you, since she'll still do damage. Her R is unsatisfying, even if it is potent. Its not something that's viewed as significant to a team, though.

Adalore2 votes

The only thing I want to keep on her is her Dash stuff, flying around the wave of minions to avoid skillshots just to fly back into the face of the enemy is what makes Irelia to me. I can see the entirety of the rest her kit being gutted and I won't shed a single half stacked tear.

WoonStruck2 votes

{quoted}

The only thing I want to keep on her is her Dash stuff, flying around the wave of minions to avoid skillshots just to fly back into the face of the enemy is what makes Irelia to me. I can see the entirety of the rest her kit being gutted and I won't shed a single half stacked tear.

I want her to retain some hard CC along with her Q, and E's concept is interesting enough to her gameplay that I want to keep it intact as that CC, even if it gets moved to her R.

Moments she gets her E stun off are defining for fights with her kit. E would fit better as her ult, potential-wise, than the current one.

All I think needs to go is her W, R, and passive. Q and E can be salvaged because they are interesting parts of her kit that create defining moments when well-used. There's plenty of thematic space to add to emphasize 'telekinetic blades' through her passive, W and R (or E if its effect gets moved to R). This would be best case to me, if the E effect gets moved to R.

No, E isn't used to win where she normally would have lost. E forces her to approach engaging on someone in a different manner than anyone else, because she wants to use that E when she engages.

Troiann2 votes

No, it's not interesting at all.

Is my enemy beating my in trades? I win anyways!

Is my enemy losing trades? Then I win!

That's the extent of Irelia's E.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

No, it's not interesting at all.

Is my enemy beating my in trades? I win anyways!

Is my enemy losing trades? Then I win!

That's the extent of Irelia's E.

The same could be said of anyone with instant CC. Hell, the same could be said of many champions in general. Irelia's E is far from being a problem. Maybe if you played her you'd realize its to inhibit the consistency of her engage potential, rather than make it so she does better when behind.

Any Irelia that's actually behind will not get saved by her E.

Thinking you're winning a fight because you're higher % hp against Irelia is like thinking you're winning a fight while you fail to notice their jungler coming. Its entirely fair. You've just fallen for it so many times that you think its not. Hell, you don't even have to ward in this circumstance. All the information is right there. Yes, Riot needs to adjust it so she has to be at least a certain amount below them that isn't just 'equal or below,' but the concept of the ability is not unfair in the slightest.

You don't have to all-in someone to beat them. If you start out-trading them, continue to out-trade them in the same way. Don't all-in in hopes of a kill. If you force them to back, you basically win. If they stay to farm under tower, dive them with your jungler; there's nothing she can do against 2 targets.

Troiann3 votes

Yes.

Point and click spells by nature are not interesting. Not always OP, but not interesting and pretty annoying to deal with.

In Irelia's case it's a lose lose scenario. Ok, I don't have a problem with that. Riot doesn't need to remove it. But don't give me the bullshit that it's "interactive and enjoyable and meaningful that makes you think about using!" It's a point and click spell that has very little downsides. Simple as that.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Yes.

Point and click spells by nature are not interesting. Not always OP, but not interesting and pretty annoying to deal with.

In Irelia's case it's a lose lose scenario. Ok, I don't have a problem with that. Riot doesn't need to remove it. But don't give me the bullshit that it's "interactive and enjoyable and meaningful that makes you think about using!" It's a point and click spell that has very little downsides. Simple as that.

So one single point-and-click ability being less consistent than "just use it for maximum effect" makes it less interesting than others? I'd have to say, in almost all outlooks of the subject, it manages to make the ability more interesting than other point-and-clicks. Especially of the melee variety.

There's almost no case that its a lose-lose. Again, it doesn't punish you for being ahead of her. You blindly engaging like what you're implying is essentially a gamble, which should normally cause you to lose in any moba/RTS.

Calling it a lose-lose in the way you are is the same as calling any ability being used on you a lose-lose, since having something used on you is something you generally want to avoid.

Being at a disadvantage for engaging on someone isn't a bad thing in the slightest. You engage on Ahri, you're asking to eat her burst and most likely do less than 25% of her HP and she's long gone before you can do anything about it. You have to think about how you engage on one melee champion, so it becomes a problem? Is that it? Jax's E almost functions the same way, effectively, and I don't see you calling Counterstrike bullshit. Any decent Jax uses his E under the same circumstances Irelia would.

Keep in mind that Irelia can't blindly engage on anyone in most circumstances solely due to her E. What DOES allow her to blindly engage on people is the stat-ball nature that completely and 100% enabled solely by her W, which allows her to build tanky and still do damage.

Nobody can ever, EVER engage blindly as her early game, nor can they late. They get melted for it without accomplishing anything. However, mid-game she can, and that's entirely due to the tankiness and damage she has. Why? Because of her W. Only her W.

So tell me where the bullshit really is.

Protokai1 votes

wait they are reworking irelia ? were did they say dis?

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

wait they are reworking irelia ? were did they say dis?

Its something they want to do, but there's no set date, and far, far in the future, as many champions need a rework much, much more. Similar to Warwick update, but even further away.

Protokai2 votes

okay i dont have to re learn her anytime soon then good to know

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