i.e. Udyr and Shaco.
It's really shitty when you don't get a level 3 kill to expedite your Tiamat, to the point that you can easily fall behind for the remainder of the game, because you're unable to clear half of the camps without sacrificing 50% of your health and most of your mana.
Aatrox Mid 1v54 votesJust remove 0.25 seconds from their Rs and they'll be fine
Need Gold 4 Tent4 votesif you're going tiger on udyr, that's the trade-off. Sometimes I do QRWE before ganking, because that early point in R (+ talisman) allows you to do chickens and wolves and remain quite healthy. However, that also means you need to do a full clear before you can gank. With that single point and R, you don't need tiamat anymore. Shaco is a different story though, I don't play him.
Yenn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ovWHPwj4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-10T06:01:46.395+0000)
if you're going tiger on udyr, that's the trade-off. Sometimes I do QRWE before ganking, because that early point in R (+ talisman) allows you to do chickens and wolves and remain quite healthy. However, that also means you need to do a full clear before you can gank. With that single point and R, you don't need tiamat anymore. Shaco is a different story though, I don't play him.
At higher ratings, you need to be able to gank or counter-gank at level 3. Putting a point in Phoenix is not a viable option, and it's only useful on the first clear; you still suffer the same problem on later clears.
[{quoted}](name=free software,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ovWHPwj4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-02-10T05:24:58.863+0000)
Just remove 0.25 seconds from their Rs and they'll be fine
You don't take R on Udyr. Shaco has nothing. Also as noted, Warwick also suffers from this.
Need Gold 4 Tent4 votesAt higher ratings, you need to be able to gank or counter-gank at level 3. Putting a point in Phoenix is not a viable option, and it's only useful on the first clear; you still suffer the same problem on later clears.
You don't take R on Udyr. Shaco has nothing. Also as noted, Warwick also suffers from this.
R on Udyr is perfectly fine, Trick even does R max in jungle. Q max has the trade-off for being weaker at clears in exchange for duelling + ganking. Post first clear with some items, clearing shouldn't be a problem anymore (especially if you alternate Q into R for the aoe burn and healing from nail passive, and W for damage reduction and more sustain).
Basically, proc Q on big creep, R to burn small creeps, if possible aim the proc to hit all the creeps too but the aoe burn is pretty good on its own. W when needed. The point of R is not to actually damage the camps direcltly, it's more to proc your nail passive on the jungle item on the small camps.
Yenn2 votes[{quoted}](name=Need Gold 4 Tent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ovWHPwj4,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-02-10T07:17:51.140+0000)
R on Udyr is perfectly fine, Trick even does R max in jungle. Q max has the trade-off for being weaker at clears in exchange for duelling + ganking. Post first clear with some items, clearing shouldn't be a problem anymore (especially if you alternate Q into R for the aoe burn and healing from nail passive, and W for damage reduction and more sustain).
Basically, proc Q on big creep, R to burn small creeps, if possible aim the proc to hit all the creeps too but the aoe burn is pretty good on its own. W when needed. The point of R is not to actually damage the camps direcltly, it's more to proc your nail passive on the jungle item on the small camps.
Trick has sub-50% win rate with Udyr on his first account, his second account is majority duo games with a Master player. He can do whatever dumb shit he wants when he's stomping Platinum players with a duo queue.
Even then, he still builds Hydra in most of his games.
321501 votesThe 0.25 seconds is a meme bevause of the zoe nerfs. Not meant to be taken serious
Iręlía1 votesWelcome to 
's world. I'd MUCH rather dive right into BotrK or Trinity.
Salson1 votesMan, both of those champs need reworks.
Though I'd much rather have a easily clearable Jungle and less cancerous ganking.
Charzar1 votesAs a Shaco main I've never ever had trouble with mana or health. Maybe it's because of my play style or my boxes, but I'm usually fine.
naveenrenold1 voteswhen playing shaco not able to get tiamat very early is an inconvinience but its not too bad.u get it after second clear
Yenn1 votesReminder that this still feels terrible, and puts jungles who have to do this at a disadvantage to those who have viable built in clear.