Remove the lethality from EoN, undo the CD buff, price remains the same.

Eedat·Feb 22, 2017·36 votes·2,360 views

Problem solved.

It's stat efficiency would change from 99% to 89% from stats alone which puts it more in line with something like Zhonyas (92% from stats alone)

EoN becomes the situational niche item it was intended as for assassins and melee fighters that are instantly getting chain CCed instead of another stat stick that makes engaging on ranged champions impossible and stacking more lethality

This seems like a fair solution.

42 Comments

The Yetii RiderFeb 22, 201710 votes

We need three lethality items though. Lethality is intended to be a stacking scaling stat for AD assassins to build. This change nerfs them for no reason except that ADCs are using their item. I didn't like it when that happened to Steraks Gage. Don't do it to Edge of Night.

UltîmaFeb 23, 20172 votes

Agreed, but Edge of Night needs to be changed. The current shield active isn't an outplay tool; it's a predictive self-buff. It should be changed to be something more like Zhonyas; an instant effect short window of active time to turn a play around (with the possibility of failing spectacularly).

Imo, with the loss of item 3071 as a viable item on ADCs and Assassins, item 3814 should be changed to;

item 3134 + item 3133

+10% cooldown reduction +60 attack damage

Passive +15 Lethality ~~+20 movement speed out-of-combat~~ : Because Edge of Night is meant to be a defensive purchase, less emphasis should be placed on the OOC movement speed in favour of the important active. This will force assassins to think about the intended strength of the item, rather than build it because it gives them everything they need.

Active Gain a Black shield that blocks all enemy cc within the next 1.00 seconds (90 second cooldown) : _This gives the user the equivalent of a Morgana Blackshield for the duration. The cooldown is greatly increased to compensate for the power of the active, which also has a very brief window of activity. The timing should be like a Fiora riposte or Sivir spellshield - something that allows the player to read and predict their enemy's key ability to nullify it's intended effect without getting rid of the damage (so you can't just facetank an ultimate). I think a change along those lines will solidify EoN as an outplay tool rather than the state it is in now. _

Other ideas could be item 3134 + item 3140 + and simply change the active shield to a straight-forward cleanse, like that EoN maintains a good amount of MR + Lethality, but has a more balanceable active with an existing mechanic.

The Yetii RiderFeb 23, 20171 votes

It's intended to be a defensive tool though. Taking away the MR will leave assassins with fewer options to build while behind. The recipe offers no defensive stats in its build path, which is a huge problem, and Maw of Malmortius is intended for fighters.

Removing the MR from Edge of Night forces assassins to build Hexdrinker, which defeats the purpose of changing the item to be less useful to assassins in the first place.

UltîmaFeb 23, 20171 votes

Maybe I'm a little crazy for thinking this, but I think item 3156 became a huge problem when it had Lethality because Assassins could reliably out-trade mages due to the combination of peneatrion, MR and the passive. Edge of Night just recreates that problem with an active that has way more uptime and consistency. Furthermore, is still a good item for assassins who really need the defensive steroid. EoN will need to relinquish some of it's AD or defensive power to become balanced, otherwise it will always be purchased every game regardless of enemy team composition.

The Yetii RiderFeb 23, 20171 votes

{quoted} Furthermore, is still a good item for assassins who really need the defensive steroid.

That's not the fucking point. The point of creating item 3814 was to give assassins their own defensive item. You don't balance things by saying "oh, this class can use other classes' items so that's good enough." That's why we had the assassin item update in the first place.

Assassins need their own items so that they can be balanced around what they are expected to build and their scalings and base damages can be tuned around those specific items, as a group. The balance team should be striving for every AD assassin to want the assassin items more than they want others, and that's part of the reason Black Cleaver is being changed. We need Edge of Night to be good enough for it to be purchased, so that we can balance Zed, Kha'Zix, Rengar and Talon around them having the item by a certain point in the game, and not by them having Hexdrinker at a certain point in the game.

And yes, if it is purchased every game regardless of team composition, that's a good thing. In fact, most champions have a very static build path that rarely changes based on the enemy team composition, at least if those champions are largely offensive in nature.

UltîmaFeb 23, 20171 votes

I think you missed the part where I didn't say anything about deleting item 3814 , making it unviable OR a solid defensive purchase. Fuck me for saying an item should be balanced, I guess?

Making it invariably better than item 3156 on AD-scaling champions, in almost all scenarios, is a reckless train of thought. That's like saying item 3157 should be purchased every game by mages regardless of the enemy team composition. It doesn't make sense.

The Yetii RiderFeb 23, 20171 votes

The hotfix should lower its AD by 5, which will hopefully make it less spikey, the active duration is halved and the item's CD is longer. Hopefully Edge of Night will be less powerful while still being purchased in every game regardless of team composition.

Snowman ArcFeb 23, 20171 votes

1 second black shield seems even more op, especially late game. For many champions, 1 second is all it takes to get set up, like Riven can move in disregarding all CC and just knockup - stun everyone and follow up on damage.

UltîmaFeb 23, 20171 votes

EoN should be impactful though, and offer an AD-assassin play-making ability similar to Zhonyas. Maybe the active time could be reduced to 0.75 seconds, and the cooldown increased to 120 seconds.

The point is; the current version of EoN isn't an outplay tool; it's a free banshee's veil every 30 seconds. It's not fun to use, and it's not fun to play against. On the other hand, an item with a very powerful but brief active would allow the enemy to bait the activation just as much as it would allow the assassin to make some really badass plays.

Variks the LoyalFeb 22, 20177 votes

Disagree.

Make it have a reduced benefit for ranged; IE, a longer CD and shorter duration if you're a ranged character.

Without the Lethality, it won't be worth building on an Assassin. It would also muck up the build path; no Lethality means no Serrated Dirk. If they made it a Caufield's, they'd need to shoehorn in CDR, and B.F. Sword would make it far too situational and odd to build.

Making it have a reduced benefit for ranged characters is all it needs.

BlåbæretFeb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Disagree.

Make it have a reduced benefit for ranged; IE, a longer CD and shorter duration if you're a ranged character.

Without the Lethality, it won't be worth building on an Assassin. It would also muck up the build path; no Lethality means no Serrated Dirk. If they made it a Caufield's, they'd need to shoehorn in CDR, and B.F. Sword would make it far too situational and odd to build.

Making it have a reduced benefit for ranged characters is all it needs.

It's a defensive and offensive item all in one. It needs a stat heavily reduced or removed to keep that active. Imo the active should be removed as it invalidates any attempt to engage or defend oneself from its user. It isn't just ranged abusing this item, assassins abuse it just as well. So saying that "ranged shouldn't be able to use it" doesn't solve the problem at all. The item in itself is overpowered regardless of who the user is.

Assassins were supposed to have more counterplay, how can you retaliate against someone with an on-demand spellshield for every engage? Answer: You can't.

DeathBot666Feb 22, 20172 votes

Play someone with 2 stuns?

Variks the LoyalFeb 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It's a defensive and offensive item all in one. It needs a stat heavily reduced or removed to keep that active. Imo the active should be removed as it invalidates any attempt to engage or defend oneself from its user. It isn't just ranged abusing this item, assassins abuse it just as well. So saying that "ranged shouldn't be able to use it" doesn't solve the problem at all. The item in itself is overpowered regardless of who the user is.

Assassins were supposed to have more counterplay, how can you retaliate against someone with an on-demand spellshield for every engage? Answer: You can't.

Conversely, not having an item like this removes all incentive for an Assassin to take risks and dive into a teamfight.

The active is meant to be used to grant the Assassin a bit of insurance when they leap into a fight. Break the shield with an ability of no consequence before going in with the hard CC.

It's overpowered on ranged because they sit at range with the spellshield, free to engage or harass from their range without fear. Even if they get caught by CC, it doesn't matter because the shield protects them.

An Assassin, meanwhile, can't just sit on the side of a fight with the shield up and expect to be fine. The Assassin needs to pop it when they're going in, or else it's wasted. They also lack the safety of range that makes EoN overpowered on ranged characters.

The item itself is fine in designed, if overtuned. Making a reduced benefit for ranged characters would be a very good stepping stone, so we can then see it in a vacuum on melee-Assassin characters and balance it from there.

DeathBot666Feb 22, 20171 votes

What about 2 pickax as the damage items? It does the same damage as a dirk but without the lethality.

Variks the LoyalFeb 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What about 2 pickax as the damage items? It does the same damage as a dirk but without the lethality.

Two Pickaxes = 1750g

Serrated Dirk = 1100g

Not at all equal. It also doesn't help that there's already 1 pickaxe in the recipe.

DeathBot666Feb 23, 20171 votes

No it would be 2 pickaxes and a null mantle in the recipe, rather than a pickax, a dirk, and a mantle. You would be replacing it with 1 ax, not 2. Both a dirk and an ax are 25 dmg, just dirk has more stats and ax costs less. I see where your confusion came from though.

CancerBasedGodFeb 22, 20174 votes

That actually does kind of make sense, and doesn't use blatantly false arguments. Congratulations, you are apparently the only one who can make an EoN thread without making a total jackass of yourself.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 22, 20171 votes

Give an example of an argument (about lethality items) that makes someone sound like a jackass. Anyone even contesting that the efficiency of lethality, in a snowball/early game meta, is underpowered is mistaken.

CancerBasedGodFeb 23, 20172 votes

Are you joking? Have you not seen the threads with falsified numbers. (such as one clamming all 5 lethality items could reduce 600 armor to only 100, it can not.) Have you not seen the threads where they cry for it to be melee only?

NodirjonSattarovFeb 23, 20171 votes

There aren't 5 lethality items but I'm sure you meant penetration items. Did you do the math yourself for different results?

CancerBasedGodFeb 23, 20171 votes

Assuming 80 base and 520 bonus armor, black cleaver and LDM reduces 600 armor to 256.2. The max lethality is 82.5. 600 armor would reduce to 173.7. Not 100.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 23, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oppUZIEl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-22T18:57:01.680+0000)

Give an example of an argument (about lethality items) that makes someone sound like a jackass. Anyone even contesting that the efficiency of lethality, in a snowball/early game meta, is underpowered is mistaken.

Go read some of the most upvoted threads. I've had multiple people reply to me with things like edge of night has no cooldown, makes you immune to all cc, is on demand even in combat, the argument that ez q pops banshees is used but when i claim that it pops edge people downvoted the hell out of me as if that's not true. The overwhelming majority of the arguments against edge are just hilariously stupid and im glad riot doesnt base changes on boards because of it.

VeraskaFeb 22, 20173 votes

Lethality is the Stat that assassin's want the most, removing it just makes it more universal (it doesn't hurt ranged abusers at all) you could just up the cooldown on the active to be more in line with banshee veils passive or zhonyas

TeemodanegroFeb 22, 20172 votes

Lower the activation time and lower the amount of AD on it, keep the lethality. Nerf Lethality effectiveness down to 50% again.

sobi999Feb 22, 20172 votes

Actually lethality is there for assassins whereas the spellshield is good for any champ. I'd say to make EON melee only and leave the other 2 as they are. This way assassins will have 3 lethality items to choose from whereas adc's will have 2. Lastly add lethality only in the last item of recipe for atleast 1 of the lethality item. That way it can't be abused so much early game. Although a small tweak to lethality like -5 to yoomu might still be necessary. Moreover the active of the EON needs a lower CD for god sake, idc if the price of the item is lowered. Assassins will not be hurt by lower CD than adc's will because assassins can just burst and use spellshield just before they dive onto enemy whereas adc's can't really do that.

The Yetii RiderFeb 23, 20171 votes

But we have ranged assassins. Vayne, Twitch, Quinn and Jhin are all assassins.

ForgiveColourFeb 23, 20172 votes

removing lethality

yeah why dont we remove the slow from rylais hmm i wonder

RexSaurFeb 23, 20172 votes

That would make it trash.

That would be like removing the ap or armor for hourglass.

EedatFeb 23, 20171 votes

We both know this but honestly I just dont feel like hearing people bitch about it for years straight. Eventually they'll bitch hard enough to get something more important nerfed because thats how Riot works.

"We heard armor pen is a problem. So we decided to remove BC from the game because logic"

ElishevaFeb 23, 20172 votes

"Oh no, a shield that goes away after I hit it once, wat am i do it am fritning." Same reason people dislike zyra, they hate having to deviate from their original plan of "hit this champion as few times as possible, killing it in the process, while taking no damage."

LauchmelderFeb 23, 20171 votes

No, people hate getting deleted by assassins in less than a second with literally 0 chance to fight against it.

Kha'Zix jumps on you with EoN active while you are Syndra. What will you do?

Here's what you will do: Die. Maybe deal some damage to him, but you'll die because you couldn't peel yourself.

ElishevaFeb 24, 20171 votes

Or you could be a better player, use wards, and knock him back, ult, and watch a bitch bug get squished.

LauchmelderFeb 24, 20171 votes

Or you COULD acknowledge that you can't use the knockback if he has EoN.

ElishevaFeb 24, 20171 votes

Typically a good syndra player uses their Q before their knockback, getting rid of EoN in the process, again, unless they don't ward. If they don't ward they deserve the death, it'll serve as a means to teach them about the value of vision.

LauchmelderFeb 24, 20171 votes

Get real. There is no way you can ward off every single route.

And ANY Syndra will Q/E because that's her basic combo. It just sucks if you have less than a second to react and then need to hit your skills PERFECTLY while all he did was pressing one button.

You're defending the same bullshit people complained about Syndra.

ElishevaFeb 24, 20171 votes

Whatever you say kiddo.

FTWolfFeb 23, 20172 votes

That's like saying make void staff only work on bonus 35% mr it would make mages trash. Assassins were complete trash before the lethality buffs.

Gallows madnessFeb 22, 20171 votes

so dad [slayer-pantheon-popcorn] Where is my nerfs at?

WolfBVFeb 23, 20171 votes

At least one thing is happening, Edge of Night had its codlin changed from 30 to 45 seconds on the PBE and the spell shield lasts 5 seconds instead of 10 along with 65 damage to 45 damage.

Snowman ArcFeb 23, 20171 votes

Nah, it would be worthless then. The spell shield wouldn't justify buying it, when you could get Maw in its place and be way tankier, while getting CD and pretty much the same AD.