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Veigar is not built around zone control: Why Veigar will never be as good as Viktor

Big Lincoln··30 votes·2,488 views

And until Riot realizes this, these changes are never going to let him be a strong pick again.

He doesn't have the kit for it, and nothing short of a larger scale rework (please god no) is going to change that. His kit was very delicately founded on the premise of "squishy, low-ranged caster with potent scaling and insane damage who relies on a stun to land his burst." He is not, and shouldn't be "medium-ranged caster who relies on trapping opponents to deal his damage."

For my best comparison, I'd probably have to look to someone who's much more well-designed to function in that facet -- Viktor and there's a few reasons why.

  1. His kit is DESIGNED around a strong zoning/burst mix. Viktor's kit naturally lends itself to being able to keep people far away from his threat radius thanks to... well, everything. Power Siphon allows him to kite mercilessly, Gravity Field gives him powerful crowd control, and Death Ray establishes him as someone who can nuke you from a distance and a powerful AoE threat. Veigar's... doesn't really do that, and even with his Q hitting two people (or being able to at least), it's still clear that he can only function as a single-target delete button.

  2. His zoning tool is miles better. Veigar's E was good because it was an instant stun. And it was instant for two reasons: firstly, it's a very odd ring that will only stop him from being torn apart from inside his "cage" if he manages to hit you with its edge; and second, he needs an instantaneous stun a LOT more than Viktor to survive. Viktor's kit is much more forgiving because he has both more immediate damage AND strong durability thanks to his shield, not to mention his speed boosts from Power Siphon to keep him able to maneuver around enemies.

  3. Viktor's role has already been defined for the reasons above; he has his niche. Veigar was established as a reliable burst mage who made up for his relatively poor stats, considerably short range, and constant vulnerability with a powerful stun and obscene damage to one person. This is the role at which he alone excelled at, and I could argue all night that Veigar was fine with it being instantaneous. In his current iteration, he isn't going to be strong without either overloading his simple kit or adding some actual, creative complexity to it that both fills the massive gap in power his kit has right now as well as lends him to his own special niche that nobody else can fill. There have been a lot of suggestions that were frankly fantastic in providing additional synergy with his cage to make it feel like an actual prison of magical torture and I would gladly accept the unreliability in exchange for a more fulfilling champion. The current changes on the PBE that let him combat (most of) the mobility creep is a good step in the right direction.

tl;dr give Veigar back his niche or push him to one similar, but don't try to change his identity to one that someone else already has

28 Comments

PhoenixSlayer138 votes

Here's the thing though...

Why even have the stupid ring if it's just used for an instant stun? It's just a oddly-shaped skillshot at that point. It's one of the things that's always confused me about Veigar.

Big Lincoln6 votes

I had a really big post all typed out for you, but I accidentally clicked back and this forum doesn't save posts, so instead of going through all that again, I'm just gonna try and tldr some more.

Riot should push him into the theme of "crazy psycho sorceror who can cage and obliterate you" and I think it could be done while maintaining a healthier, more modern design as well as giving him the satisfaction of being rewarded for good set up with E

his base stats should be bumped up a little, I feel. right now, he's simply too squishy for his lack of reliable damage, which, IMO, was the only justification for his squishiness. Just a small tuning to his health and mana would do the trick.

Q -- I'm okay with it as it is on the PBE currently. some extra bonus for throwing it through -- CC? pierces everyone hit instead of the first two? becomes a crazy ping-pong of death?

W -- put it on a charge system and remove its cast time, which in turn slightly shortens its delay. it now deals damage in a larger AoE, with a primary and secondary damage zone. people in the primary damage zone are possibly hit with a crippling slow and more damage than in the 2nd radius, but is a lot smaller than the secondary zone. when dropped into the zone, it could either fall twice as fast or stun instead of slow.

R -- Remove the enemy AP ratio from it because I feel it's a lot of unnecessary invisible power. In turn, bump it to 150% of his own AP to solidify it as the end-all, be-all, universal delete button, thus sealing his niche as the overkill nuker we all know and love. This is a totally crazy idea for throwing it into a caged opponent, but what if it dealt a portion of its damage as a splash after hitting the initial target -- say, 50% or 75%? this gives him a VERY high reward for being able to properly trap multiple people and force them to clump enough for the small splash radius to go off on them

that's enough rambling of me for tonight, take my ideas with a grain of salt because they'd probably break him

Kitten of Evil3 votes

I love playing Viktor. He's good for many of the reasons you said, especially when you add Lich Bane to his Q burst. Insane damage. He also has a huge range if you know how to E right. A solid under-picked champion and one I've lately been hoping to pick up as a main... but you're right, he's a reliable single-target deleter who can, if played well, delete 2 or 3 enemies.

But yes, his stun is miles better than Veig's. Drop it on yourself, you are now safe (ish) from assassins.

SIayton3 votes

Here's a kit rework idea to go with the "crazy powerful black mage" archetype that would also give him a UNIQUE feel.

Make ALL of his abilities chargeable like Xerath's Q, with secondary functions at full charge. Let him move around at a reduced speed while charging.

Q - Same functionality on tap. On charge, shot goes further and knocks back targets close to veigar / pierces more enemies.

W - Same functionality on tap. On charge, drops a much bigger meteor that slows.

E - On tap, same functionality. On charge, after the cage appears it collapses towards the middle.

R - Same functionality. On charge, knocks up targets around the blast location

I think he'd be way more fun to play and actually FEEL like a powerful black mage, charging to "cast" his spells. Right now for being an "all powerful black mage", he just feels kind of flat. He needs a lot more control over the enemy to survive in the current meta if he's going to remain squishy AND no mobility with that slow ass cage.

Also the charging would add counter play to the powerful CC he would have because you know to GTFO if Veigar starts charging a spell.

Big Lincoln2 votes

I like this. I would suggest that charging his abilities might reduce the charge time of immediate follow-ups to give him a smoother combo feeling, though.

Additionally, more damage might be necessary -- I feel that without DFG, more ratio scaling would benefit his theme of "holy fuck so much damage" quite nicely.

junglerboy163 votes

I agree, what they did to Veigar did make him an inferior Viktor.

Viktor has higher burst now, especially against non AP targets. Viktor has a more reliable skillshot nuke (his E is easier to hit and more damaging than Veigar's). Viktor has more utility from his Q (farm and poke with one spell, but also gain a shield and a MS buff). Viktor has a much more reliable stun because of the attached slow and more reliable AoE (even though his has a longer delay than Veigar's as well). Viktor has substantial AoE burst as well, where Veigar has only one "AoE" which is small enough that it rarely hits multiple enemies.

Veigar had his role as burst mage, Riot didn't like 100-0 deletion, so they gutted him into an inferior version one of the best designed mid range burst mages in the game. It is Ironic how my favorite mage in the whole game (Viktor) is so well designed and generally well balanced, but Veigar who now has a very similar pattern is so pathetically weak.

Big Lincoln2 votes

Veigar, to me, should be the epitome of damage absurdity. Since power-creep has become a sad reality and far too many champions possess the damage to 100-0 somebody, often quicker and safer than Veigar himself, I think he should be kept at the top of the damage charts regardless.

A fleeting thought of mine would be for Riot to push him to the very extreme of burst -- that when, come late game, Veigar should be the only person who can legitimately obliterate all but the tankiest of opponents. If he's going to be held as "the ultimate late game nuker," then he should represent that to the fullest.

Of course, that's completely absurd; building against him should yield some reward, but it'd be a fair compensation for how easily bullied he is early on. It'd also let him draw an actual, tangible parallel to Nasus in that he should be able to out-scale you if he plays the waiting game for long enough and push him into a very niche role to blow up other late game champions (i.e tanks)

junglerboy161 votes

Agreed, I think the biggest issue is that overall, damage benefits from power creep MUCH more than defense does, so as power creep expands in its many manifestations, more champions gain "100-0 burster" status, and fewer champions hold the title of "can't be 100-0ed". With Veigar, who was arguably the most damaging champion in the game for several seasons, the fact that everyone around him can 100-0 their target "well enough" to be viable makes his over the top burst unnecessary, because if Ahri doesn't need the extra 400 odd damage or extra 50% AP ratio to 100-0 the same target, she immediately becomes the better option because she also has built in sustain and mobility to "make up for" not having Veigar levels of damage. For a purely burst centric (kind of "one trick pony") champion to be viable, everyone else has to be generally durable enough that only he can really get the job done optimally, or else his burst becomes overkill and other champions whose kits are equally balanced in a vacuum become comparatively much more powerful for the other utility they have in lieu of excessive burst.

In the Viktor comparison, it trades a slightly longer stun, an enemy AP ratio, and AP farming for AP per level, higher ratios, higher reliability, higher personal utility, and higher safety. Veigar is paying for excess power where it really should be a more distinct choice/need for a choice between all out burst vs moderate burst and additional perks.

Yoella3 votes

As an avid Veigar player (at least pre-rework) I have to admit that his instant stun was obnoxious. I am NOT saying that it lacked counterplay, because it had tons of it (tenacity, QSS, Banshee's, etc), but I do admit that it was pretty powerful.

With the changes expected to go out in patch 5.5 I am considering playing Veigar again, as it lowers his stun delay to 0.75 (it was actually 1 second due to cast animations not included in the delay), speeds up Q, and makes his stun interrupt dashes. However, I do not feel as if this will bring Veigar back into a playable spot. He needs one very important thing to do that.

The biggest issue with Veigar is that his stun only stuns the outer corners. And while it was instant that was fine, however now it's almost impossible to land even on immobile champs. As a result, you either miss your stun entirely or your enemy gets stuck in the center of your stun (where they can still dodge everything you have and melt you by range if you get close enough to combo). A fix to this is to have the insides of Veigar's stun act like windwall does, blocking projectiles. This would mean that if you miss your stun the enemy can still dodge your attacks, but at least they can't kill you from inside (as easily).

BrutusTheCat1 votes

An interesting idea but again that would make his E way way to powerful, especially if he were to play support

Yoella1 votes

Maybe just for the first 1.5 seconds then, as the field lasts 3 seconds.

The Red Warden2 votes

My idea for a reworking of his ult posted in a different thread:

What if you changed the ult into a slow moving death orb that is broken up into two parts. The first part would be a targeted cast (as it is currently) that marks the character for the second but would do no damage. The second part would launch a very large death orb (around the size of Trundle) that moves extremely slowly but eventually would hit the opponent. The counterplay would be that whenever the orb comes in contact with an enemy minion/champion/ jungle monster, it would lose 10% of its damage and size up to 50%,but would gain 10% movespeed each time up to 50%. Those hit would take damage equal to the lost ratio damage, only the true target would be effected by the base damage. The orb would lose the enemy AP scaling but would now start with an AP ratio of 200% (maybe 175%), this ratio would then decrease at maximum to 100% (the base damage always stays the same).

This would embrace his dark lord theme since he will actually have an ability that is impending doom. The shrinking size would add clarity, and the increasing speed would stop it from feeling like a snail. It starts off as a giant death ball that could kill almost anyone, to a fast moving but weaker strike. It would keep the sense of power his ult currently has, increases the visual spectacle of it, and adds counter play.

Big Lincoln1 votes

just to clarify, it will hit people for the ratio damage and not the base if they aren't the person he targeted? so, say, if 10% is lost on the first go -- they'll take only that 10% damage, and the second person hit would take 20%?

it's a pretty unique idea, but it might clash with some of his final boss lines. It's always nice hearing him scream "DEEEEELETE!" right before launching this massive cube of destruction at someone

The Red Warden2 votes

Yeah I have to clarify it some more but the idea is supposed to be that anyone besides the main target would absorb part of its "momentum".

First person would take 10% of the ratio as damage and would reduce the ratio that the main target takes from 200% to 190%

Second person hit would take another 10% of it as damage reducing the ratio that the main person hit from 190% to 180% and so on until it reaches the minimum of a 100% ratio. Minions would also absorb the ratio making Veigar's positioning even more important.

I don't have the final boss skin but the main idea for this was to boost that since of eventual doom that you got when trapped in his stun and waiting for the w to fall. That "delete" qoute would still have the same impact though if you saw someone instantly explode as they are hit by the full power ult.

Big Lincoln1 votes

It's a neat idea, but I have a little trouble imagining it on him, which might just be two different mindsets. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it at all; however, it could be difficult to program.

Or maybe it's a lot simpler than I'm thinking. Would the damage still reduce if it hits someone who activates a spell-shield or has a Banshee's popped by it?

The Red Warden2 votes

The main idea of the ability is this. The ult stays on click but is changed into 2 parts. The first is the normal on click but this only acts as a mark for the second which launches a giant deathball that can weight as it hits other targets but will always reach the enemy. The enemy ap ratio is removed but the base ratio is now 200%.

Around .25 - .5 seconds after the initial click, a death ball is launched out that starts off moving very slowly with a large hit box. It will constantly chase the enemy, and will collide with anything in its way getting smaller each time.

Ex: It starts off at around the size of Trundle, a 200% ratio, and 300 movespeed. Each time it hits something the size is reduced a bit, the ratio drops 10% (goes 190% to 180% to 170% and so on) the speed will also increase by 30 for each reduction (smaller projectiles move faster). Each target besides the main person hit receives the 10% lost from the ratio but not the base damage of the ability. This means that each person hit besides the main will recieve the same damage.

The minimum reduction aspects will make it the size of Teemo with a 100% ap ratio, and 600 movespeed. After this point the ability should have hit the person by now, but it will now lose the effect of losing size or doing damage to anyone besides the target.

Not sure what the base damage would be, but remember that only the person he originally marked would recieve the base damage (they will also recieve what is left of the ratio).

Spell shields would not cause the ability to vanish unless the marked person uses them at just the right moment. A person who wasn't marked but who was shielded should receive no damage (an ability like Morgana's shield would just absorb imit like any other damage) but still cause the size/speed to change like normal.

OperationDEEZ12 votes

Also Veigar used to be one of the hardest matchups for vik, in the sense that they could both outright murder each other at 6.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

pre 6 vik annihilated him though

SephAgro2 votes

I would like Veigar to be completely reworked at this point. His strengths are being diluted and he's becoming a watered down version of other champions that fulfill their roles much better. I almost feel like the balance team are just trying to brute force his numbers until his winrate catches up so they can say "welp thats it, our job is done". Leaving behind a mediocre champion that is a shell of his former self.

Get this little guy back into the hands of the design team. There are so many ways to recreate him around his theme. I'll miss old Veigar though. Personally I'd like to see a true "Final Boss" Veigar who's a farm stacking champion that can change into a much more powerful final form (think final fantasy shenanigans).

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I feel what might be able to help, if they made it a snare and after a small delay, the walls would pick up. But idk.

Meep Man1 votes

I havent played new Veigar on the live servers yet but Im actually a little scared to based on feedback and results. I want Veigar to be the guaranteed 1 kill he was.

Big Lincoln1 votes

He'll be a lot better (compared to the moment) next patch. I'd play him then, which is likely only a week from now.

Doing it right now will probably just make you frustrated.

Steelflame1 votes

Luden's Echo does help him out a lot as well, don't forget that. Between both being a high AP item, and it giving him an additional stack of AP scaling on his skills (120 AP + 100+.15AP ratio), it can easily add 200 damage from just it's passive proc on veigar, on top of the 120 AP giving his combo aprox 300ish more damage IIRC. Also helps him roam/escape a little better due to the MS. Might not save you from a few people with hard gap closers/LR CC, but in flat out sprint to safety might be enough. It does help a bit when you get forced to resort to the poke with Q for a while playstyle while waiting for an opening as well, due to letting you get both CS procs and still potentially damaging enemies, or just making the poke do more damage in the first place (On just single use Q shots for poke, it is a 30%ish increase in base damage and a 25% increase in ratio, on top of the AoE echo effect hitting a few other people).

BrutusTheCat1 votes

OK, you are right that his kit was designed for that low mobility burst and was balanced in that roll. The main reason they are nerfing him in the way that they did is that he was unbalanced when put into a support roll, Veigar's counters were on a strategic level to beat him one would play a high mobility assassin which don't exist in the bottom lane especially in early game.

The problem with Riots "fix" was that it was rushed and incomplete leaving Veigar without a clear roll, this is the danger of having almost all of a champions power linked into one skill. Sadly I don't see a complete solution without a complete rework of Veigar's kit, one that increases the interplay between Veigars own skills and reduces his dependency on his one stun skill.

Sammystorm1 votes

honestly going back to his old stun doesn't fit that theme either. Viegar had a 1050 insta aoe stun. that isn't something a close range champ needed. Viegar should never have been balanced around that stun.

Big Lincoln1 votes

I don't think they should go back to his instant stun. Thinking more on it, and as necessary as I feel it was both for fighting people that can otherwise stomp him hilariously hard as well as giving the game some options versus the increasingly frustrating appearance of mobility, I can... kinda see why his stun was "unhealthy."

But Riot should have taken this opportunity to make a larger rework of his abilities and how he feels and plays, to both highlight his strengths better. I think his weaknesses are already pretty well-highlighted, but if Riot wants to create more trade-offs in exchange for higher power, then I can accept it.

Sammystorm1 votes

I think that the initial change to viegar was harsh and that riot wanted to see the outcome before they made any further changes. I believe that Riot will keep adding strength back to viegar until he is at a acceptable level.

rightmike001 votes

VIkwho?

oooo.....

never seen this guys in my life :(Viktor

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