A buff to thornmail

Jefftiffy·Oct 6, 2016·53 votes·2,341 views

+150g (2500 as new price) Now reduces all on hit effects by 10% and lifesteal against you is now 75% as effective (25% life steal reduction). This bulks you up against the on hit builds it is supposed to counter and makes it harder to use you as a lifesteal sponge and ignore the thorns. (late game it reduces about 100 healing per hit)

Edit: I seem to see a lot of misunderstanding on why I am avoiding grievous wounds. It's because it effects everyone, not just AA champs. The point of thornmail is to make the user more durable against AAs and reduce their impact as a whole. And the reducing on hit effects is supposed to help further encourage that niche (that means things like etc.)

42 Comments

RequiemsfireOct 6, 201630 votes

Rework the item, it's completely negated by last whisper item lines and the niche is tries to fill is outclassed by the availability of sustain.

It doesn't make you that tanky compared to other item options unless you've been stacking HP against a full AD composition.

JefftiffyOct 6, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Rework the item, it's completely negated by last whisper item lines and the niche is tries to fill is outclassed by the availability of sustain.

It doesn't make you that tanky compared to other item options unless you've been stacking HP against a full AD composition.

The problem with LW isn't thornmail. LW is the problem item 3035 1300g void 30% of your armor. If you have 100 armor built its 70 armor. And no matter what you are basically getting 3 armor pen from it thanks to runes.

RequiemsfireOct 6, 20162 votes

I can't imagine why thornmail would be a problem for last whisper(Vice versa maybe?).

Another reason why thornmail is in a pretty rough spot is because armour stacking isn't as efficient as stacking armour and health. Like would you rather 100 armour or 50 armour and 500 health. In terms of effective health you're losing out in the long run not just due to % armour pen but because it doesn't provide enough durability. Furthermore health helps against both magic damage and armour regardless where as thornmail only deals with the physical portion of damage.

My typical tank build is item 1401 / item 3068 item 3742 item 3111 item 3143 item 3065 item 3083 / item 3110

Hell I'll even throw in an item 3190 if my support doesn't go for it.

VoidlissOct 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

The problem with LW isn't thornmail. LW is the problem 1300g void 30% of your armor. If you have 100 armor built its 70 armor. And no matter what you are basically getting 3 armor pen from it thanks to runes.

This is just not true. Last Whisper gives 30% BONUS armor penetration. If you have 100 armor. Probably about 40-50 is base. So LW will only reduce your armor to about 80.

JefftiffyOct 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

This is just not true. Last Whisper gives 30% BONUS armor penetration. If you have 100 armor. Probably about 40-50 is base. So LW will only reduce your armor to about 80.

It is true. What are you talking about. Why do you think I said 3 at least. Reading comprehension plz. The average champ has about 100 base armor at level 18 and most champs build at least 50 armor. This also excludes the fact that masteries can give armor. And the average tank stacks about 150 armor. And this also excludes armor from abilities.

SpoofghoulOct 6, 20162 votes

average champ has 100 base armor . . .

really. . .

more like 85

junglerboy16Oct 7, 20162 votes

Even less for a lot of squishies.

I remember when Poppy and Maokai were tied for first with 90 and people thought they were tanky as hell late.

JefftiffyOct 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It is true. What are you talking about. Why do you think I said 3 at least. Reading comprehension plz. The average champ has about 100 base armor at level 18 and most champs build at least 50 armor. This also excludes the fact that masteries can give armor. And the average tank stacks about 150 armor. And this also excludes armor from abilities.

And for those of you downvoting this post. I did not say it penetrates base armor. I said most tanks stack 150 armor, so they technically have 250 on average.

XeroKimoOct 7, 20161 votes

30% bonus armor pent means it only applied to items runes and masteries, not the armor you get from lvling up therefore, the 100 armor thornmail will be equivalent to 70 armor is what he's saying

JefftiffyOct 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rework the item, it's completely negated by last whisper item lines and the niche is tries to fill is outclassed by the availability of sustain.

It doesn't make you that tanky compared to other item options unless you've been stacking HP against a full AD composition.

Reworking items has never really worked unless they are made into core items like item 3071 .

Atma's was straight up removed after attempted reworks. item 3053 still hasn't been changed in the way it should have been from the beginning. item 3083 was reworked and no sees almost no use. item 3174 got reworked and is in the gutter right now. item 3143 got power creeped by item 3742 .

Giving item 3075 a wider and better niche and a better slot efficiency while not making it too broad will help bring it into play without making it a build every time item like item 3742 on bruisers and tanks. Or how item 3116 is on mages now.

RequiemsfireOct 8, 20161 votes

I disagree with that.

item 3053 great for fighters and good for a cheap early-mid survivability which still scales later on, the shield does exactly what it intends and that's survive burst.

item 3083 is a very niche item but a good choice if you've stacked a lot of resistances and extremely useful if you win a fight because then it helps to capitalise on objectives. It's not the most copy-paste item out there but it's still useful.

item 3143 is just a good item overall, while being the only item to directly mitigate crit damage by a whole 10% but it's real use comes with the active making incredibly good for champions that dive into the enemy team like Amumu or Malphite . I actually often build it alongside item 3742 because armor+ hp. HELL YEAH.

And if I'm not mistaken, I was sure that giving thornmail a wider and better niche is essentially the same as giving it a rework.

JefftiffyOct 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I disagree with that.

great for fighters and good for a cheap early-mid survivability which still scales later on, the shield does exactly what it intends and that's survive burst.

is a very niche item but a good choice if you've stacked a lot of resistances and extremely useful if you win a fight because then it helps to capitalise on objectives. It's not the most copy-paste item out there but it's still useful.

is just a good item overall, while being the only item to directly mitigate crit damage by a whole 10% but it's real use comes with the active making incredibly good for champions that dive into the enemy team like or . I actually often build it alongside because armor+ hp. HELL YEAH.

And if I'm not mistaken, I was sure that giving thornmail a wider and better niche is essentially the same as giving it a rework.

Except that item 3053 is often built more on people who don't stack tank stats which it was meant to be for. Why do you think all of these non-tank champs are being built tank with this item. Because it gives way too much of a shield for building no HP or stats to back up the defensive portion.

item 3083 passive isn't good enough unless you plan to somehow stall for time between fights and most tanks go in and stay in rather than leave the fights. So having it only proc on leaving fights kind of counters the tanks job.

item 3143 is almost always worse than item 3742 against ADC's because there is a chance they won't crit and 10% damage reduction doesn't happen. And the slow is too hard to get off unless you are either kiting or already in the fight and tanks want to more ability to get a good engage than stay in because better engages = better fights. And Randuin's makes it so an already good engage does better. The only time item 3143 outshines item 3742 is you have a really good engage ability like Sejuani Zac and the enemy team has 2+ crit champs. And that is assuming the engage isn't movement based (voli running in with is better than )

And reworking an item usually means that the item and how it operates changes completely. Such as how item 3143 item 3083 item 3027 item 3035 item 3174 were changed.

WiegrafOfValorOct 7, 20164 votes

Or just make thornmail inflict GW on the attacker for 2~4 sec

JefftiffyOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Or just make thornmail inflict GW on the attacker for 2~4 sec

I'm trying to avoid Grievous wounds. Why? Because Thornmail is meant to counter AAs. And if it applies grievous then it also counters casters and mages.

morris1Oct 8, 20161 votes

Why is a mage auto attacking in the first place? And even despite Teemo Diana Kayle Azir Bard TwistedFate etc. only Kayle and hardly Bard are hurt by this. If they build items like Gunblade most of their damage output will be auto attacks anyway.

JefftiffyOct 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=onb4s9AG,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2016-10-08T16:27:01.898+0000)

Why is a mage auto attacking in the first place? And even despite etc. only Kayle and hardly Bard are hurt by this. If they build items like Gunblade most of their damage output will be auto attacks anyway.

Because maybe just maybe that even mages do damage with AAs. And telling them that something that already does minimal damage should not be used at all even if they are on CD. And you forget they still do 90% of their on hit effects to them. That is actually quite a decent amount. And it also reduces healing if they have gunblade.

HateDaddyOct 7, 20163 votes

Armor stacking is already good against lifesteal but the 10% on-hit reduction is interesting

MonkeyMadnessOct 6, 20162 votes

Or here's an idea: nerf fkin fervor...1 little tweak would solve most of this bs damage creep.

Shadow HazardOct 7, 20162 votes

Firstly a lot of on hits are either magic or true damage specifically to counter the armor stackers. And generally any buff to thornmail will result in a direct imbalance in rammus. Because fervor and a few other on hits are physical but don't benefit at all from life steal this will hit the on hit champs harder than it would hit the crit adc champs. even with those points, im not against the idea of boosting up thornmail up.

I think a better idea would be to reduce the armor it gives and change it into a mr+armor item like GA or zzrot and add a mini galio heal passive 5 per hit +5% bonus mr for example for numbers pulled out of my ass. Make them think harder on their choice in the last whisper item upgrades.

ZerenzaOct 7, 20162 votes

When was the last time you were able to reliably pick Rammus into Jax, Xin Zhao,Tryndamere and Master Yi in fact most of these champions "Melee Carry's" specifically don't have any reliable items that you can build against them as a tank and don't have reliable picks against them either. The only way you can stop these champions is CC but that's still kind of meh since no one can fight them either way and the majority of them are split pushers so it's very frequent that they're just left to run rampant without any real reliable counter, especially since tanks get easily shredded by them in many cases due to their combination of Lifesteal+Penetration.

I feel there should be no worry with buffing Thornmail to counter them harder because we really do need something to make the melee carry's more healthy to play against, that way if you loose to one of them it's your fault and not the game cheating you because there's really just nothing that you can rely on to stop them.

Now they certainly aren't OP but they are definitely frustrating and myself along with many other find fighting them to be very infuriating because after a certain point it's completely hopeless to do anything against them.

Shadow HazardOct 7, 20161 votes

picking one of the most famous armor tanks into a champ that has a built in armor denial in their kit is generally a bad idea, they are supposed to body you early game. Late game those listed champs are building bruiser and they aren't taking you down faster than a full build adc with their foolish amounts of life steal.

ZerenzaOct 7, 20162 votes

It won't matter, i'v seen it a hundred times, they'll win they build the same as any ADC and have arguably better scaling with said items. Fighting a Melee Carry is roughly the same as fighting an ADC just they out sustain you, not kite you. Thornmail isn't a good enough item and rammus isn't a good enough champion to stop them anymore.

On a side note, they may or may not be building bruiser, they don't have to and can build exactly the same as any ADC but gain more from it. It doesn't matter whether they are taking you down faster or not, if they take you down then your a useless tank. Especially if they do it alone, ADC's need their team, melee carry's don't.

Shadow HazardOct 7, 20161 votes

if they build like that they will get popped the moment the moment any adc or apc sneezes in their direction or any cc hits them. going full damage on a bruiser or melee carry champ is such a bad idea, you are just making yourself a suicide bomber.

DrunkplankOct 7, 20162 votes

Let it apply grevious wounds? It is disgusting to see some adcs hitting you and hot loosing life cause hey lifesteal bro

JefftiffyOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Let it apply grevious wounds? It is disgusting to see some adcs hitting you and hot loosing life cause hey lifesteal bro

Do you understand what grievous wounds does? It reduces all healing by 40%. Including spell vamp and hp regen. The Niche of thornmail is to stop AAs from being as powerful. If you add grievous it makes it a problem for anyone who heals and grievous wounds are going to be in damn near every game. The point of avoiding grievous is to help make it better in it's own niche without giving it general power. It's the entire point of the whole reducing on hit effects. Giving thornmail a niche where you would actually think of buying it and having it actually be useful.

S0kaXOct 6, 20161 votes

Well make it 250 gold and we have a deal.

JefftiffyOct 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well make it 250 gold and we have a deal.

I was going with a nice even number. It could probably be bumped to 2700 at most and still be usable.

S0kaXOct 6, 20162 votes

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/626/113/cf1.jpg

AirKingNeoOct 6, 20161 votes

Isn't the problem with Thornmail is that it is an anti-burst item but also and anti-sustain damage item? Oh and the fact it completely counters Jax out is a problem.

JefftiffyOct 6, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Isn't the problem with Thornmail is that it is an anti-burst item but also and anti-sustain damage item? Oh and the fact it completely counters Jax out is a problem.

How is 100 armor anti burst. Anti-burst is things like item 3053 item 3156 item 3102

AirKingNeoOct 6, 20161 votes

Because flat Armor Pen works better the less armor the enemy has, hence 100 nearly nullifies most armor pen. Hence, anti burst.

Spaceman5pffOct 7, 20166 votes

I can see where you are going with that, but that still doesn't make it anti-burst.

Flat armor penetration has nothing to do with burst. If I do 300 damage over 3 seconds, flat armor pen isn't going to make that happen any faster, it will just increase the AMOUNT of damage.

deadlychuckOct 7, 20164 votes

Actually, it's terrible against burst. Rush it against a zed and tell me how that goes.

Celestial Lion12Oct 7, 20161 votes

Or just don't thornmail still feels extremely toxic to play against as an adc by trying to focus down the tank they do 500 damage to you

Rundus1Oct 7, 20162 votes

If the tank is Malph or Rammus, you should die for focusing him as an adc unless maybe you're Jhin/Corki and you spellweave correctly. Anyone else that 500 damage just feels meager when you give your life to do it.

MazariamontiOct 7, 20161 votes

That item really should not be allowed to be strong. AD itemization is too strong, definitely, but buffing up that anti-fun item isn't the answer.

Resonance x LFTOct 7, 20161 votes

Honestly, if thornmail applied grevious wounds in place of it's passive, I think it would do the job that it is intended to do.

DengedenOct 7, 20161 votes

It has a niche as a cheap heavy armor item and even if it is negated, it also means ADCs won't heal off the rest of the damage done to them.

Jesus is SaviorOct 7, 20161 votes

Lifesteal is a direct counter to thornmail, so no. Plus they'd need to make a new icon to distinguish true grievous wounds from "thornmail grievous wounds"

Brimaz The KingOct 7, 20161 votes

You are out of your mind.

Bard R FridayOct 7, 20161 votes

Technically you can apply grievous wounds with thornmail if you have morellonomicon and they're below 40% health.

JefftiffyOct 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Technically you can apply grievous wounds with thornmail if you have morellonomicon and they're below 40% health.

That requires you to have built it just for that and to scale with AP. If you don't scale with AP you are spending almost 3k gold just for the passive that only procs situationally,