gangplank is too versatile

Critmaster Garen·Mar 19, 2017·6 votes·1,952 views

giving him waveclear was a gigantic mistake.

its like playing against

youre constantly held hostage in lane by his ability to waveclear and push. meanwhile hes still able to contribute to fights across the map.

hes incredibly hard to shut down even when behind, due to the safety of his ranged farm/waveclear and bonus gold generation.

maybe its time to think if his ult shouldnt be changed from global to limited range like or . or remove his ability to apply on hit effects to his barrel explosions to tune down his waveclear.

40 Comments

AnhartaminMar 19, 20175 votes

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Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Got smashed by a Gp? He's sitting at a negative wr on top and mid. Renekton smashes gp, riven smashes gp, quinn smashes gp and I could go on for hours.

GP may have his global ult but you can just walk out of it easily... it's strong when he had spent 1,5k silver serpents but when does that happen? I haven't seen a full build gp in months lol.

His main damage comes from his barrels, just destroy them and he's donezo. If you lose lane vs gp you deserve to go on a 5000 games losing streak like honestly.

hes consistently being the most reliable top laner since his rework and has been nerfed over and over for it.

hes too good at everything and is ranked one of the strongest, if not THE strongest top lane pick.

but to go into your individual arguments:

his ult deals a fuckton of damage. bing able to walk out of it doesnt change the fact that it turns around fights and skirmishes around the map, nor does it diminish its zoning potential.
he can throw down barrels at you mid explosion, hitting you with them without giving you a chance to react or counterplay. combine this with the fact that barrels are invisible and untargetable in bushes without direct vision and the entire idea behind the minigame becomes mute. its just a giant lane bully/zoning tool.

AnhartaminMar 19, 20171 votes

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Sahn UzalMar 19, 20171 votes

They are re-doing the coding on TLD so you can't proc it with stuff like GP ult or Morganas W.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

Early game ult does no damage unless it procs Thunderlords (but even then it's meh). Global range of it is payoff for being utter garbage during early game at everything.

You can bait his barrels or with proper movement dodge his damage entirely (can't find video of it on youtube but I see that performed pretty often by Tobias Fate opponents on his stream). I see people even consistently destroying his barrels post 13 level.

Most reliable toplaner? You forgot about Maokai or Poppy. One of the strongest? Most toplaners shit on him during laning phase and due to short games he mostly doesn't even reach late game.

PennsMar 19, 20172 votes

negative wr on top and mid

Reminds me of one of the most broken mid laners in the game for months

Ryze

AnhartaminMar 19, 20171 votes

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Sahn UzalMar 19, 20171 votes

He's used as a counterpick to Shen in LCS. That's the only situation where he's picked AFAIK.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Got smashed by a Gp? He's sitting at a negative wr on top and mid. Renekton smashes gp, riven smashes gp, quinn smashes gp and I could go on for hours.

GP may have his global ult but you can just walk out of it easily... it's strong when he had spent 1,5k silver serpents but when does that happen? I haven't seen a full build gp in months lol.

His main damage comes from his barrels, just destroy them and he's donezo. If you lose lane vs gp you deserve to go on a 5000 games losing streak like honestly.

Because if you're melee, you can totally hit destroy his barrels before he does, huh?

And you can totally destroy the 3 health barrel he just put next to you, connected to his other one.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because if you're melee, you can totally hit destroy his barrels before he does, huh?

And you can totally destroy the 3 health barrel he just put next to you, connected to his other one.

even ranged cant contest them when he does it "correctly".

what he does is throw a barrel next to him into a bush or behind him where it cant be targeted. and then he hits q on the barrel and while the animation for the explosion is running, he throws down 2 more barrels in your direction and chains them mid explosion in your face.

it takes only a bit of practise to do with consistency. but it removes the ability to counterplay them.

he shouldnt be able to do that imo.

its his overall safety and versatily that anoys me the most. the fact that hes a great splitpusher, while he can contribute to fights all over the map.

even shen and tf have to leave lane to have somewhat of an impact for their team.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=onVdh558,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2017-03-19T16:13:17.234+0000)

even ranged cant contest them when he does it "correctly".

what he does is throw a barrel next to him into a bush or behind him where it cant be targeted. and then he hits q on the barrel and while the animation for the explosion is running, he throws down 2 more barrels in your direction and chains them mid explosion in your face.

it takes only a bit of practise to do with consistency. but it removes the ability to counterplay them.

he shouldnt be able to do that imo.

its his overall safety and versatily that anoys me the most. the fact that hes a great splitpusher, while he can contribute to fights all over the map.

even shen and tf have to leave lane to have somewhat of an impact for their team.

Ranged has a better chance because they can shoot the barrels even when they're next to GP because GP's barrel range is good but unless he's kiting backwards, there's time for a Caitlyn to walk up and shoot behind him usually.

AnhartaminMar 19, 20174 votes

[deleted]

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You can pretend to walk up to a cs, bait out his combo and back off so he misses it. He doesn't have infinite barrels anymore so he runs out of barrels fast.

even if he doesnt poke you down, he still clears waves fast from safety and just outscales you due to the gold advantage.

you can try to pretend that he isnt a problem, but he repeatedly creeps back into op territory every couple of patches.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You can pretend to walk up to a cs, bait out his combo and back off so he misses it. He doesn't have infinite barrels anymore so he runs out of barrels fast.

But you can't because it's a big aoe remember? It's impossible to dodge just by walking in the other direction, you need to use a dash or movespeed boost.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

It is possible, Tidal Tyrant sent someone like month ago his video where he played Sion and still baited GP's barrels as immobile champion.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It is possible, Tidal Tyrant sent someone like month ago his video where he played Sion and still baited GP's barrels as immobile champion.

It's possible, but incredibly difficult because he can place the first one beside you and explode on top of you.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

He baited this kind of barrel combo, it's not so difficult and even if that hits you it doesn't do much damage during early game. After he lands his one part combo he leaves himself vulnerable so take your time and punish him for that (punishing him for that is even easier cuz he pushes his lane by destroying barrels).

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He baited this kind of barrel combo, it's not so difficult and even if that hits you it doesn't do much damage during early game. After he lands his one part combo he leaves himself vulnerable so take your time and punish him for that (punishing him for that is even easier cuz he pushes his lane by destroying barrels).

How? There's no way Sion can move ~300 units in the .5 seconds it takes for the barrels to explode (second barrel is literally placed on top of you).

Yeah, except he doesn't need to combo you early. He just defensively barrels and farms. If you go aggressive, then he barrels you, and still has 2 barrels up because he used the one he placed earlier and 1 other.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

The thing is that you should back off if he zones you. He baited him when he was pretending to come CS. When he wants to defensively farm without using combos he is still in danger zone of for example Sion's Q. Sion himself as immobile champion counters him, how is that?

If you're playing a champion without any sort of ranged abilities, mobility or both then you just got counterpicked and there is little you can do about it. If you're a juggernaut you should be tanky enough to be able to eat his barrel combo. Make him detonate it near your minions so he will push his lane and be bound to go further making him vulnerable to ganks or you will have better chance to get him as he will be far away from his turret.

If there is no mechanical outplay opportunity you outplay your opponents by macro play which is possible almost everytime.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that you should back off if he zones you. He baited him when he was pretending to come CS. When he wants to defensively farm without using combos he is still in danger zone of for example Sion's Q. Sion himself as immobile champion counters him hard, how is that?

If you're playing a champion without any sort of ranged abilities, mobility or both then you just got counterpicked and there is little you can do about it. If you're a juggernaut you should be tanky enough to be able to eat his barrel combo. Make him detonate it near your minions so he will push his lane and be bound to go further making him vulnerable to ganks or you will have better chance to get him as he will be far away from his turret.

If there is no mechanical outplay opportunity you outplay your opponents by macro play which is possible almost everytime.

Because Sion is basically ranged, and although his own abilities are delayed, Gangplank has no hard CC to stop his Q and no hard mobility to escape it, especially when he is slowed by Sion's E.

You'll be tanky enough, until mid game, and then being shot multiple times and barreled twice will mean your death. As a juggernaut, he'd be kiting you the whole time.

I think part of the problem is that there is very little macro play against a Gangplank. If you leave him to help your team, he will gladly take all the free CS and help with team with his ult anyway.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

Most champions in this game have ranged abilities and all of them are threat to GP. Even some champions without any ranged abilities besides ult are problematic for GP for example Trundle, Riven. If you picked champion that Gangplank is supposed to counter then well, you shouldn't do well against him.

Most toplaners shit on GP during laning phase and delay his mid game powerspike. That also means that they had easy time farming and have their own powerspikes. If Gangplank's team is doing poorly then in most scenarios he is doing poorly as well because of no gold income from his ult. His ult has long cooldown and if your team can't tell when it's up and go into the close fights then they outplayed themselves. If you have Karthus in enemy team you don't engage in risky fights as well.

Ganking cowardly buttpirate is also easy and that helps with delaying his damage even further. Look at Tobias Fate when he plays toplane, he gets completely demolished by junglers if they have brain and does nothing untill 30th minute of the game with farming whole the time (assuming that the game didn't end before).

His kiting in early game doesn't exist. Darius deals with him no problem, so does Trundle or even Illaoi. You can fuck his weak early damage even further by buying Tabi Ninja.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Most champions in this game have ranged abilities and all of them are threat to GP. Even some champions without any ranged abilities besides ult are problematic for GP for example Trundle, Riven. If you picked champion that Gangplank is supposed to counter then well, you shouldn't do well against him.

Most toplaners shit on GP during laning phase and delay his mid game powerspike. That also means that they had easy time farming and have their own powerspikes. If Gangplank's team is doing poorly then in most scenarios he is doing poorly as well because of no gold income from his ult. His ult has long cooldown and if your team can't tell when it's up and go into the close fights then they outplayed themselves. If you have Karthus in enemy team you don't engage in risky fights as well.

Ganking cowardly buttpirate is also easy and that helps with delaying his damage even further. Look at Tobias Fate when he plays toplane, he gets completely demolished by junglers if they have brain and does nothing untill 30th minute of the game with farming whole the time (assuming that the game didn't end before).

His kiting in early game doesn't exist. Darius deals with him no problem, so does Trundle or even Illaoi. You can fuck his weak early damage even further by buying Tabi Ninja.

Meh, Gangplank's early damage isn't absolute trash, so people don't completely faceroll him. The problem is when he starts poking you down. If he's got the bigger minion wave, engaging on him is a bad idea, and then he either gets to zone you off CS or he gets to poke you down with his Q - and if he pokes you enough, you can't engage on him anymore because he'll win.

Gangplank is really good against champions who can't stop him from poking.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

Comparing it to other toplaners, it is actually trash and their damage isn't as conditional as his. His poke can be completely shut down by rushing tabi ninja and buying Dorans Shield. If he pokes you then he misses some bonus gold from last hitting with Q.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Comparing it to other toplaners, it is actually trash and their damage isn't as conditional as his. His poke can be completely shut down by rushing tabi ninja and buying Dorans Shield. If he pokes you then he misses some bonus gold from last hitting with Q.

Even before he gets Sheen, it's basically a weaker Pantheon Q. Compared to other toplaners, it's pretty decent as some of them don't even have poke. Parley gets a lot of damage from levels, and will chunk a fair amount at level 5. Triforce means his damage is plenty to kill you even if you're ahead, as long as you aren't a tank.

He's not missing much gold either because he's proccing Bandit for 10 gold each time he Q's you.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20172 votes

And those toplaners vs whom his poke excels are the minority that is being countered by him. Tabi still makes him kill himself during early game as he is bound to rush certain item (TF) no matter what while you can outdamage him with just the Tabis.

Yup Gangplank has unhealthy interaction with Bandit mastery and it needs to be looked at imo (hell I would gladly remove his gold income from Q in exchange for some power).

If you aren't a tank but:

Skirmisher: then you've got mobility to fuck him up and various forms of damage mitigations (Fiora's W, Tryndamere's Q and W which reduces his AD, Jax' E and R, Yasuo's W and passive)
Diver: you have mobility and (probably) sustain or sometimes being untargetable (like Camille) to fuck him up
Assassin: mobility, burst, being untargetable (Zed, Shaco) to fuck him up
ADC: range to kill his barrels and kite him
Support: you should stick with your team
Mage: range, CC, damage mitigations, sustain etc.

Sahn UzalMar 19, 20171 votes

Yup Gangplank has unhealthy interaction with Bandit mastery and it needs to be looked at imo (hell I would gladly remove his gold income from Q in exchange for some power).

Agreed.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20171 votes

Though I would like Gangplank to come back to his offtank roots. I don't know how about you but I was more dedicated to play him and enjoyed him more before his rework even when he was weak.

Barrel mechanics make me think that my sole purpose is fight with them friggin barrels (and accidentally killing people by collateral damage) than actively fighting, robbing, outsmarting landlubbers but it might be just me.

EDIT: there is so many comments under main comment that I can't reply directly to anyone but myself :D

Sahn UzalMar 19, 20171 votes

Though I would like Gangplank to come back to his offtank roots.

He kinda is doing that.

Koreans have been popularising a bruiser GP build a respectable amount.

Grasp + item 3078 item 3748 item 3053 item 3142 item 3033 item 3047 is kinda the cookie cutter build.

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20171 votes

Seems interesting I will try it out on the next ocassion but I'm afraid that he still relies on his barrels for damage source too much and less on being directly in combat and making clever decision-making out there.

Big LincolnMar 19, 20172 votes

GP can fuck off

tired of having to just not be anywhere near my minion wave once he hits level 7, and then not being allowed to go near him period past 13. piece of shit gets to a point where he can just choose not to interact with me ever

you either pick a champion that can all him repeatedly off the slightest misstep MonkeyKing XinZhao or you just have to accept that he's going to free farm and get global kills/assist with his ult

hate this guy, I wanted a manly pirate king when he was getting reworked

Wet DrymanMar 19, 20176 votes

Pirates were never "manly" to begin with. They always were backstabbing, deceitful, doing what they want and shit. GP fits that pretty well though I miss his old version with Atma. Stabbing people and shooting the ones that wanted to escape was funnier than shooting at barrels 24/7 because if you won't do that everything will kill you in close range combat.

Tychusfindlay919Mar 19, 20172 votes

GP isn't too versatile.

I love running them down with ghost flash Darius it's fucking freelo.

His early game is incredibly exploitable buddy.

zlumpyMar 19, 20171 votes

Put a mana cost on barrel. That pretty much solves the lane being held hostage while always allowing him to have an ult and grog for safety.

likiliki12Mar 19, 20171 votes

Just pick Pantheon and he is fucked he also takes a lot of practice to master. His Kegs are predicitble if they arent a 1 part otherwise you just move out of the way and if he dosent have a crit he wont chunk you for half of your hp. He gets fucked in early game

likiliki12Mar 19, 20171 votes

Incoming Tobias fanboys

xJ3susJul 6, 20171 votes

lol i was just playing gp vs panth top, and.......... you are very right, got fucked hard early game, but panth falls off hard and is pretty useless later, so won the game anyways.

Gregor GysiMar 20, 20171 votes

I think now that Exhaust got nerfed it's pretty easy to play against GP although he is an annoying little bastard. If you really want to crush him just dive him again and again before he starts oneshotting waves.

xHawkJul 29, 20171 votes

Just about anyone that can all in GP even if he's playing safe will win the lane. Unless he pokes you out early his leaning phase is pretty bad and he's easy to get to