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I really like the trend towards Ammo-Systems on marksmen...

SaltyToplaneGoat··5 votes·1,371 views

Mostly because it kind of deals with this stupid "lolz infinite ammo" logic of video games.

Sure, some champions don't need to reload.

Lucian fires focussed light, Ashe uses the humidity of the air and the true ice of her bow to create infinite arrows (or at least so it appears to me). Jayce does not have this problem either: he can fire as long as his hammer has power, the exact same thing applies to Ezreal and something similiar applies to Kalista who can create her spears ouf of spooky energy. (Although in lore they might be limited to three or four spears at once, as she seems to use the ones pierced in her back).

Oh and Kog'Maw doesn't have this problem either for he is an infinite source of acid spit.

Mage champions in general do not have this problem as their basic attack is just some "tiny magic orb" (or that one weird thing you might forgot exists when you play Karthus) or a "Zap" (see Azir).

Melee champions do not have this porblem for obvious reasons.

That leaves only a really small pool of champions:

Caitlyn Infinite Munition Rifle. Kind of weird.

Draven His gameplay revolves around catching axes, but That could as well be his passive if you ask me: if you miss both axes you need to fetch them before you can do anything. Would make the champion SUPER hard to play through (but would give Draven players another reason to feel better than anyone else when they are good, besides being Draven)

Nidalee Infinite spears in human form. Well, goes by mostly unnoticed as her basic attack in that form is barely used in combat, but I mention her here just so the list is complete. As she is not a Basic Attack focussed champ this is not really an issue.

Sivir throws a thing and it magicially re-appears in her hand Wut?! Also, she can throw her Q and STILL basic attack. Wtf she just threw her main weapon away?! HOW DOES THIS EVEN WORK?

Quinn Vayne I lack general knownledge on their arm-corssbows that seem to be a nique demacian thing. Also, my knownledge of crossbows in general sucks too much to let me comment on this. If there is an expert on these board for medival ranged weapons, please feel free to help me out with this one.

Tristana / MissFortune INFINITE SHOTS! Same "problem" as with Cait

Now, it's easy to say "Muh that's how video games are, don't mess with mah champ!", but then on the other hand having to resort to this argument is usually a mark of lazy and/or bad design.

Also, I do not want to give all Marksmen the "You have to play like Graves or Jhin now" treatment, but on some a system like that would just be more natural, while others, such as Draven and Sivir, would work wonderfully with unique attack patterns. Marksmen generally had a problem in establishing an identity for themselves with all of them being simple "right-clickers", but now there is a lot of potential to make the champs feel unique and engaing as they are supposed to be.

42 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

quinn being already bursty assassin kindof marksman could easily get put on an ammo system imo.

and mayb it would finally be a way to balance vayne. if she had 4 shots before having to reload, and her 4th shot would apply her w passive.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Vayne, if anything, needs a full rework. With or without ammo system it doesn't matter, but her kit needs more complexity and room for human error - and also something that lets her actually work for that true percentage damage. I can see it working has her passive: Usually every third shot deals physical %hp dmg, but if you hit it with an damageing abilitiy it deals true damage.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Would it help to just think of it as them having the ability to reload as fast as their attack speed?

Or them having sufficient ammo loaded that they never run out and reload when they recall?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, using attack speed for this would be a nice way to make the stat more interesting on these champs. WIth Graves it kinda works that way: Attack speed reduces the time between shots VASTLY, but ALSO reduces the reload time. At least a little.

Right now attack speed is kind of a lame stat as AD and crit chance are usually of higher priority and sometimes even CDR, but it would become super interesting on that specific champions.

Paroe2 votes

Arm crossbows are generally loaded with some of feed box. iirc it was like... chi no kuni, chinese crossbow units, who had them best. Vayne arguably uses magic bolts called "silverwood bolts" - her small crossbow is made of magical silverwood - and quinns is more like a pistol.

Any ranged champion who uses a weapon would, arguably, need to reload every 1-6 shots. exceptions are of course champions like lucian who dont use a mechanical weapon. It could be an interesting point of balance and lead to "AP crit" champions who utilize attack speed and AP and dont have to reload.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

She uses magic bolts? I thought they were plain silver with some kind of inscription - ya know, the classical monster-hunting weapons.

Vayne's weird arm-things can storage quite a capacity of shots in theory at least, but Quinn seems to use a more traditional design (which means european/medival from my point of view) and that implies a certain need to reload after every shot (or after every 2-3 shots depending on the complexity and how modern the design is)

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYofKI06,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-02-06T18:54:58.777+0000)

She uses magic bolts? I thought they were plain silver with some kind of inscription - ya know, the classical monster-hunting weapons.

Vayne's weird arm-things can storage quite a capacity of shots in theory at least, but Quinn seems to use a more traditional design (which means european/medival from my point of view) and that implies a certain need to reload after every shot (or after every 2-3 shots depending on the complexity and how modern the design is)

I said arguably :P vayne is a monster hunter and monster hunters often use "magical materials" in their tools.

Quinns crossbow would probably be a one shot thing.

Couldnt you also imitate an ammo system by making all ranged attack animations for applicable champions include some kind of 'reload' animation? Like an anivia or karthus animation... or even an ekko animation. the second hit is usually really slow.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmm it would depend on if it would go naturally with the attack animation or if it would just look too weird.

Personally prefer the idea of champs having to "reload" because it allows to buff them in other parts of their kits - the parts that actually define them as the champion they are. It's a weakness that appears natural and logical, but also allows some really strong mechanics to weight it up.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYofKI06,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-06T19:43:09.132+0000)

Hmmm it would depend on if it would go naturally with the attack animation or if it would just look too weird.

Personally prefer the idea of champs having to "reload" because it allows to buff them in other parts of their kits - the parts that actually define them as the champion they are. It's a weakness that appears natural and logical, but also allows some really strong mechanics to weight it up.

Id actually really like it if bonus AD were made weaker and base attack damage per level were made stronger.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Then ADC would be less item dependant... I'm not sure if that is good or bad...

Saianna2 votes

Mage champions in general do not have this problem as their basic attack is just some "tiny magic orb"

Zilean Orianna cogwheels company

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

SHAME ON ME.

AND I EVEN MAINED ZILEAN SOME SEASONS AGO <_<

Seems like I was way too focussed on the marksmen class with this.

I can think up some excuse for Zilean: he throws the cogwheel and then does a tiny time trick and it's back in his hand.

Orianna is kind of weird tho. She literally throws her organs at you. Like, WTF? O_o

Z Statistic2 votes

... ... Graves and Jhin have infinite ammo as well... What you're complaining about isn't ammo but lack of reloading and specific Sivir and Nid's attack.

I get that suspension of disbelief is relative and not objective, but in a world where preventing someone from speaking keeps them from drinking a bottle of water or placing a ward, this is one of the more...tame things to be confused about.

Blitzidious2 votes

He specified it was the lack of reloading.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Uhh at least I think I did. Sorry if I didn't get that across correctly... <_<

EponaAteNavi1 votes

idk bro, unless you raided for 3 weeks strait and finally got the never ending quiver(mag), you're gonna need some ammo from the shop.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Sadly I have no clue what you are talking about <_<

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYofKI06,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-06T18:15:50.082+0000)

Sadly I have no clue what you are talking about <_<

hes saying even if graves and jhin dont have infinite ammo in their guns, they somehow carry an infinite amount of magazines with them.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Ah I thought it was some kind of reference...

Well, Ammo is not really big if I'm honest. Carrying around 30 shotgun shells? Not a big deal if you got big pockets. Even easier for rifle bullets that take up even less space.

However, "carrying" infinite ammo is less obvious in gameplay than "never needing to reload", which is what I'm getting at.

Rain NT1 votes

Some of these might jsut kill the champion in general and can never be played in competitive or it would just crush the identity of the champ and already establish game function for ADCs lol. I think its already too late to change them if they were already created like that. And it would be strange to make new champs with all ammo functions to them

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

First, there are plenty of "infinite shots" adcs around as I mentioned in my post above. And I'm sure Riot will not stop completly making champs like that.

Second, it's all a matter of design and balance. An example: Having to reload every six shots as Cait doesn't sound gamebreaking to me, specially when this allows buffing other parts of her kit.

These Adc would play like ADC are supposed to play: stay at range, out of danger, watch your positioning in case you got to reload - a weakness that is compensated somewhere else in the kit.

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Twitch carries a lot of ammo (That's one of his in-game quotes)

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

But he never reloads... Well, crossbow bolts are not that big actually. It's really easy to walk around with a lot of that if you got the pockets for it.

Damn, I KNEW I had forgotten someone in the list above... Just have not played against or with that rat in ages... forgot he even exists.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

I agree all magic users in this game need to be deleted becasue its not real enough. In fact lets actually combine my idea with yours and just make this game the next CoD.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I wonder if you even read the post properly.

Then I wonder if you have any idea what "internal logic" means.

Even in a world that has a system that includes magic, random people who are not magicians by ANY means do not suddenly have access to infinite bullets in their guns. All you end up with with this is "shitty videogame logic" which leads to "bad and generic design".

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Your just looking for something to bitch about at this point. I can do this bullshit too

How do magic users infinitely attack with their basic abilities? And since they can infinitely attack with basic abilities, why do all magic uses have a set time they can use their other spells? Should Magic users have a cool down on their auto attacks as well?

Idk why you think the reload system is good, most people are claiming that to be why Jihn is weak. Auto attack based champion not doing anything for 2 or more seconds isn't helpful.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

First of all it's "You're". "You are just looking". It's kind of hard to take someone serious who makes mistakes that are usually thaught to prevent in elementary school.

How magic users attack? They use up their own mage-specific ammo system that is MANA. Also, Cooldowns are also very simple in their concept: Imagine you have to lift a weight 30 times. If you power through the whole thing in 30 seconds you have proven extraordinary strenght, but you will be completly exhausted right after that. Now, if you take a little break after every time you lift the weight it's all a lot easier, don't you think?

Also, the reload system compensates for the strenght these champions can show WHEN they are attacking. Graves deals massive damage with his two shots, Jhin has monstrous scalings - a reason why he is percieved as weak because games often do not last long enough for him to reach his full potential. In lategame he is an absolute beast, especially the Missing HP bonus on the fourth shot.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

Ah yes go for the grammar mistake when you have no real reply.

"Cooldowns are also very simple in their concept: Imagine you have to lift a weight 30 times. If you power through the whole thing in 30 seconds you have proven extraordinary strenght, but you will be completly exhausted right after that."

So when do magic users reach this while using basic attacks. They can't use any other spell infinitely but basic attacks. Why do they become "exhausted" with one use of a magic ability and immediately need a rest, but can continue their basic attack non stop?

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

The pointing out of the grammar mistake was followed by my reply which was made up more than 80% of the post. You even react to my replies when you quote me. START MAKING SOME SENSE DUDE xD Also I took it first because it was the first word of your post - it only makes sense to reply to the first thing first, don't you think?

Simple, because their basic attacks are covered by their natural mana generation. Look at Veigar's Q. A fast projectile with strong damage that costs a set amount of Mana. The waaaaay weaker and slower basic attack would cost a lot less mana then, which is only logical - the cost of this "ability" being so low it does not affect their effective mana pool or endurance (if we speak in more realistic terms).

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

You're, you happy, just using grammar to try to derail this post because you don't know what you're talking about.

Almost all the champion you listed are created and balanced around being consistent auto attack threats. And as I stated earlier when you add this reload to someone with that Identity it gives them an unnecessary weakness. You just sound like a typical boards user that hates adc's, because that's the popular thing to do, and are just naming off something to be a blanket nerf under the guise of "video game logic"

As far as the rest of your reply goes, to use your own metaphor. When you barbell curl a weight so heavy it exhaust you, you don't jump up on a pull up bar and start cranking them out. A magic users auto attack is still a spell, and at no point during the casting of spells are they so "exhausted" that they can no longer auto attack. And if you are going to say that it is because it doesn't require that much power to use, then just how much weaker do you want to make their auto attacks in game?

Kouga2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oYofKI06,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-02-06T18:43:37.226+0000) All you end up with with this is "shitty videogame logic" which leads to "bad and generic design".

No, what you end up with is video game design. It isn't innately bad just because it doesn't fit real world logic.

Almost every major FPS game, even the ones that include "reloading" or "ammo" still give you infinite ammo on your basic/secondary weapon, such as your pistol.

They also usually give you regenerating health.. because if you stand still long enough, those bullet holes will close all by themselves.

Giving ranged Champions who happen to use guns a mandatory "ammo" system would be bad design, unless the entire game system (including items, damage, stats, etc) was based around this kind of philosophy.

It'd be like saying you shouldn't be able to run at full speed without a stamina meter.

Or the whole argument of "why do Flying champions take damage from ground-based effects" such as Morgana's tormented soil.

This overly-critical pedantic bullshit is boring and needs to stop.

Princess Emma1 votes

Realism in video games should stay where they are. no need to change them. If thematic consistency already makes 0 sense, it might as well stay that way.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

So if a system has its flaws we should never even bother to improve it and stagnate forever? I think Illaoi would like to have a word with you...

Princess Emma1 votes

Things don't make sense for game play reasons are fine of course. Things that don't make sense for no reason at all are subject to change.

Don't get a bad idea of me though. I'm not saying anything you have stated this entire thread is wrong or shouldn't happen.

Arcade Andrew1 votes

What about heimer? He has an infinite amount of wrenches?

Ellphi1 votes

Reloading mechanic means each shot counts for more which lends itself to balance problems because in general burst damage is more useable than damage over time

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Well, tell that to Jinx who can bust yo ass with crit rockets that are pretty much "burst over time".

Reloading on the other hand opens up a window of opportunity to take the marksman down. Quite a nice way to introduce counterplay to this class of champions who's main damage output is not dodgeable.

Ellphi1 votes

They need items to do that

It's part of the reason AA-based ADCs are weak early game, and that they've fallen out of meta to casters like Lucian/Ezreal

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Reloading mechanic means each shot counts for more which lends itself to balance problems because in general burst damage is more useable than damage over time

But ADCs already have the same amount of burst as APCs. Id have to do the math again, but i proved it that a 250AD 100%crit, 1.25attack speed pre-rework GP did more damage in 10 seconds than a 1000AP ziggs.

Ellphi1 votes

ADCs need items to do that. Games are shorter than ever before, AA-based ADCs are already out of meta because it takes so long for them to scale in.

Top meta ADCs = Lucian/MF/Ez/Graves, all of them are casters e.g. essentially an AD mage

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

The 1000 AP Zigs in the example he brough up also needs items to do that. He doesn't get AP for free, yo...

Ellphi1 votes

Casters are stronger mid/early game because they get a lot of immediate benefit from items.

AA-based ADCs need quite a few items before their scaling kicks in, just an IE by itself isn't going to be cost efficient

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