Why wasn't Demolish used for an Ohmwrecker rework instead of being a rune?

Tèrminus·Nov 29, 2017·28 votes·3,543 views

Instead of the very niche "disable turret for 3 seconds" thing, they could've given it Demolish's effect. Could probably even lower the CD on it since you have to itemize for it and Ohmwrecker doesn't give any offensive capability.

Also, the idea of letting Ohmwrecker actually wreck turrets instead of just shutting them off for 3 seconds is nice. Mostly because Ohmwrecker's a tank item, and tanks can already tank more turret shots than Ohmwrecker negates anyway...

38 Comments

LordGeovanniNov 30, 20174 votes

Only thing ohm wrecker needs is 150 more health and 10 more armor for a decent item. 200 more health 20-30 more armor for a strong item even if the cost has to be raised also point runner on completed point runer item needs to be increased to 25% movement speed and remove let the build up be over .75 seconds or remove it completely

TèrminusNov 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Only thing ohm wrecker needs is 150 more health and 10 more armor for a decent item. 200 more health 20-30 more armor for a strong item even if the cost has to be raised also point runner on completed point runer item needs to be increased to 25% movement speed and remove let the build up be over .75 seconds or remove it completely

Adding more stats won't make it more attractive, since it still lacks the ability to really do anything a tank can't already do. If you can afford Ohmwrecker, you can just buy any other HP+Armor item and tank the couple shots that Ohmwrecker would've prevented.

If it had Demolish's effect, that plus its stat combination would in theory make it a choice against AD top laners who want to roam, since you can resist their damage AND threaten their turret if they roam.

Auz the RipperNov 30, 20171 votes

You make it stat and/or slot efficient enough, tank’ll buy it.

Votable JesterNov 30, 20171 votes

Yeah but that shouldn't be the entire reason you buy the item. It should remain at least a little niche.

LordGeovanniDec 1, 20171 votes

It will still be neiche if you go with the smaller numbers because defense by itself is bad none the less a bad stat item. And btw Ohm Wrecker is more for fighters than it is for tanks

Z3SleeperDec 1, 20171 votes

item 3065

Votable JesterDec 2, 20171 votes

I've been seeing less of that actually and Riot specifically said they didn't want it to just be a stat-stick item.

RiotRiot MapleNectarNov 30, 20173 votes

Oh shit...they're onto us! We actually tested this exact idea a few weeks back. No idea yet if it'll end up shipping, or if some other form of Ohmwrecker change, but it's definitely an item that's slated for an update.

Sonic AdventureNov 30, 20171 votes

How about this? : )

ModThe DjinnNov 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oVpTVTv1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-11-30T17:46:18.521+0000)

Oh shit...they're onto us! We actually tested this exact idea a few weeks back. No idea yet if it'll end up shipping, or if some other form of Ohmwrecker change, but it's definitely an item that's slated for an update.

Out of curiosity -- did it stack with Demolish, override it, reduce it's cooldown, or replace it? Mainly curious because I played Demolish Health Sion the other day, and he already hit towers like a truck. :D

RiotRiot MapleNectarNov 30, 20172 votes

It overrode it, so if you planned on buying Ohmwrecker you could opt into a different rune.

Shadow HazardNov 30, 20172 votes

For the sake of seeing "how bad can it get" did you test it stacking?

LankPantsNov 30, 20172 votes

So the options in the Resolve tree became even shittier? Amazing.

RiotRiot MapleNectarNov 30, 20171 votes

We're looking at the runes system as a very iterative feature for League. We plan on improving it and iterating on it to make it better with time. Resolve being one of the main trees which could use some work to create more appealing choices.

OleandervineNov 30, 20171 votes

More appealing choices are desperately needed in that third line with Iron Skin, Mirror Shell, and Conditioning. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick Mirror Shell or Iron Skin, because what they offer is INCREDIBLY niche and those who can trigger it without a Soraka or Nami are limited.

LankPantsNov 30, 20171 votes

Resolve being one of the main trees which could use some work to create more appealing choices.

That's the understatement of the century. There's two good lesser runes in the entire tree, Conditioning and Overgrowth. These are the only two runes you ever actually want.

I don't think Mirror Shell, Revitalise or Iron Skin are ever the correct choices on anyone bar Galio who has a niche rune all to himself and Second Wind is a rune you're sometimes forced into VS things like Panth but you feel shit about. Revitalise is honestly the worst trap in the game, it looks like it should be good on Soraka or something but the numbers are so bad it's actually better to just ignore it on everyone.

Then there's the first tier, which is completely abysmal. You chose the least crap of three garbage runes for your champ. All of them are too niche and honestly just bad.

Resolve doesn't just need some work, it needs a complete overhaul to the majority of the runes in the tree.

DessemNov 30, 20171 votes

As far as I understand it, Revitalise strengthens your heals/shields even if used on allies, making it a choice for Soraka, Nami, Sona, Karma etc.

Font of Life triggers off of lots of support abilities too, so it makes it easy to spread heals and trigger Ardent Censer.

I do agree if you're a tank, the tree feels rather lacking. Tenacity is nice, but Precision gives Tenacity too, alongside damage amp and a heal on takedowns; useful for a tank in a teamfight.

The middle runes are hard to appreciate, the lower runes are actually pretty good.

LankPantsDec 1, 20171 votes

As far as I understand it, Revitalise strengthens your heals/shields even if used on allies, making it a choice for Soraka, Nami, Sona, Karma etc.

Unless your target is <40% the rune doesn't do anything. These champs get no other real bonuses from a Resolve spec since Font honestly just isn't that good. All of these champs would prefer either Sorcery/Dom or Sorcery/Insight over Sorcery/Resolve.

I do agree if you're a tank, the tree feels rather lacking. Tenacity is nice, but Precision gives Tenacity too, alongside damage amp and a heal on takedowns; useful for a tank in a teamfight.

Tenacity is actually a very weak stat for tanks, they take it especially out of the jungle but only because the other options are so poor. Tenacity is a stronger stat for bruisers who need to constantly AA rather than tanks who tend to have high impact spells.

The middle runes are hard to appreciate, the lower runes are actually pretty good.

The lower runes aren't the worst ever but they force you into a path almost every game. You're a jungle tank, your only option is Overgrowth. You're in a farm lane, Overgrowth. VS Jayce, Second Wind. There's really no actual choice here.

DessemDec 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Unless your target is <40% the rune doesn't do anything. These champs get no other real bonuses from a Resolve spec since Font honestly just isn't that good. All of these champs would prefer either Sorcery/Dom or Sorcery/Insight over Sorcery/Resolve.

Now that is just blatantly false: the description reads: "Heals and shields you cast are 5% stronger, increased to 10% on targets below 40% health." I agree Font isn't very good, and I think Revitalise would be a more competitive choice if the Resolve tree wasn't so bad, but...

Revitalise definitely does something when above 40%.

Tenacity is actually a very weak stat for tanks, they take it especially out of the jungle but only because the other options are so poor. Tenacity is a stronger stat for bruisers who need to constantly AA rather than tanks who tend to have high impact spells.

The lower runes aren't the worst ever but they force you into a path almost every game. You're a jungle tank, your only option is Overgrowth. You're in a farm lane, Overgrowth. VS Jayce, Second Wind. There's really no actual choice here.

Yeah, agreed there. The Resolve tree is generally lacklustre, offering little exciting options.

LankPantsDec 1, 20171 votes

Now that is just blatantly false: the description reads: "Heals and shields you cast are 5% stronger, increased to 10% on targets below 40% health." I agree Font isn't very good, and I think Revitalise would be a more competitive choice if the Resolve tree wasn't so bad, but...

Revitalise definitely does something when above 40%.

A 5% increase, do you understand what that means? If you heal for 200, you now heal for 210. That's really doing nothing. You'd actually get more healing/second by specing Insperation and taking 5% CDR.

DeathBurstNov 30, 20171 votes

Revitalize is core on Mordekaiser, and arguably a good fit for a lot of people like Fiora, Aatrox, Nasus, Olaf, etc.

Second Wind is a super strong Rune to splash. It's basically written "you can't lose lane" on this Rune...

I agree that Mirror Shell/Iron Skin are super underwhelming, though.

LankPantsDec 1, 20171 votes

Revitalise has two problems, it doesn't do anything when the target being healed is at 40%+, 5% bonus healing is a joke and it fails to be a usable rune on many tanks severely restricting the pool of usable runes.

Second Wind is an entirely reactive rune, you only take it into lanes where you need it, so the level of actual choice and customisation on this tier is pretty much null.

DeathBurstJan 6, 20182 votes

So well, I'm a bit late to the party, but this is still relevant.

it doesn't do anything when the target being healed is at 40%+, 5% bonus healing is a joke

5% healing is nowhere near a joke. If a Rune was giving 5% increased damage without condition, it would be a must-pick, and none of the damage amplifying Runes EVER reach 15%, not even when the conditions are much more difficult to meet than 40% HP. Last Stand is only 12% under 30% HP, so a smaller bonus with a harsher condition, and it's the biggest increase available. Of course, the parallel isn't perfect, everyone has (at least some) damage, but not everyone has heals and shields, but that's why Revitalize values are also higher. Saying it's a joke is just ridiculous.

it fails to be a usable rune on many tanks severely restricting the pool of usable runes.

Even Tanks without heal or shield at all still have an interesting and generic option on that line: Overgrowth, so there is no dead Rune, and that's enough. It's important to have SOME interesting choices among your 6 Runes, but not EVERY choice should be equally interesting. It's just as if you were complaining about long range poke champ always picking Comet and painting that as a lack of customization. No it's not. It's good to have some Runes that are clear fits and clearly superior choices, as long as there is some customization elsewhere. Not to mention that someone like Braum, for instance, should definitely pick Revitalize because it also works on heals/shields from items, even though he has no heal/shield of his own.

Second Wind is an entirely reactive rune, you only take it into lanes where you need it, so the level of actual choice and customisation on this tier is pretty much null.

That's just nonsense... "I can pick a different Rune depending on my match-up so I have no customization possible" isn't even remotely logical. And this isn't even taking into account that the situation is far from binary ---either you need Second Wind or not. So in some relatively hard match-ups, but not the hardest of all, where Second Wind would be nice to have but not absolutely necessary, you really have a choice: opting for an easy lane versus betting on the late game with Overgrowth.

LankPantsJan 7, 20181 votes

5% healing is nowhere near a joke. If a Rune was giving 5% increased damage without condition, it would be a must-pick, and none of the damage amplifying Runes EVER reach 15%, not even when the conditions are much more difficult to meet than 40% HP. Last Stand is only 12% under 30% HP, so a smaller bonus with a harsher condition, and it's the biggest increase available.

5% healing is a complete joke, every single champion in the game sans maybe Soraka deals more damage than they do healing. Take a look at the actual numbers for a second, let's look at Sona, her heal on W is 110+(25%AP), so this rune gives an increase of 5.5+(1.25%AP). That really is pathetic, the flat increase is only 22 AP worth of healing at max level and 22 AP is far better than this rune since it also gives you damage elsewhere.

If you just look at the flat numbers and how pathetic they are quite easily.

Even Tanks without heal or shield at all still have an interesting and generic option on that line: Overgrowth, so there is no dead Rune, and that's enough. It's important to have SOME interesting choices among your 6 Runes, but not EVERY choice should be equally interesting. It's just as if you were complaining about long range poke champ always picking Comet and painting that as a lack of customization. No it's not. It's good to have some Runes that are clear fits and clearly superior choices, as long as there is some customization elsewhere.

I main Sejuani jungle, please tell me what my choices in this failure of a tree are. On the first tier the only decent option is Perseverance, which is still terrible. On the second tier the only rune worth taking is Conditioning. On the third tier the only usable rune is Overgrowth and as a Keystone my only option is Aftershock. There's no actual options in the tree, infact the best thing you can do is to ignore Resolve and run Precision and Domination with Fleet Footwork because the Resolve tree is completely pathetic.

Not to mention that someone like Braum, for instance, should definitely pick Revitalize because it also works on heals/shields from items, even though he has no heal/shield of his own.

Nobody does this, try again. It's his least used rune on this slot by a significant margin.

DeathBurstJan 7, 20181 votes

Your calculation for Sona doesn't take into account her shield. Or the AP she gets from items. And there are tons of champs who heals more than they deal damage anyway.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.totalHeal&order=descend

Zac, Vladimir, Aatrox, Warwick, Fiddlestick, Sion (and he even has a shield on top of that that isn't counted in the stats), Maokai, Tryndamere, Nunu, Gragas, Nami. Mundo, Nidalee, Xin are also damn close to even. Half of them are melee champs that should take Resolve secondary even if they don't take it primary, and they should totally use Revitalize. And this isn't an exhaustive list, it's just looking at the first 25. Sona herself is at 11K damage for 10K healing, and she probably has something like 20K shielding on top of it but once again, shields do not appear in stats, so yeah, she should definitely use Revitalize too (well, assuming she wants to go into Resolve at all, which she doesn't. But that's totally normal for a squishy mage support).

Yeah, let's look at the numbers, that's far more useful than your baseless claims.

And yes, Sejuani doesn't have choices in Resolve. But she has decent Runes. In fact, she has better Runes than Fleet Footwork. You don't believe me? Well, all 3rd-party stats websites say so: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sejuani/runes/ and http://euw.op.gg/champion/sejuani/statistics/jungle and also http://champion.gg/champion/Sejuani/Jungle Again, let's look at the numbers, shall we? For choices and customization, you have your secondary. Again, it's important to have SOME choices, not that ALL choices are equal.

Oh and what about Braum? https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Braum/runes/ Apparently the optimal choice is Second Wind. So I'll give you that, maybe Braum shouldn't use Revitalize. Still, Revitalize is 2 points higher in winrate, compared to Overgrowth, "one of the only 2 good Runes in the tree". Overgrowth is the only one of the three to be below 50% winrate.

Well, I think the numbers are pretty clear...

LankPantsJan 7, 20181 votes

Your calculation for Sona doesn't take into account her shield. Or the AP she gets from items. And there are tons of champs who heals more than they deal damage anyway.

You understand why many of those champs don't actually benifit from this rune right? Zac Aatrox and Sion all have self healing that doesn't benefit from this rune, when they revive they have their HP set to an amount and the game heals them to that amount. If Zac has 4k HP and revives at 50% he'll heal for 2k HP in the endgame stats, nothing in the game will change this 2k HP value assuming you're not hitting his blobs. Vlad also deals more than he heals and in a fight has to deal more than he heals unless he's hitting absurd MR targets since his healing is a % of his damage, also increasing Vlads damage by 5% would increase his healing anyway.

And yes, Sejuani doesn't have choices in Resolve. But she has decent Runes. In fact, she has better Runes than Fleet Footwork. You don't believe me? Well, all 3rd-party stats websites say so: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sejuani/runes/ and http://euw.op.gg/champion/sejuani/statistics/jungle and also http://champion.gg/champion/Sejuani/Jungle Again, let's look at the numbers, shall we? For choices and customization, you have your secondary. Again, it's important to have SOME choices, not that ALL choices are equal.

It's not just Sejuani, it's every single jungle tank in the game. If you are a jungle tank, one of the primary classes Resolve is aimed at there are no options in Resolve for you. This whole tree needs to be torn apart and re-done preferably as two trees. It just fails at its job and the runes in this tree are such terrible designs compared to most other trees.

Sej is however the best example to show how bad Resolve is. At the highest level of play she simply ignores Resolve more often than she takes it. The current best setup is Precision/Domination.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Sejuani

The problem is that this is a bad and under-tuned rune, but when you put it in the context of a complete garbage tree lacking in any other options it actually looks OK. If the tree was actually decent noone would take this rune.

DeathBurstJan 7, 20181 votes

Well, I just checked in the Training Tool. Zac does benefit from Revitalize, including on his revival. In fact, since you're at 0% HP, you're guaranteed the improved 15% Revitalize. And Revitalize has always worked on self-cast heal. Too bad, next time check your facts before complaining.

And don't blindly imitate the pros. At all MMRs, Aftershock is statistically better than Fleet Footwork, with higher winrates. Even in Diamond+ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Sejuani/runes/ A pro who's basically certain he will be the best in his team but will have to carry inferior players doesn't play the same way as a random guy in SoloQ, and you're just gimping yourself.

LankPantsJan 7, 20181 votes

And don't blindly imitate the pros. At all MMRs, Aftershock is statistically better than Fleet Footwork, with higher winrates. Even in Diamond+

The pros are doing this because it's more efficient. This may be hard to believe but pros tend to be good at finding the most efficient ways to play. I also understand why pros are doing this, the Resolve non-keystone runes are really bad as is the HP bonus. Compared to the 3 runes you could grab in Precision and the AS bonus Resolve is terrible, even if Aftershock is the better Keystone, the tradeoff is completely worth it.

As for why it's got a worse winrate, it's new. In fact 2 weeks ago Fleet Footwork had a 42% winrate, it's improved significantly as people learned to play with FF Sej.

A pro who's basically certain he will be the best in his team but will have to carry inferior players doesn't play the same way as a random guy in SoloQ, and you're just gimping yourself.

What world do you live in? Do you think non-pro challenger players in Korea where this strategy originated are bad? Do you think they're significantly worse in a soloqueue environment than pros? I can tell you now the answer to both of these questions is no. There's a reason why Korean teams recruit from soloqueue.

DeathBurstJan 7, 20181 votes

No word about Revitalize? Strange...

ModThe DjinnNov 30, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oVpTVTv1,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2017-11-30T18:07:41.318+0000)

It overrode it, so if you planned on buying Ohmwrecker you could opt into a different rune.

Huh. That actually surprises me, as one of the interesting things about itemization is, in my mind, that it's often reactive to the game's needs. The fact that you plan your rune choice ahead of time for a purchase that may end up being a bad choice with how the game develops feels off to me.

Unless, of course, you pivoted Demolisher onto the item and kept it off runes, that that also feels bad, as it's a really cool thing to snag on a bunch of characters and feels really satisfying.

If you revisit it, I'd be interested in trying tying the cooldowns together such that purchasing Ohmwrecker when you have Demolisher reduces the cooldown significantly, so that you can get 2 hits off if you're able to stick on a tower for 10-15 seconds (i.e. cooldown reduced by Y seconds for each additional tower hit if you have Demolish). That might preserve the feeling that having both is viable without limiting your itemization/pre-game choice, or letting you just burst down towers at a touch.

DeadUnbornNov 30, 20171 votes

I think it would be cooler it replaced it and you gave us another rune for the resolved tree. I see a lot of champions currently taking it in which it seems odd or out of place (mainly because the rune doesn't synergize with whatever they are doing, like having it on a leona or bltizcrank.

As a side note I also really dislike the runes that give you armor or mr when you are healing, and think they should be changed for more fun runes that don't depend on knowing before hand who you are playing against (I play blind pick a lot)

LordGeovanniDec 1, 20171 votes

how about try something more simple and give the item decent stats. top defensive items are garbage but you can afford to make more garbage defensive items, and why gut Knights Vow's stats because Marksmen were becoming too tanky? You gut the wrong side of the item. Why is the response to marksmen being too tanky 'Okay marksmen are too tanky lets gut the tanks defense'

DemonBoneJanglesNov 29, 20172 votes

simply adjusting it would likely be sufficient, instead of removing the deactivate turret for 3 seconds, you could likely combine the effect to make ohmwrecker more effective, example: after a delay (the time it takes to fully charge the demolish ability) your next basic attack against the turret deals increased damage (with the same modifications as Demolish) and disables the turret for 3-5 seconds based on level (with 5 seconds starting at level 16)

LunarEdge7Nov 30, 20171 votes

I like that idea but I still like Ohmwrecker's current effect. For sum cheesy early dives that tilt them "WHO USES THIS?! -triggered-" xD

Professor WardNov 30, 20171 votes

The problem with effects like these is that they 100% get the zzrot effect

ZZROT Effect: Item must have mediocre stats due to utility. Said Item also is either too strong, or too weak for most of its existence. If said item does become healthy, it becomes extremely niche.

AZ FrostNov 30, 20171 votes

Riot needs to look at items and see what items are NOT being used at all (even very little) and figure out why. Why would a item they made never be used? Why is it still a "bad" item. I want to be the cool guy in the game that uses ohm wrecker in a game, but there is no spots for it in a optimal build.

Who is in charge there? Get ur ducks in a row...

RaveolutionNov 30, 20171 votes

I think it would be pretty awesome if they added an item similar to Ohmwrecker's effect for assassins that was basically a small amount of stats, maybe some ad and then had the effect, "towers will not target you for 2s upon activation". Allowing an assassin to dive effectively, at the cost of say the lethality or magic shield you'd get from a different item to try to make plays. And the activation would only work for that champion so a gank would still be risky for multiple people.