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Adding more permanent maps

Saixos··4 votes·947 views

This post is a response to Ghostcrawler on ask.fm. 300 characters is not enough. Feel free to read for fun if you want.

While many of my posts don't have too much thought put into them, this one I know a significant amount about, as I have worked on over 100 team pvp maps to varying degrees. Because it lies close to my heart I will be resending this to you on your ask.fm until you inform me somehow that you've read it. A proper response is unnecessary and unexpected with how busy you are and how time consuming responding is. My only goal is to open your mind and with it, Riot's mind to new possibilities. "Hi!" would be fine.

The main reason why TT and Dominion are not as popular as Rift is because they are the same map. Comparing to champions, Vel'Koz and Xerath are the same champion. They deal damage to multiple champions with longranged skillshots from a distance, and have a bit of CC. The few things that set them apart are very small.

Rift, TT, Dominion are all maps where there are 2 teams in an equal planning situation, fighting macro strategically with mechanics to win. TT has less people in a game, but it's still the same thing. Dominion has a different objectives system, but it's still the same thing. What sets the maps apart is only the outer skin, at the core when players play these maps they're doing the exact same thing. The only reason why Rift is most popular is because that's what Riot has centered league around. If TT was the map for ranked, LCS, balancing, then it'd be where Rift is now.

It is fine to have that one core with lots of different skins. HotS uses that system for maps I believe.

ARAM isn't included in this same core though. The random aspect along with the constant teamfighting, linear nature, and mayhem of ARAM make ARAM a different game. It's a map where 2 teams are put in an equal random situation, fighting with micro mechanics and basic strategy to win. TT, Dominion, and Rift are not really chaotic, but ARAM is.

All the temporary gamemodes that Riot has released so far have usually fallen because of them being the same core as well. URF and Nemesis, One for All, all the same as Rift. Poro King is a bit of a hybrid between Rift and ARAM. Ascension and doom bots are the only ones with a touch of hybrid to something new, but since everything else is still the exact same and even a bit simplified it has no effect overall.

If Riot wants to add more maps, then they need to break the cycle of having them be the same core. On top of that, they need to condense queues so that Rift is less spread out. By removing Classic Draft for TB Draft and Blind for TB Classic we'd be good to go.

For example, Riot could add a map where 3 teams fight in a planned situation with strategy. This gamemode would need to be supported by LCS with some kind of high level tournament to ensure the development of strategy and an end-goal for players of the gamemode. The added dynamic of 3 different parties would change the core of the game. This map could hold a consistent strong playerbase as a result, definitely if LCS supported. If not though the increased strategic demand along with the similarities with Rift's core could lead it to being less popular than expected. It would always hold a playerbase bigger than TT and Dominion though.

The most guaranteed approach in my opinion would be to put teams in uneven circumstances. For example, a 5v3 map. The 5 get random champions shown to the enemy, and then the 3 get to choose champions to face the 5. The 3 also get significant advantages in the map itself. This approach would be guaranteed to have a completely unique core as a gamemode, and could uphold a strong playerbase at least roughly equal to ARAM if not significantly higher depending on Ranked and LCS interference.

To summarize, League of Legends has the option to have additional maps/gamemodes which can uphold a strong playerbase for a long time and be played regularly if the maps/gamemodes change the core of their gameplay to offer the players something new and unique each time.

10 Comments

Decrit3 votes

I agree that, if there should be different maps, then there should be a different core.

But then stop for a second and think... what does that mean?

Champions, spells, interactions are tightly woven with summoner' s rift as a base. Taking it in a whole different scenario means not only that you have to recreate said scenario, but that you have to translate the champions to said scenario. Furthermore, you have to sustain said scenario.

Basically, you have to almost create another game.

Now, let' s see Ascension - no farming, no ganks, almost no neutral objective control ( you could not smite xerath if i am right..?) , only hitting and quick tactical skirmish decisions. This basically enhanced a core component of the game without changing too much the ambient by itself, but if you were to sustain it then it would require a totally different asset of balancing numbers only for that mode! This leads to the biggest elephant in the room here: it hardly adds game time or population to the game itself. You would say that adding stuff might attract more people, and you are right... but said people might even be picked off from other modes. Basically it would mean that Riot is stealing their own costumers. Probably said costumers are more happy on the new mode but that comes with a loss... is that loss worth it?

Then, there is another problem which is more design-development wise: focus.

What is league of legends? what riot wants to do with it? What a designer should expect? Having a cohesive mentality ( and i mean a mentality where people "get" each other, not a hivemind mentality where everyone thinks the same about a thing ) is one of the biggest requirements for leading powerful and effective projects. Else, you get stuff like the Cassiopeia rework.

Saixos1 votes

The game of summoners rift is one where everything is balanced around everything else, with environment and items generally being fixed. It's not that difficult to switch it to the other way around and balance the items and the map itself around the champions. For example on ARAM snowballs were added to help out immobile melees (how successful they were is debatable, and I still think snowballs shouldn't give true vision or even vision at all). It wouldn't be that difficult to make warmogs melee only to help Soraka, or add an item that lets you place a targetable 5s duration ward to help lee sin.

Then to your next point, Riot has often said they want to entertain the current population of LoL. If they wanted to add population, they would prioritize the new player experience much more. Adding more maps adds tons of game time in that players who get bored of Rift and ARAM have a completely new experience. Said people will get picked off of other modes, but that's not a bad thing. Riot isn't stealing their customers, they're giving their customers more options and fun. There is no loss other than a moderate population loss, and LoL can handle that population loss. Most players would just play multiple gamemodes.

Focus is irrelevant. The only question is whether Riot should add more maps. The last point is not relevant to the post at all.

Minarde3 votes

I think this is the first time I've seen someone claim ARAM is more distinct with respect to SR than Dominion. It's certainly an interesting perspective to take. However, there's a number of quirks in your argument.

For one thing, it's highly extreme to reduce SR, TT, and Dom all down to "combine macro strategy with mechanics to win." At that level of simplification, Summoner's Rift, basketball, and Battlefield are all the same game. In all of those games, players of various specialties assemble into opposing teams and face off using individual mechanics. The execution of the idea is just as important to consider.

You have a more reasonable argument claiming TT is roughly equivalent to SR, but Dominion has a completely different approach. SR is fundamentally about sieging and eventually storming the enemy's base. In contrast, that rarely happens in Dominion. There's a much stronger emphasis on short-term tactics in Dom compared to SR. I'd argue that ARAM is more similar to SR than Dom. Aside from the random champs, players still siege and then storm the opposing base. Furthermore, you claim that Ascension and Doom Bots had touches of innovation to them despite the game modes being "simplified Dominion with Baron" and "Co-Op vs AI on Hardcore difficulty," respectively.

As a quick aside, replacing standard draft with TBDraft is a relatively acceptable change. On the other hand, TB classic is a shoddy substitute for blind pick. The two versions of champ select appeal to different niches. TB classic works well for people intent on playing one particular champ in one particular position, yet is lacking in allowing players to adjust to the teamcomp. (There's additional problems with a significant portion of the playerbase not knowing the difference between "support" role and "support" position, but that's a separate issue).

Finally, your example game modes. How do you determine the potential popularity of a 3-team map or a 3v5 map? You claim they'd have "bigger playerbases than TT and Dom" or "roughly equal to ARAM." What evidence are you basing these claims on? Moreover, you're inexplicably giving these maps ranked/LCS support while assuming no support for TT/Dom/ARAM. That's not a useful comparison in the slightest. (Lack of support is coincidentally a major reason in TT and Dom's lack of popularity.)

The underlying issue behind alternate game modes is not simply whether they're distinct enough from each other. Of course, that's absolutely a concern and a good reason why URF, LotPK, BMB, and so on wouldn't make good permanent modes. Nevertheless, the existing permanent queues are already fairly distinct game experiences. They wouldn't still be maintaining playerbases after years of nearly non-existent official support if the game modes didn't offer something that SR doesn't.

No, the main issue is that Riot does not consistently support non-SR maps. Ghostcrawler's answer illustrates the disconnect. TT and Dom obviously won't surge to rival SR's playerbase even with a exorbitant amount of dev resources. The current situation is a consequence of years of Riot's neglect; there is absolutely no way the problems could be solved quickly. The former and existing playerbases are jaded, and the prospective playerbase is biased. Reviving and growing TT and Dom requires steady, consistent support over months, if not years, to regain player trust and alter public opinion. Expecting a magic solution that quickly rejuvenates those modes is simply being naive.

tl;dr: TT and Dom are not unpopular because they are the same as SR. They're unpopular because Riot has spent years pretending SR is the only map. Consistent dev support is the key to maintaining a playerbase.

Retillin2 votes

Riot has shown no desire to support TT and Dom. I would be hard pressed to believe they would care enough to support a new map.

Saixos1 votes

https://ask.fm/RiotGhostcrawler/answers/135862827915

That's in part why I made this post, along with some other things GC and other Rioters have said about additional maps. I think if they made a map which found success and popularity, then they would support it.

Teeter Dance2 votes

Adding a 3rd team doesnt change the core of the game. Its the same game, but with different objectives and more enemies.

Whether you create a new map or create a new "core" game, it WILL segment the player base which detracts from the player experience.

This may sound harsh, but if you want to play another game, play another game.

Minarde2 votes

Whether you create a new map or create a new "core" game, it WILL segment the player base which detracts from the player experience.

Would it be noticeable though? Segmenting the playerbase will happen just due to players having more options, but isn't League's playerbase large enough to support some fragmentation? There's also the possibility of attracting a new audience that the original gameplay wouldn't. It doesn't seem too bad for League got more longevity in exchange for a marginally worse experience on SR.

Teeter Dance1 votes

Your proposed new gameplay to attract new players isn't new gameplay though. A new map with one more team won't attract new players if they dont already like MOBAs.

Dominion and TT are already existing, and I would much rather see the competitive 3v3 scene with Riots support before funneling more resources into ANOTHER option.

Minarde2 votes

I'm not OP. I'm just questioning whether Riot actively supporting modes besides SR would truly have a net detrimental effect on League.

Teeter Dance1 votes

Wow. Shows how much I pay attention when postimg from my phone. HA.

I would say right now, developing another map would take CONSIDERABLE support from the community first.

ARAM is successful because it was played for years as a custom game, and the rules were pretty much already established.

Maybe an Ascension game mode with another map?

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