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Quinn is in a Vulnerable position

Saixos··159 votes·40,160 views

I'll try and keep this short. Over at /r/QuinnMains we've been discussing her because of RiotRepertoir stating that he's working on her. Though RiotRepertoir has a good reputation we're still antsy, so we're trying to show Riot what we and everyone else like and dislike about her.

Quinn mains agree:

  • Quinn is buggy and needs bugfixes.

  • Quinn definitely needs to keep her passive, her E, and the transform on her R. Only QoL and number changes. We feel these are the core abilities of her kit and define her as Quinn, for better or worse.

  • We like Quinn for her identity as a duelist and roamer. We would like for her solo lane playstyle to be preserved.

  • Skystrike as it is needs some changes. Opinions on this vary from preferring minor to major changes, to outright removal and compensation. A large number of us would like an escape post-ult, and everyone would like a lower cd.

  • Quinn's W passive is really nice (though the timing between it and passive should be synced), yet the active is dull.

Hopefully with your help we can make sure that any Quinn changes are done well. We'd also like to know some of your opinions on Quinn, playing with her, against her, etc. Since we are the ones playing Quinn, we can't provide that useful info for Riot.

If you want to read up on the discussions that came before this post, you can do so here, here, and a number of other posts in /r/QuinnMains. Also, a big welcome to any lost Quinn mains out there!

Reddit thread

193 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir65 votes

I appreciate your guys' concern with the upcoming Quinn changes, and I do enjoy seeing threads like these that are well thought out and in the spirit of making a character everyone can be happy with.

We're still not quite ready yet to discuss Quinn's upcoming changes in detail, but I'm looking forward to being able to do so. I will say in advance that the above stuff that OP mentions Quinn mains agree on won't necessarily be everything you can expect from the changes, and I do understand that there will inevitably be players that disagree with some of the changes I'll end up making, as is the case with almost every update to a character. In her changes, we're trying to mostly preserve what is cool and fun about the character while hopefully making the whole package make a bit more sense, especially from a gameplay perspective.

I will say that in the update, you can expect her abilities to mostly be the same, with changes here and there to their effects, cast types, numbers, etc.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

And there are bugfixes? Lots of bugfixes?

RiotRiotRepertoir52 votes

I have that reddit thread of Quinn bugs saved as a favorite right now in Chrome. I'm trying to knock them out as I get to them.

Saixos3 votes

The "needs bugfixes" link has detailed information on the E bug if you haven't fixed it already c:

Also :D bugfixes!

EDIT: Also sorry if you get bothered in the office repeatedly by people, figured the more venues of attack we have the likelier we'd be to hit v.v

Ignis02 votes

Will we get bug fixes in patches leading up to the update or do you plan to just do it all at once?

Solidair34 votes

They'll likely come with her update.

darkdill6 votes

This one's not necessarily a bug, but still needs fixing:

When Quinn uses Tag Team, its cooldown doesn't start cycling until after Skystrike is used. This means if you keep Valor out for the full 20 seconds, that essentially extends the cooldown by 20 seconds. The result is that people are highly discouraged from using Quinn's ult for roaming, and generally just want to get rid of Valor as soon as possible to get that cooldown cycling.

Quinn's ultimate needs to be at least changed so that the cooldown begins cycling at the start of the ability, not after you've used up its second activation.

...Unless, of course, it's somehow intentional. If so, that needs to be clarified.

RiotRiotRepertoir5 votes

That is intentional in the Live version, but it will be much less an issue following the update.

Miraweave4 votes

{quoted}

I have that reddit thread of Quinn bugs saved as a favorite right now in Chrome. I'm trying to knock them out as I get to them.

Please don't fix Quinn's bugs. If you do, Valor won't have anything to eat and she'll lose three quarters of her kit because she's lazy and Valor does all the real work!

Eagleheart4 votes

Really excited for the changes, and am open to anything really.

Hopefully it'll be out by the start of preseason :D

RiotRiotRepertoir25 votes

Should hit right around then.

galdamesh27 votes

:o0

you gave a time frame... may god have mercy on your soul if there's any unforeseen complications

Archenz3 votes

If your handeling the rework. I'm sure we have nothing to worry about.

I hope however the PBE testers learnt from the entire skarner fiasco and won't complain at you to buff her into OPness because that's their main xD.

Also, I'm new to League, started around October and really didn't pay attention to the news. When does preseason start? Think its around November.

RiotRiotRepertoir3 votes

Usually sometime around November, give or take a month.

Zedex12 votes

Used to main top lane Quinn.

Gonna be honest and say it was the most fun I've ever had playing top lane. She even got me my first penta in ranked, which turned into a baron steal. Ah, silver plays.

Anyways, then I realized its literally only fun for me. While there are certain champs players claim to lack no counter-play, or are insane to play against (but fun to play as), Quinn is at the top of that list. A good Quinn player will decimate top lane, but only against a melee. She might go even with half ranged/ full ranged champs.

my request is to keep her playable top lane (unless its just not possible and you're trying to return the champ to her intended role), but make her less toxic to play against. Melee champions are nearly invalidated when laning against Quinn. I don't believe thats fair, or fun gameplay in the least bit.

One could argue jungle pressure can shut her down, but her bird nearly invalidates ganks if you have wards.

KoKoboto3 votes

{quoted}

Used to main top lane Quinn.

Gonna be honest and say it was the most fun I've ever had playing top lane. She even got me my first penta in ranked, which turned into a baron steal. Ah, silver plays.

Anyways, then I realized its literally only fun for me. While there are certain champs players claim to lack no counter-play, or are insane to play against (but fun to play as), Quinn is at the top of that list. A good Quinn player will decimate top lane, but only against a melee. She might go even with half ranged/ full ranged champs.

my request is to keep her playable top lane (unless its just not possible and you're trying to return the champ to her intended role), but make her less toxic to play against. Melee champions are nearly invalidated when laning against Quinn. I don't believe thats fair, or fun gameplay in the least bit.

One could argue jungle pressure can shut her down, but her bird nearly invalidates ganks if you have wards.

I'm glad you understand top laner hate, but if they made it so Quinn wasn't as dominating to melees (at least for lane phase) than she wouldn't even be played top, she'd just be like playing an Ezreal or anything top

Only Play Darius3 votes

Maintaining kill pressure on your opponent early on like most lane bullies is one thing. Being able to stop your opponent who can't fight you from farming without putting yourself at risk because you have range is completely different and 100% toxic to play against, because he can't deal with you until he gets items and farming gold to gets said items becomes almost impossible.

People generally don't have a problem with ranged tops. What they hate is shit like Quinn/Vayne/Gnar/Teemo who will right click you to death from 500 units away every time you even think of last hitting and will peel you off every time you engage on them because you're sick of losing 50% of your farm.

Sulghunter2 votes

Vladimir forgot one.

BastionKross3 votes

As someone who enjoys melee top laners, Quinn is one of the picks that I just loathe. There's almost nothing you can do but hope she pushes lane so you can farm under tower. After level 6, Valor is speedy enough to foil most gank attempts if Quinn warded properly.

The silver lining to that thundercloud is that Quinn's kit is so buggy and wonky that most people don't even consider her as a pick, so she's rarely encountered. Now that she's being looked at, I'm worried that a surge in her popularity might make top lane a "no-go" zone for melees for a patch or two until she gets nerfed to the point she can't solo lane anymore. Obviously Quinn mains won't enjoy that scenario.

So I'm hoping Riot takes special care to see that her kit is functional and smooth, but also not oppressive and domineering against a melee opponent.

RiotRiotRepertoir6 votes

I'll expect her to still be a viable solo laner, but we're changing a few things up so that she has some purpose in a game outside of suppressing her lane opponent.

Zedex1 votes

Awesome to hear. I love building me some trinity force in top lane, the bird burst can be insane!

Honest question though, are we to expect her pick or ban tier when she's tweaked ? Just wondering as in the case of the Juggernauts being perma banned for a bit, that same approach would probably throw off a lot of Quinn players.

Hoping you can keep her passive intact, but make it more interactive.

Anyways, I got faith in you, best of luck with the tweaks! Will be waiting with eagerness for it.

RiotRiotRepertoir5 votes

I don't think she'll fall into pick or ban tier. With the juggernauts, we erred on the side of strong (and went a bit too far on that) since those champions felt largely non-functional before. Marksmen are generally much more stable as a group of champions, so we can probably expect to players to pick up and be familiar with their gameplay pretty quickly. Even though Quinn is sometimes seen as non-functional as a marksman, she still has elements as a marksman that make her pretty familiar to play.

exe33 votes

Fingers crossed the changes also include a tightened AA animation so auto-attacks can finally be responsive.

Talith PA3 votes

This might be outside the scope of what you are working on, but now that we've seen The Kindred the whole Valor and Quinn tag team just feels lame in comparison. Is there anyway to further emphasize the whole tag-team aspect instead of merely having a mobile landing platform for Valor?

RiotRiotRepertoir16 votes

We're hoping to hit more of this, but it won't be in the way that Kindred does necessarily.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

This might be a crazy bad idea, but why not make her into a "transform" champion, where her ult allows her to switch between marksmen and fighter, like Nidalee or Elise?

Weegee5 votes

It's unlikely that they'd do that. The problem with Nidalee/Jayce/Elise is that the low cooldown transformation mitigates the weaknesses of each form. That's why Gnar was given a different mechanic which he has less control over.

RiotRiotRepertoir6 votes

In a world where we did a large update, we might consider something like this. However, I think what we've landed on is potentially just as exciting or more.

JäÏÿn5 votes

Would it also be possible to give Valor dance and recall animations? I don't know if the changes will affect duration time as Valor but even so, you're Valor for twenty seconds currently and Mega Gnar only lasts fifteen seconds yet has recall and dance animations. Really I would be so happy if the dance were something like this http://m1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R350x0/U01/ruliweb/559CC05A391B4D0001 .

Also, I remember a Rioter saying that they didn't like the feeling of her splash art. Is she due to get another one?

Valor Bot2 votes

Any chance Quinn will be receiving a visual update to go along with her upcoming changes, maybe in the style of MF's most recent VU? I know IronStylus said he had some unfinished business with her.

Kitten of Evil38 votes

Quinn mains agree:

Quinn is buggy and needs bugfixes.

I'm not even a Quinn main and I agree.

IGotScuttleCrabs8 votes

Most Quinn mains would agree fixing her bugs would make her a fine, balanced, and reasonable pick.

Phanron2 votes

Even though I'm proof myself that you can make Quinn work, thus in a sense "balanced", I am not neglecting that Quinn has her design flaws. Bugfixes are fine and all but that's why I think changes are warranted.

disregardable7 votes

Attacking a Vulnerable target grant Quinn bonus attack speed and movement speed for 3 seconds.

I honestly had no idea she had that passive on her W. But thinking about it now, yeah, I can see it.

ßae4 votes

More upvotesssss Quinn

Ultîma4 votes

I know this is a Balance & Gameplay thread, but I thought I'd come in and share a few thoughts for how I wish Quinn would appear thematically as well as mechanically.

Currently Quinn has a very awkward, crouched posture and wields her crossbow like a pistol when idle, and a more commando-esque animation when she's on the run. Her suit has a lot of neat detail and touches that are completely missed by the player due to the fact that while Quinn looks like a regal scout, she doesn't really move the part.

Another thing that I feel is really awkward about Quinn is how her passive looks; Valor swoops in every once in a while to mark an enemy, and disappears until another mark is set. It would be so much better if Valor remained on the battlefield, circling above as a non-intractable object, only flying upward to reveal enemies in the area upon using W. Currently it's really a shame that one of the hallmark of Quinn's character - her bird - is only glimpsed at in her current format. Valor should constantly exist on the battlefield in one form or another. As an interesting bonus, it would be cool if leveling W gave Valor his own circle of vision as he circled-about overhead.

Also while I love how Quinn's ult works, it looks extremely strange that Quinn just vanishes to let Valor take the lead - and that he suddenly grows twice his size... If you look at some of the earlier Quinn concept arts from IronStylus Quinn wielded a sword. Wouldn't it be cooler if, when using her ultimate, Quinn ditched the small crossbow to head directly into the fight as this agile, dagger--wielding rogue? Her skills could function the same, but Quinn would now be actor and fully display her Demacian skill and training. I think this change would really solidify Quinn as this analog to playing a Rogue in LoL.

Saixos2 votes

I think you'd get along well with Eagleheart.

That being said I'd love it if Valor was permanently present in the battlefield, or just had random small flight animations above Quinn ever now and then. Or even better if her autoattacks would randomly have Valor attack the enemy instead of shooting with her crossbow. But unfortunately I doubt these changes would happen considering the scope of the update, I doubt they have an animator with bunches of spare time to put together this kinda stuff.

CatSith3 votes

They are doing a minor update to marksmen like the juggernaut one soon. I'm pretty sure quinn is one of the adcs in the update.

Saixos19 votes

She is, which is why this was made in the first place c:

We want a change like Ashe, not something like Morde or Cass, so we're doing all we can to help that come true.

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

Quinn definitely needs to keep her passive, her E, and the transform on her R. Only QoL and number changes. We feel these are the core abilities of her kit and define her as Quinn, for better or worse.

I more or less agree been playing her since release mained her in S3 and really picked her back up a lot lately.

Changing her E would be hard to do without something creative like what they did with fiora Q, so I'd prefer they leave it. While Q or W could be changed out for a new skill and she'd still feel like Quinn I think.

Skystrike as it is needs some changes. Opinions on this vary from preferring minor to major changes, to outright removal and compensation. A large number of us would like an escape post-ult, and everyone would like a lower cd.

I'd either like to see it removed or made more relevant than Jinx ult which has like half the CD, when you compare Jinx's execute ult damage to skystrike it's pitiful, or have lower CD, so I don't need to feel a need to build CDR every game <_<, item 3158 have been become a near staple buy on her for me lately cause I can't stand how long the CD on it is (and for more Es).

Phanron2 votes

Vault is both Quinns most defining ability but also the reason she has dificulites in botlane and teamfights. I made a comment about it here.

I think Skystrike was only added to her so that she looks cool when she enters the fight again.

Lex Lazurite3 votes

Quinn's mobility should be emphasized in her skill casting. The ability to remain mobile in combat, and not with dash skills (like vayne, lucian, graves, trist, corki... ect ect). Fixing E, and making Valor more woven into Quinn's play style.

I can see Skystrike being removed and that power being moved to Q, being a short CD Ground targeted AoE that commands Valor to swoop down and attack the area without interrupting her movement. Also, giving Valor an ON-HIT basic attack buff of sorts, be it armor pen or % damage to targets.

Leonerdo2 votes

I'm also a Quinn main (usually in bot lane), and I agree with most of these points but not all of them. I'll just respond to them in order:

  • Bugs: Quinn's blind (if it isn't removed) need to be WAY more consistent than it is now. The fact that it just doesn't work on some empowered autos (most notably Vayne's Q) but does work on some others... it baffles me. Her E is little less wonky, in that it messes up a lot less often. If you can easily fix those rare glitches, good; if not, don't sweat it.
  • Core abilities: Her passive is core to the theme of Quinn and Valor and to her "windows of opportunity."
  • Her Vault is core to her flexible playstyle, and is just a good ability. There's a good decision point in it; Maybe you use it to chase, maybe to kite, maybe just for damage. Either way, it's a cool, unique ability, with a small window of counterplay, and it's a lot of fun.
  • Obviously, her transform Ult is very important. When she's done scouting and knows the coast is clear, she uses her Ult to go in for the kill. It's crucial to her identity that she can punish out of position enemies with her ult, whether that be with a quick burst to finish someone off, or with the sustained dueling power to keep that pesky Caitlyn from farming bot alone.
  • I would actually disagree with the OP and say that her W active is also important to her identity. She's a scout after all, she should have some vision. I like that I can quickly check if that pesky Caitlyn has a support hiding just out of view, before I fully commit. Or I can use it to keep vision as my target enters a bush. Or I can just make sure the entire enemy team isn't waiting to kill me in our jungle when I rotate. I suppose the ability is a little basic, and could be more interesting (especially for the opponent), but I wouldn't change it much.
  • And since I mentioned every other ability, I guess I'll say, yeah, her Q is probably the least interesting of her abilities. I think it's important for her dueling power, and without it, she would need something else to let her duel enemy ADCs (that pesky Caitlyn must die!). She also needs it to at least keep up with top-lane duelists like Irelia. So I dunno. It's not a very cool ability, but it defines a lot of her power and who she can or can't fight.
  • Overall Identity: I play her as an ADC, but I know a lot of people play her top. I think both of those roles should be supported, or people will be upset (see Morde rework). Unlike a lot of marksmen, Quinn is not a good teamfighter (although not useless in a teamfight). Rather, she is a good duelist or split-pusher. Her strategic strength is in her ability to skirmish/duel, make or follow up on picks, and move around the map quickly and safely (using her ult and W). In otherwords, I agree that she is and should stay a duelist/roamer. For me, one of the most important things about Quinn, is that I have the option to go really aggressive, but I can also play safe and kite like a normal ADC.
  • Skystrike (Ult): This a tricky subject. On the one hand I like being able to occasionally play as an assassin (especially if I have to teamfight, and there's no way I can match the sustained dps of the enemy Jinx; I'd rather sacrifice my life to dive and kill her.) On the other hand, assassin was not one of the roles I mentioned as core to her identity. What kind of scout dives head first into the enemy, acting like a kamikaze pilot? If Skystrike were removed, I would be sad that I can't one-shot a Vel'koz, but I would understand if it had to go to make room for the rest of her identity. And yeah, the cooldown is REALLY long. I'd rather Quinn's ult be short cooldown with a little less combat power, allowing her to move around more and always be able to make a play if the opportunity is there.
  • Heightened Senses (W): I don't really notice the passive much, but I know the speed helps a lot. It's invisible power. Maybe move the attack to only be on her ult (for dueling), and buff the MS a tiny bit? And like I said before, I think the active is really nice, for knowing when I can fight and when I need to flee, i.e. scouting.

This is all just my personal belief, but I hope it helps you identify what is really important to Quinn and what can be improved. Quinn Godspeed

Saixos3 votes

Just real quick to clarify some things, her W in some form is part of her identity, but not exactly as it is. If we changed E to be a skillshot for example then we'd have a big problem. But her W could undertake multiple forms and variations such as working more similar to Kalista Sentinals or flying to a targeted ward and back. Wouldn't really matter too much.

Also, Quinn isn't a scout, she's a ranger. "from swift reconnaissance to lethal strikes" Assassinating a selected target, especially a solo target, doesn't break her identity c:

GastonBarnacles2 votes

THERE IS A PAGE FOR MAINS?? For every champ? That's cool.

q O y O p1 votes

Quinn is fine...

She can compete with any other marksman. Her blind gives her the ability to take on a lot of AA based champs 1v1 or even in teamfights and come out on top. Her E is great for engage/disengage. Her ultimate is awesome, the boosted attackspeed from W works out really well.

The reason she isn't played more is that there are stronger damage dealing champions out there. If you buff anything just touch her base stats. There's not much else you can do to her without making her OP.

I usually pick her if there are 2 or more auto attack based champs on the enemy team. (Yi...and ADC for example)

Saixos13 votes

Of course she's decent, her numbers are fine. She has issues outputting her damage reliably and could use some QoL and bugfixes, but she's fine. Heck we main her, we'd know. Thing is just that Riot's making changes, so may as well try and make sure they're good changes, right?

MacbethAndCheese1 votes

Quinn is buggy, but im scared if she ever becomes viable because of no bugs she will need to be nerfed because she has an incredibly annoying kit for any melee ever

Saixos8 votes

Stares long and hard at Vayne I think you may be overestimating the danger somewhat. Once the changes are stabilized should be fine.

Recon1 votes

Skystrike as it is needs some changes. Opinions on this vary from preferring minor to major changes, to outright removal and compensation. A large number of us would like an escape post-ult, and everyone would like a lower cd.

How about Vault reseting if you get a kill with skystrike? R>E>Q>R then E away back out to safety.

Gives her more reward for playing recklessly, makes knowing how much damage you can do more important, gives her the much needed escape, allows her to set up the next part of the engagement with an immediate harrier proc, etc.

In a side note, just wanted to point to the previous thread again, just in case you didn't return to it (lots of great replies there that were a bit late :^) ): http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Zrx8AhmI-riotrepertoir-quinn-stuff-long-post?comment=00010001

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