People are complaining about Vayne everywhere. Constantly. WHY. She has a 54% winrate. Thats not fucking broken. Thats slightly above average. One site says 53%. That isnt that fucking bad. Wtf. Her winrate isnt that bad. Why is everyone complaining. Why does she have a 50% banrate. Wtf.
Oxyrotten4 votesAre you serious? 54% is huge. Remember this is a population sample size across hundreds of thousands of games. So for anyone to rise above 50% mean is a pretty good indicator that something is up. The next ranked adc is at a 51% winrate to put it in perspective.
Terozu1 votesSomeone always has to be above 50% 54% Specifically 54.05% is not as bad as people make it out to be. Enemy team having them increases their odds of winning by 3-6%. Thats it. Thats not freaking broken. Ill admit shes strong and does need tuning. But the extent that people are complaining is ridiculous.
Oxyrotten2 votesNot as bad as people make it out to be?
6% increase to odds is a very big change. And that is an overall odd's increase on a single player's choice. And that is before even leaving champ select...
There are more factors that need to be looked at of course such as win percent over time, but 54% is a very large lead, and 6% overall odd's increase is a big factor. And then consider that is an increase made just by champion choice...
Broken or not that is an unfair advantage.
Terozu1 votesPicking Aurelion Sol increases your odds by like 10%. People dont cry about him, there are so many things actively effecting the odds that in the end that 6% at most accounts for a +1-2%. Picking vayne is just one variable. 6% is also the highest modifier she gets. Thats against the weakest adc, against most adcs its closer to 3% or even only 1%. The difference between her and another adc is almost fucking meaningless.
Oxyrotten2 votesYou need to learn how to look at statistics. Sure you can use them to argue anything but that doesn't mean that they mean anything.
Sol's winrate is so high because his playrate is so low. So the sample size shrinks giving us an in-accurate estimation of his game impact. Outliers weigh more and so on. That's also limiting the other statistical factors we can gather, variables such as matchups, player experience, and so on.
Your also talking about comparing data extrapolated from some 4 thousand games against data from closer to 300 thousand games. You can't be seriously trying to use that as justification in your statistical analysis.
Terozu1 votesI know how to look at statistics. I also know what play rates are.
I know Aurelion has a very low pick rate.
I know how sample sizes work.
In case you couldnt tell im using hyperbole to put emphasis on my point. Pointing to various things that have just as much an actual effect as her win rate on the games outcome that ate actualy equally unimportant.
Vayne's high win rate isnt that high and over all isnt some giant effect on the games turnout. Her winrate is just an outlier as well she's not as stromg as people are making her out to be. Effects like champ combos and comps have far more effect than a simple 54% win rate. She is not this broken "can 1v5 at 3 items completely unstoppable literally trolling if you don't ban her" god teir champ everyone is treating her as.
Theres no reason to complain about Vayne this much.
Oxyrotten2 votesNevermind your idea that her winrate is an outlier being a poor analysis, let's just run with that idea.
If it is just an outlier not indicative of the situation, then wouldn't that make it the extreme case that people should be complaining about? I mean if it does defy the standard and norms then isn't that indication that there is something that needs to be fixed to bring it back in line with normalization?
And besides that, a serious problem with the game (a tangent point I'm just bringing up, no need to argue) is that team comps, champ combo's etc are no longer factoring into these equations, or at least not with the same weight they should. The current state of the game is so unhealthy that a single champ hypercarrying has such a large impact on the game, I mean that's kind of the definition of hypercarry which vayne is. And it is so much easier for a champ's namely adc's/assassins to achieve a hypercarry status. Vayne just happens to benefit from this, that's not necessarily an issue with her champ design or balance, but an issue with the game balance.
redniwediS3 votesWin rates are only part of the story. She's just plain not fun to play against right now, to the point where she has a higher ban rate than Yasuo and other champs people think of as pure cancer.
If it was just the boards complaining it would just be a regular day, but that ban rate is pretty darn impressive.
Terozu1 votesBan rate says jack shit in this short a timeframe. Lee sin went from a 20% banrate to a 46% banrate over night when people heard they were buffing his shield. It ended up being an early game buff and it at max level was actually nerfed. The ban rate spike a week before the change even went through and it stayed that way for 2 months.
redniwediS2 votesIt might not mean anything when it comes to champion strength, but it means a whole lot when it comes to public perception. Right now people don't want to face Vayne.
FOR JUSTICE2 votesbecause adc circlejerk.
but to be fair, anything above 53% is justified for a nerf in some way. but your data is just a tad bit biased, considering people don't willingly choose sona for aram, and a much smaller player pool to derive the data from.
Terozu1 votesHonestly i dont see anything as "broken" unless it has at least 55% winrate. The reaction that's going on right now in comparison to her winrate is just flat out excessive.
SymbolicFear2 votesLet me tell you how to figure it out correctly. You looked at winrate BUT the real indicator is the play rate. Once she became much more powerful, everyone rushed to play her every game. Therefore that rate is high, and whenever that happens, if the champion is truly op, the winrate will rise anyways, if not, it will fall. Less experienced players get their hands on the champ and lose games. But if those same people win rather than lose and cause the winrate to rise, its clear evidence there is something up how powerful a champion is.
This system of measurement is how you can easily measure any champions power level in any meta. Those numbers do not lie. Simply look at play and winrate of the champ 6 months before and compare it to how it is at the current time stamp.
Higher playrate should lead to lower winrates.
As with LeeSin and Zed as well as Katarina etc.
Terozu1 votesI know all of this. But shes only at 54-fucking-%. That's not as broken as people are acting like it is. And the currrnt outcry against her is causing people to give up when the enemy has her which is artificially raising her winrate.
SymbolicFear1 votesIf it was people just giving up it would have to a LOT of people doing that which is highly doubtful.
Terozu1 votesI never said only. But i gaurentee that the stigma surrounding her accounts for at least a 1% in her win rate due to morale loss.
ZephyrDrake1 voteswhy the hell would anyone care about the winrate of someone in ARAM? a mode where people essentially toss a coin and either get stuck with whatever it was chosen for them or leave and try again until they are satisfied
Terozu1 votesDont like the comparison fine i removed, my point is valid without it. 54% winrate does nit justify the current witch hunt on Vayne, you still have a high chance of winning.
ZephyrDrake1 votesDont like the comparison fine i removed, my point is valid without it. 54% winrate does nit justify the current witch hunt on Vayne, you still have a high chance of winning.
you still have a chance of winning against a champion that has a 99% winrate so... does that mean that a champion with that winrate does not deserve to be nerfed? or be "witch hunted"? Vayne is a late game champion that is going online way too early in the game and is taking advantage of certain runes and keystones that make her really oppressive. Also people on boards would instantly cry whenever there is an ADC that is doing remotely well since most people on boards would rather see ADCs become troll picks rather than balanced. Most people on boards instantly want to witch hunt the entire class even when it's 2-3 champions that are really out of line just because of their bias against ADCs
Terozu1 votes99% and 54% are not the same thing. 1% is ridiculous and justifies the bans getting that high. A 46% does not.
ZephyrDrake1 votes99% and 54% are not the same thing. 1% is ridiculous and justifies the bans getting that high. A 46% does not.
i still have a chance to win. It's still the same thing. You can believe what you want but if a late game champion has a 54% winrate in a meta where you rarely ever get to the late game stages... imagine when the game actually slows down ever so slightly. Where do we draw a line? 60%? 70%? 80%? sorry but she has a too high of a winrate, i don't care if it's only 54%
Terozu1 votesA 1% chance to win and a 46% chance to win are nowhere near the same thing. You are 4600% more likely to win at 46%. Thats not the same thing at all. Stop saying you dont get to freaking late game. People get to late game all the time. Its just coming quicker. If you have to draw a line 60% is good. 54% is not as major as people think and are acting like it is.
ZephyrDrake1 votesA 1% chance to win and a 46% chance to win are nowhere near the same thing. You are 4600% more likely to win at 46%. Thats not the same thing at all. Stop saying you dont get to freaking late game. People get to late game all the time. Its just coming quicker. If you have to draw a line 60% is good. 54% is not as major as people think and are acting like it is.
same thing, don't care what you say. 99% is the same. I still have a chance of winning. I don't care if it's a 54% or a 99% of losing. I still have a chance of winning. I don't care if you want champions to reach 59% winrate before they actually become problems. I don't care about your terrible sense of balance
Hellmaximus11 votesDont like the comparison fine i removed, my point is valid without it. 54% winrate does nit justify the current witch hunt on Vayne, you still have a high chance of winning.
The problem with vayne is she turns into a late game god at 30+minutes in but now she can get their quicker by abusing relic/targon, cull, FoF, Ravenous hunter, overhealed which when combined with janna or taric become unkillable in the laning phase and they can actually kill you instead if your lane didn't grab the right runes with the right support.
This safe laning phase along with the gold generation you get makes it easier for vayne to shift into a late game monster by 15-20 minutes, which is a huge deal for an adc, mix that with the safety of a taric/janna for peel and engage you get a vary unfair matchup.
Terozu1 votesVayne statitcally loses lane like 57-59% if the time. Her laning phase seems to be utter trash.
So this makes 0 sense.
Hellmaximus11 votesVayne statitcally loses lane like 57-59% if the time. Her laning phase seems to be utter trash.
So this makes 0 sense.
Um no, unless the vayne isn't running the relic/rune combo and/or doesn't have a decent support than she loses lane.
Anyone in gold+ can tell you however that every adc runs relic/rune combo and if they don't it wouldn't matter what champion it is, they'll lose lane to an enemy who is using the relix/rune combo.
Terozu1 votesBut statistics show that Vayne loses lane a majority of games. Most adcs out perform her in lane, she just wins more games.
SEKAI1 votesShe has a 54% winrate. Thats not fucking broken.
Except it is.
And it is also exceptionally broken because Vayne has a playerbase of almost 30%.
If I tell you almost 1/3 of the entire community is playing this 1 champ and somehow the champ still has 54% win rate, would you believe that they're broken?
Of course you would, because that's what anybody with more than 2 brain cells could see, given the case is so blatantly clear; hell, that's even why she has such an extreme play rate to begin with because believe it or not there's a thing called the freelo riders, who inflate a champ suddenly in swarms precisely because they're atm broken (this is also the same thing as how Yi, Udyr, Xin, Noc etc had an extreme popularity spike during the Feral Flare meta).
Also, Vayne's pick rate is consistently high across all elos, and win rate actually becomes higher the higher elo she goes despite her win rate in low elo is already monstrous.
Without a shadow of a doubt, she's busted.
Infernape1 votesThe problem is that Vayne spikes too early into the game. Through a combination, of Fleet Footwork, Overheal, and Targon's, she quite literally bypasses her supposed "weak early game". No matter how much you bully her in lane, she will eventually heal up to near full HP pretty easily. Vayne hits a massive powerspike by the time she buys two items.
According to League of Graphs (which has analysed over 9 million games since 8.1 hit live), her pick rate is high, her ban rate is high and her win rate is high. Those three factors indicate that she is out of line. She's getting nerfed because she is objectively too strong. It's the same reason why Evelynn and Malzahar are getting nerfed.
Win rate isn't everything though. Take Aurelion Sol for instance. He's mid's highest win rate champion. However, he isn't getting nerfed because he has a 1-2% pick rate, meaning it's only his mains that play him. If his pick rate spiked and his win rate stayed the same or increased, the chances are he'd be looked at himself.
Vayne is a high skill cap champion. Her win rate is supposed to be naturally low (especially if her pick rate is high), much like champions like Lee Sin and Azir (who both have 47-48% win rates at the moment).
Śhunpo1 votesAh, so you enjoy playing into a lane which you can't do anything about vs one of THE best midgame champions (right now) in the game. Great meme.
She's effectively getting her items for free right now since she can't exactly die in laning phase given the absurdity of Overheal+Relic shield.
Not to mention that she 2-3 shots people post Shiv.
Terozu1 votesVaynes laning phase sucks. Shes at a 43% winrate in laning. She just wins more games.