AP carries are still pretty bad. These itemization changes didn't really fix anything.

Yenn·Feb 27, 2018·16 votes·984 views

They're still completely overshadowed by AD carries and assassins.

But hey, now I have more build options to support the ADC with, so I guess that's good?

60 Comments

lolipopevelynnFeb 27, 20186 votes

{quoted}

They're still completely overshadowed by AD carries and assassins.

But hey, now I have more build options to support the ADC with, so I guess that's good?

AP carries overshadow assassins. assassins are in the gutter right now.

BlåbæretFeb 27, 20182 votes

Assassin mains would have you believe that their champs are trash, but that really isn't the case.

dunder killFeb 27, 201810 votes

Mage mains have claimed mages have been trash for a long time when that just isn't the case either lol

BlåbæretFeb 27, 20185 votes

Mages are literal trash. The AP update speaks for itself.

Assassins and mages suffer from the same problem tho, ADCs are right-clicking both of them to death before they can even react. Neither mages nor assassins can reliably kill an ADC in this meta. However, the major difference is that mage itemization is garbage, assassin itemization is OP. I ain't saying assassins are strong, but their current state is exaggerated way beyond what's reasonable. Sure, they can't kill ADCs, but they can kill any other squishy. Mages can't kill shit. You buy half an MR item and the mage is done for.

Riot refuses to nerf ADCs, so this problem will continue to exist.

dunder killFeb 27, 20186 votes

This is so bullshit.

http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

You can run around making bullshit claims that are 100% false beyond any shadow of a doubt like "mages are trash" when in reality they're just like any other class.

Some of them are really good, some are really bad, and there's a whole lot of in between. Just like literally any other class in the game. Thank god Riot doesn't take these boards seriously. Some of the circlejerks on here are so insanely dumb that it blows my mind

BlåbæretFeb 27, 20181 votes

Quoting statistics doesn't change facts. You can argue using win rates that ADCs are balanced. Everyone knows they aren't.

Kapish.

dunder killFeb 27, 20184 votes

"using actual data doesn't make it fact, my opinion does"

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse, I get told that using actual facts means it's actually not a fact. Holy shit dude. I'm sorry that you feel your opinion overrides actual hard data, but I can assure you that it doesn't. I can also assure you that the opinion "mages are trash" is complete and utter bullshit.

BlåbæretFeb 27, 20182 votes

Statistics don't mean jack without context. Elementary school knowledge.

Kapish.

NemeBroFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Quoting statistics doesn't change facts. You can argue using win rates that ADCs are balanced. Everyone knows they aren't.

Kapish.

Facts based on what? Your feelings?

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20183 votes

{quoted}

AP carries overshadow assassins. assassins are in the gutter right now.

Zed and Kha are really good in solo queue right now.

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20185 votes

You even see it in pro play where the only mid laner who isn't a good roamer that's picked is azir.

Kind of depressing. I guess no one gets to matter past mid game as a damage carry sans adc.

2Charmnot2CharmFeb 27, 20183 votes

Also love how they keep nerfing assassins while at the same time buffing their targets/counter every patch. (Marksmen/Support)

dunder killFeb 27, 20188 votes

You even see it in pro play where the only mid laner who isn't a good roamer that's picked is azir.

I don't see the issue with this really. Champs that can create more map pressure and roam are always going to have an advantage when teams are that coordinated. Balancing things around pro play is an awful idea

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't see the issue with this really. Champs that can create more map pressure and roam are always going to have an advantage when teams are that coordinated. Balancing things around pro play is an awful idea

The only logic behind the Zoe nerf would've been pro play and they still went through with making her useless, same reason why ryze has remained how he was.

You also don't see as much of a pressure to roam or help anyone else from bot, because no other lane is worth investing in as much as bot. They are allowed to sit down and always be the most useful members.

dunder killFeb 27, 20187 votes

They gutted Zoe because they made a monstrosity that people from all elos despised. Rise was gutted because pro play but that doesn't make it right

You also don't see as much of a pressure to roam or help anyone else from bot,

What? Support is constantly roaming and they pack up and move to other lanes to help them seige down turrets once they get theirs

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They gutted Zoe because they made a monstrosity that people from all elos despised. Rise was gutted because pro play but that doesn't make it right

What? Support is constantly roaming and they pack up and move to other lanes to help them seige down turrets once they get theirs

No one cares if people "despise" her, if people despise something that bad you rework it not completely guy it to be useless. My fact still remains, Zoe was never unbalanced in solo queue.

I will post this again: https://imgur.com/a/drlCH

Support sometime roam sure, but you never see an adc picked for their roaming and conversely you don't see a team investment made into a scaling mid laner who can't roam like an adc can. Because no one sans someone like azir can team fight or scale like ADCs.

dunder killFeb 27, 20183 votes

Mid has always favored champs that are good at roaming. That's literally why they're there lol. A reason a lot of mages ended up there is because is a short lane which helps the immobile ones

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20182 votes

I'm saying that mid shouldn't just be a roam bot to get others ahead and then be forced to pass the carry torch over once the adc gets two items.

Every lane should have opportunities to carry hard it shouldn't always be the case that one lane is the strongest for investing into carry everytime imo.

BlåbæretFeb 27, 20185 votes

Dude, Zoe is a cancer design. She deserved to be gutted for the same reason Kalista initially was as well. No one cares whether she was OP or not; she's toxic and unwanted.

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20182 votes

This argument literally makes no sense. By what metric do you judge if someone is cancer? I will never understand posts like this that just ignore the facts and stats we can all easily read.

BlåbæretFeb 27, 20183 votes

Don't really care, man. She was gutted for the above reasons. Whether you agree with that or not is not my problem.

KrytoricFeb 27, 20181 votes

You only care about win rate, thats not the issue.

Her passive is just a free sheen. Enough said.

Her Q was LITERALLY one shotting people from out of vision, it has a very low CD, very low mana costs, and insane ratios. With half an item, she was doing 50%+ of someone's HP.

Her W was giving her free summoners / item actives, theres no counterplay to her getting a free TP, which is a free back, or ignite level 2 so she gets a free trade, or when you flash away, she gets your flash to chase you. She also gets 70% MS for 4 seconds and 3 missiles that refresh her passive.

Her E gives so much extra damage and it was pretty much a death sentence, it's range is extended from being shot through walls, so typically it was used out of vision, then you got hit for double damage. Again, this was also a low mana cost, pretty short CD and a lot of free damage.

Her ult was giving her an unnecessary amount of mobility and extra damage, it had next to no CD, it could proc her sheen passive, and make her Q do a stupid amount of damage AND if you wanted to point blank the E.

Her kit is just stupidly overloaded, i get you love Zoe, you defend her on every post, but you need to just accept the fact you're wrong. She deserved to get gutted until they can find a way to make her balanced.

vgamedudeFeb 27, 20182 votes

You still don't get it. If anything was as good or overloaded as you said it would TRANSLATE into being good statistically, and that's the issue, NOTHING shows that. The statistics are are a representation of the performance of the champion in game over many many many games, far more and far more relevant than what you or one individual experiences.

I can't believe I have to explain it, it's just simple numbers that she isn't broken. Not winrate, not kda, not damage done, nothing, and that's all plat + so the low elo excuse isn't valid.

KrytoricFeb 27, 20181 votes

No, you dont get it.

Regardless of how much you love that champ, you cant say she was okay.

Playing against one was the most unfun thing in this game, she was a no risk high reward champ. having a 4 second CD on a long ranged delete button isnt balanced. Her ratios needed to be destroyed and her w needed to get nerfed hard.

EDIT: how can you say she wasnt overloaded?

vgamedudeFeb 28, 20182 votes

You're literally just going to continually ignore the actual stats and facts on her aren't you? I'm not sure why I'm even responding at this point when you've posted nothing in the way of facts and just continually ignore the repeated posts that show how average she was statistically.

KrytoricFeb 28, 20182 votes

you're ignoring the fact she was one shotting people, so lets call it even bud.

vgamedudeFeb 28, 20181 votes

Yeah "one shotting". INB4 the ezreal whos underfed and 2 levels below her with no defense link.

In reality what happens is you land an e, throwback a q, portal forward with R, hit your Q and then land an empowered auto. Some one shot that is right?

Not to mention if she was somehow one shotting people constantly dont you think maybe her winrate would be better than completely average? Continue to ignore the data....

KrytoricFeb 28, 20182 votes

nah, i have a clip of her one shotting with Q from out of vision and it instantly killed my ADC that at the time was normal KD and ahead on CS. You're ignoring that she was literally one shotting.

Winrate doesnt = broken champ, you're ignoring the fact that its not the ONLY factor.

Also, how is she not overloaded? how is 70% MS, 3 missiles, free summoners and free item actives on one ability not overloaded? (responding to something you said before)

Give a reasonable argument other than "duhhhhhhh winrate" then maybe people will take you seriously.

Malix FarwinFeb 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You only care about win rate, thats not the issue.

Her passive is just a free sheen. Enough said.

Her Q was LITERALLY one shotting people from out of vision, it has a very low CD, very low mana costs, and insane ratios. With half an item, she was doing 50%+ of someone's HP.

Her W was giving her free summoners / item actives, theres no counterplay to her getting a free TP, which is a free back, or ignite level 2 so she gets a free trade, or when you flash away, she gets your flash to chase you. She also gets 70% MS for 4 seconds and 3 missiles that refresh her passive.

Her E gives so much extra damage and it was pretty much a death sentence, it's range is extended from being shot through walls, so typically it was used out of vision, then you got hit for double damage. Again, this was also a low mana cost, pretty short CD and a lot of free damage.

Her ult was giving her an unnecessary amount of mobility and extra damage, it had next to no CD, it could proc her sheen passive, and make her Q do a stupid amount of damage AND if you wanted to point blank the E.

Her kit is just stupidly overloaded, i get you love Zoe, you defend her on every post, but you need to just accept the fact you're wrong. She deserved to get gutted until they can find a way to make her balanced.

Rofl her Q hasn't one shotted anyone since nerf

You are just listing her kit, i can do the same with your most played champ, thresh.

His passive literally give permanent stats

His Q is literally a stun and gap close with low mana cost, and insane ratios, with half an item it has a short cd and spammable

His W throws out a latern that sheilds and gets his teammates out of any situaiton, it has no counterplay!!111!1!

His E does a ton of dmg because of souls and it slows, landing Q pretty much makes this a Death Sentence.

His R is a insane aoe slow that does damage so broken!111!!!

How you sound.

KrytoricFeb 28, 20181 votes

here's the IQ of people defending Zoe.

notice how i said "was" ?

xelakerFeb 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

They're still completely overshadowed by AD carries and assassins.

But hey, now I have more build options to support the ADC with, so I guess that's good?

assassins really just have duskblade going for them

Who Fed RuFeb 27, 20183 votes

Dude what.

I recently picked Xerath back up because he is just damn strong atm.

Finally stop acting like mages are weak.

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20182 votes

We need better early game itemization. So tired of having to rush mana, AP, CDR and being vulnerable as fuck to pokes and dives,

dunder killFeb 27, 20183 votes

Having to rush a bunch of stats that are all on the same items? Huh

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Having to rush a bunch of stats that are all on the same items? Huh

We're forced to spend our early gold on glass cannon is my point

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20185 votes

So are...everybody who aren’t tanks.

That is how a majority of the game works.

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So are...everybody who aren’t tanks.

That is how a majority of the game works.

item 3155 item 1053 item 3044

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20183 votes

item 3191 item 3010 item 2419 item 3136

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The problem is the only sustain is catalyst and it sucks at it. The lack of sustain makes the other stats very weak compared to how AD champs can have lifesteal with it. Also, the armor option sucks because you have to last hit it up, you have shitty sustain anyway so it doesn't really do anything, and you don't get a shield with it like Hexdrinker does.

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20184 votes

And the only sustain in your list of items is vamp scepter, which fucking nobody rushes.

Guess why champions with the safest inherent attribute in the game tend to have items that don’t give them as much defense or sustain as classes of champions that are almost all melee?

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And the only sustain in your list of items is vamp scepter, which fucking nobody rushes.

Guess why champions with the safest inherent attribute in the game tend to have items that don’t give them as much defense or sustain as classes of champions that are almost all melee?

"Nobody rushes it" Ok dude whatever. The point is you can and it syergizes really well with defense items. Anyone who uses BotRK can easily rush it.

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20183 votes

Indeed. Which is why Bork tends to get nerfed, and only rushed by on-hit synergistic ADCs...

Oh wait, they don’t build defensive items anyways.

KhristophorosFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Indeed. Which is why Bork tends to get nerfed, and only rushed by on-hit synergistic ADCs...

Oh wait, they don’t build defensive items anyways.

You can easily build hexdrinker on any AD champ if needed, but I wasn't talking about ADCs anyway.

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20183 votes

And you can easily build haunting guise or catalyst or arm guard on any given mage.

Vanic998Feb 27, 20182 votes

I love the new items.