You nerf a champion like Kassadin, who is barely played in solo queue and hovers at around 49% win rate. ult range nerfed from 700 to 450
You nerf a champion like Vi, who is an extremely oppressive permaban champion, and has a click-to-kill solo-queue-perfect ult 5ms and 50 base damage nerf
Why such a large difference in nerf scale? Even though one obviously deserves more nerfs than the other??
Yandere Carry15 votesvi was underplayed a short while ago and now that she's picked up in popularity everyone's losing their fucking minds
MCBiggah9910 votes[{quoted}](name=Tang Bohu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oHmhGJnc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-28T00:00:40.035+0000)
vi was underplayed a short while ago and now that she's picked up in popularity everyone's losing their fucking minds
And before that short period where she was underplayed, she was strong too. She's always been strong, especially in solo queue, but now that she's top tier people are realising what kind of a monster she is.
Yandere Carry4 votesShe was pretty good. Doesn't deserve a nerf just because kids suck.
MCBiggah996 votes[{quoted}](name=Tang Bohu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oHmhGJnc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-28T00:13:27.876+0000)
She was pretty good. Doesn't deserve a nerf just because kids suck.
Well, I'd say not being able to play against a point-and-click lockdown has nothing to do with sucking, really. Thank god we'll have Bard to deal with that now :)
Yandere Carry1 votesthere are multiple ways to play around it.
ks9167 votesWell, I'd say not being able to play against a point-and-click lockdown has nothing to do with sucking, really. Thank god we'll have Bard to deal with that now :)
The point and click ult is kinda of needed now with champions like kalista. Also buying zhoyna's is pretty darn effective if your an apc. For adc's your team should be peeling her after she ults, or you shouldn't be in range of her to ultimate u in the first place as an adc.
Cartheginian152 votesWell that was also said about veigar and see where he is.Its double standards to say that Veig E is a point and click stun with no counterplay but Liss and to a leser extend vi have.Imo those champions are perfectly fine but hitting veigar(and gutting kass) so hard and talking bs about game health and counterplay is not
qetzel1 votesI don't think it was the stun itself as much as it was the play pattern - stun and burst from range with no chance of responding (against a good Veigar at least). Vi, and to a lesser extent, Lissandra both have to jump in to the middle of a fight for their stuns to work. I would still call Lissandra's iffy as it can be followed up by immediate burst, but it isn't the same.
BerserkInferno1 votesThey are both still very safe. Liss get's a zhonya's and an AOE Bind, and Vi gets to knock everyone back while ignoring all cc. Veigar got kassadin'd in comparison. His stun was his only defensive option he doesn't have low cd's on his q like lissandra does, and he certainly has damage like Vi, but lacks any tankyness. He lacks escapes of any kind and he really can't stick.
qetzel1 votesWhile that is true, there is still opportunity to respond to Vi and Lissandra. There wasn't to Veigar.
BerserkInferno1 votesWell there was still an opportunity to respond to veigar, provided that you had the right items or summoners spells. For instance if you take cleanse or build QSS with an hourglass, you can easily negate his entire kit.
A Miss Fortune1 votesYeah, if Vi didn't have just a point-and-click playstyle I think she would be fairly balanced, maybe some damage reduction is all.
And yeah, Bard is such a bad idea. He's only a troll champion. I mean he could actually be used as a strong pick and could win games. Maybe be played as a utility mage like Orianna or Janna in mid lane? Though the way I imagine it is.
ults into a teamfight
[Bard Icon] Zhonya's for everyone
IcyPepper1 votesDID 
SOMEONE 
SAY 
POINT 
AND 
CLICK?
But seriously, she has one point-and-click in her ult, and she's hardly the only one who has that. The base damage is reasonable (compared to Lee Sin's), the range is reasonable (plenty of skillshot ults are global
, and let's not even get into the champions who don't even have to aim their ult 
).
But do I think Vi needs a nerf? Hell yes. I play her, I love her kit and fighting style, but the jungle needs diversity and I'm willing to QQ and put up with heavier nerfs so that can happen. Do I think she's balanced? Yes, but the jungle isn't. The jungle caters way too much to AD bruisers (Fiddlesticks excels too, though).
And Bard is the greatest thing to come to the League of Acrobatics.
thinking man1 votes[{quoted}](name=Tang Bohu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oHmhGJnc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-28T00:00:40.035+0000)
vi was underplayed a short while ago and now that she's picked up in popularity everyone's losing their fucking minds
Her pickrate's always been in the 20s and her winrate's been in the 50-54ish range for a long time.
Cartheginian155 votesNo champion deserves what they did to 
,450 range is less than an adc and you can still throw a tornado just before he comes out of his ult,good luck dealing damage with only Q n' E.Wether or not vi is op doesnt mean she should get nerfed like kass...
B1naryB0t4 votesI'm sorry, but Riot finally buffs tank junglers and nerfs the top-tier ones and now you whine about how harsh they were? Is there ANY way to satisfy this community?
ks9165 votesI'm sorry, but Riot finally buffs tank junglers and nerfs the top-tier ones and now you whine about how harsh they were? Is there ANY way to satisfy this community?
People are way too hard to satisfy, don't think they'll be happy until rito delete's all the champions and we just watch minions :P
1CalledMIA1 votesPeople are way too hard to satisfy, don't think they'll be happy until rito delete's all the champions and we just watch minions :P
I've watched that when trying to learn jungle. Red side won =P
Pvt Yong Tai1 votesI'm glad that they are finally buffing some things that desperately need buffs. But that doesn't change the fact that they gutted our champions 
Do you think I would be satisfied if Nature made my favorite fruit, let's say plums taste like shit overnight, and then announced that she is making watermelons 
(and co.) more delicious? Would that really make me forget about the plums? Hell no I want my plums back.
And I know we're talking about a different plum here but really, range is such a delicate skill stat, seeing a whopping 40% range decrease on a melee champ is a HUGE non-rework change for a single patch.
Keep in mind these plums went bad YESTERDAY. I don't care if they send me positive news today about fucking watermelons, I'm still mad that I can't enjoy my plums.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that watermelons are going to taste better. They've tasted terrible for a while now, but... shit, man. My plums.
LankPants3 votesYou can see a stark difference between the strengths of Vi and Kass in competitive play when you look at the 4 major regions as a whole.
Vi is mostly only played in NA, with occasional situational picks in China, she's almost completely unplayed in EU and Korea.
Kass on the other hand is considered a strong pick in NA, Pick/Ban in EU and a top mid lane in Korea and China.
While this says nothing about casual play Kass is far stronger competitively in every region except for NA.
Kingsgrave2 votesYou can see a stark difference between the strengths of Vi and Kass in competitive play when you look at the 4 major regions as a whole.
Vi is mostly only played in NA, with occasional situational picks in China, she's almost completely unplayed in EU and Korea.
Kass on the other hand is considered a strong pick in NA, Pick/Ban in EU and a top mid lane in Korea and China.
While this says nothing about casual play Kass is far stronger competitively in every region except for NA.
Different regions value different things
LankPants3 votesThat really doesn't change the fact that Kass is valued super highly by way more regions than Vi. I feel like calls to nerf Vi are less valid than calls to nerf Nunu, considering he's far more popular world-wide than Vi.
You can't just look at League's balance in terms of your own region and maybe I'm super good at looking at the global scale since I'm not from a major region, but if you want to look at the state of balance in the game and just take one region into account you'll break it for the other two metas (BTW NA has the most copied meta of any region, I don't consider it it's own meta, rather an extension of the Korean meta)
Arveanor2 votesYeah. Korea values winning. NA doesn't.
Cartheginian151 votesYeah lets urgot him because he is played in lcs.Meanwhile 
is unarguably a top tier jungler since s1 with only nerfs to remove him from the unbeatable god tier status (passive 50% as,Q 2.0 AD ratio+10% Hp missing,E 40% as debuff) and he still hasnt seen a balance state because "community backlash" n' #LC$BIGPLAY$ completely forgeting values RIOT set about healthy game and counterplay.
LankPants1 votesSorry I must have missed the part where I said Lee didn't need nerfs.
I've always held the opinion that League can never be balanced with Lee in his current state. I just also understand more than one champ can be changed in a patch.
As much noise as the forums made about the Kass nerfs he honestly needed it, he was the second most picked champ across all regions after J4. I think the nerfs he received were overkill, but he was far from balanced before his nerfs.
TeemoJenkins2 votesI'm actually surprising the are nerfing Vi and based on what the ratio of the nerf is, it's major.
Cartheginian151 votesWhat?She lost 0.1 ad ration and 50 dps from her Ult,what is so major about it?You are still going to pick her for the same reasons you picked her before the nerf ismore on her 1v1 with the enemy jungler,why would her ganks be bad because of it?
YOU BEEN WARNED2 votesLet me bring to your attention that the ADC class is overpowered right now, I'm pretty happy with the Vi nerfs as she is annoying to face as the majority of the roster, but her ult is highly needed.
Keevalroy2 votesVi's been strong enough to survive this terrible jungle, but she surged in popularity because she is used to prevent Kalista picks, or is picked against her. SOMEONE has to be able to lock that toxic abomination down, and now she's getting punished for it.
KaisadiIIa2 votes
Vi:
Q - Vault breaker
R - Assault and Battery
That's all she needs. Her ganks bring a ton of CC, she just don't need to deal that high damage, she literally melts champions like Lux in every gank. And for her R range... she already has a gap-closer (Q) with 725 range (that's more than Kassadin's old range), 725+800 = 1,525 true gap-closing range if she combines Q + R to gank, hell, that's half Lux's R range. Again, immobile mages just can't do nothing against these ganks.
Bears Dont Care2 votes
- Maximum physical damage reduced to 75/112.5/150/167.5/225 +1.2 AD from 100/150/200/250/300 +1.6 AD.
Um...no? You need to charge the ability up for over one second, you do NOT reduce the damage down to strength of a Jarvan Q when the ability needs to becharged and is her only gap closer without an ult.
R - Assault and Battery
- Range reduced from 800 to 350.
This is retarded...it does not serve her needs for multpl knock ups and allowing her to close in on a target. It also makes it a lot harder to pull her into your team to kill her if she ults. Let's stop making dumb decisions because we don't like something, and do it because there are actual issues. Of the top junglers, Vi is the weakest.
doublelift fg1 votesbecause Riot
Lajneen1 votesI could've prevented all this, but you scrubs wouldn't listen.
Raptamei1 votesThose nerfs aren't for the sake of balance, but for "COUNTERPLAY".
Caharin1 votesSo that Kassadin WILL get close to 3k mana, use it as damage on his ulti wich is on a 2 sec CD max level is comparable to a 80 sec ulti that targets one guy and then locks it in place for a while and deals a hefty amount of damage? Not sure if trolling, but Kassadin can potentially ult 40 times during that timeframe, and will be able to cross the map several times and get several pentas worth of damage.
The big problem is, you can't compare a mobility ultimate with a CC ultimate.
Let's compare Kassadin to some mobile champs' mobility abilities!
LB - 600 range, 10 sec CD, can dash back. Can copy with 24 sec CD ulti.
Zed - 550 range, 14 sec CD, can dash to it.
Ezreal - 475 range, 11 sec CD, removes 1 sec for each Q he lands.
Rek'Sai - 250 range, 18 sec CD, has an internal CD of 12 sec per tunnel use on top of that.
Lee Sin - (Q) 1100 range, 7 sec CD, skillshot, after that hits he can jump with 1300 range. (W) 700 range, 14 sec CD, can only be used on allied ward, minion or champion.
Yasuo - 475 range (completes the 475 range dash even if enemy is 1 unit away) 0.1 sec CD, but can't be cast twice on an enemy for 6 seconds. Can only be used on enemy champs/minions.
Kalista - Dash pretty similar to Grave's Quickdraw, so around 400 range. Once every auto. Extra range while used backwars. Gets lower with AS debuffs (FH, Randuins)
Lissandra - 1050 range, 11 sec CD, if CC'd she can't teleport.
Now how is Kassadin compared to these?
K vs. LB - He dashes 5 times.
K vs. Zed - He dashes 7 times.
K vs. Ezreal - He dashes 5 times.
K vs. Rek'Sai - He dashes 9 times.
K vs. Lee Sin - He dashes 3 times (Q) and 7 times (W)
K vs. Yasuo - Completely situational.
K vs. Kalista - 1v1 dies most likely because no hard CC (learn that champs without hard CC SHOULD NOT be able to 1v1 Kalista)
K vs. Lissandra - He dashes 5 times.
In most cases, he outranges the opponent by FAR. The only two who are a bit weird to analyze are Kassadin vs. Yas/Kalista since their mobility needs more than just point and click into the air.
So even if Kassadin got "gutted", he is still able to outblink the mobility creep champions. There is no counter-argument to these facts, honestly.
And don't compare Vi ulti and Kassadin ulti, it's like comparing Lee Sin's ulti with Singed's ulti, or something completely un-related.
KaisadiIIa3 votesSo that Kassadin WILL get close to 3k mana, use it as damage on his ulti wich is on a 2 sec CD
Yeah, you accidentally forget to mention that he scales off 2% maximum mana (or 6% if he's expending 960 for a blink), so 3k mana = 60 damage (or 180 at a cost of 960 mana). WOW SUCH DAMAGE KASSA DESTROYED ME WITH 60 DAMAGE HE INSTA-BURSTED SION. You also forget than some Kassadin's don't buy Archangel (I usually see just RoA at LCS, so he get's ~1.8k mana late game which means 36 damage, but still).
Let's compare Kassadin to some mobile champs' mobility abilities!
Again, you "accidentally" forget to mention Nidalee. btw you call "dash" to Kassadin's R when it's a "blink".
In most cases, he outranges the opponent by FAR.
You "accidentally" (three times in a row, wow) forgot, AGAIN, Kassadin's mana costs. I will literally copy your ridiculous comparisons but add some mana costs:
There is no counter-argument to these facts, honestly.
Yes, there are counter-arguments to these facts, but you blatantly accidentally ignored them. You are highly biased against Kassadin and you "accidentally" forgot to mention a lot of facts that give some context to Kassa's Riftlimp. Like the fact that he has a weaker burst than Nami (literally speaking, the only reason he out-burst Nami late game is because he has damage items while Nami has not, but a Nami with exactly the same build than Kassa would out-burst him).
K vs. Rek'Sai - He dashes 9 times. SHE*
tl;dr: another "KASSA FREE FLASH GG OP NOOBCHAMP" qq post. You have no idea what are you talking about.
Caharin1 votesI don't even know were to begin. Your counterarguments are completely ridiculus and the flaws in the logic behind your anwer is... Well, absurd. I'm just gonna leave with this because you're the type of guy who disowns hard facts.
KaisadiIIa2 votesAs I expected, you have no idea what are you talking about so you will say "your counterarguments are ridiculous" for no reason instead of actually counter-arguing. Pathetic.
BetaDude402 votesSo you admit defeat? If you can't say WHY his counter arguments are ridiculous, or prove your argument, then you've lost. You can't pull that in an argument, it doesn't work at all.
Not to mention, Shinobu is pretty much right on all of his facts anyway. All of the champions you listed have just as much mobility with little or no cost to them at much higher ranges. The champions themselves also do much more damage than Kass can dream of.
Yeah, go ahead. Play Kass. Tell me how ulting 40 times in a row to catch up to an enemy goes for you.
BerserkInferno1 votesShinobu has just torn you a new one mate. YOUR argument is completely ridiculous and the flaws in the logic behind YOUR argument are absurd. Just to top it off you can't even defend them.
Now go to the corner and suck on this hands pacifier
4nth0l0gy1 votesI think we're all just confused about the Kass and Veigar nerfs in 5.4.
Copelando1 votesNidalee still needs nerfs for her AP ratios.
They buff them instead
Tentacle Love1 votesWell, I don't necessarily agree with it, but Kassadin is one of those champions like Riven that's mediocre in the hands of a normal player and unbelievable in the hands of a pro.
They said before that when they balance a champion, they have to try and decide who they're balancing that champion for. If they balance Kassadin for the LCS, he gets destroyed. (like they just did) If they balance him for silver or gold players on up, he's unstoppable in the hands of the LCS players and his ban rate is 80%+ and his win rate is ridiculous.
There are probably better ways to fix it. But, that's not my job.
BetaDude401 votesI kinda think that if they really wanted to hit Kassadin's ult, they should have hit the cooldown time, not the range. Maybe make it upwards of 12 - 20 seconds (estimate, probably more or less) at all ranks. Hell, anything is better than the range nerf they gave him.
Of course, fixing him isn't my job either. I really hope Riot makes an AMA after every patch, because the community just has too many questions about this issue.
ZGM Dazzling1 votesYou nerf a champion like Kassadin, who is barely played in solo queue
lol............................. Sorry buddy but i ignored everything you said after that statement.
BetaDude401 voteshttp://www.lolking.net/champions/
Kassadin had a play rate of about 8% (which has dropped to 6% since the nerfs). Before nerfs, he barely saw more play than Malphite. Now he's between Vladimir and Sion.
Meanwhile, Graves, Thresh, and Jinx all have play rates of around 30%.