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How to gain back some respect after 5.4

MCBiggah99··140 votes·6,909 views

Warning before you read this: This is a complaint thread, which means it has complaints. Deal with it. If you want actual in-game ideas and creative proposed changes instead of complaints and PJSalt, I have this thread for ya: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/IHZiYyrM-some-ideas-on-how-to-fix-veig-morde-and-co

  • Revert every Veigar change and think this through more. You were supposed to give him a buff after he lost his DFG, not gut him more. Do you know the difference between changes and nerfs? Do you know the difference between buffs and nerfs? (Same reasoning as point 4, your contradicting behaviour is starting to make me feel betrayed. Promise me buffs, end up nerfing. Promise me Zed nerfs, then stay silent about him...)
  • Revert the Kassadin nerfs. I think this one's obvious, stop Olafing champions. No, the 15 mana reduction isn't shit compared to the 250 range nerf, even if it's exponential. That's just an attempt at convincing with pretty words. You've been getting good at that. (EDIT: I was really salty when writing this, but I just really love Kassadin. I've started maining him in preseason 5 with great success, I finally found a champion I could outperform just about everyone on. Then this happened and, well, you shattered it.)
  • When you give Azir buffs, make them matter. I can already imagine you guys giving him 5 more base damage on his Q and calling that a "buff." If you're able to nerf hard, you should be able to buff hard too. I actually used to play Azir a bit, it's really sad to see this stunning pinnacle of innovative champion design go to waste under the mountain of nerfs he's receiving. I want to feel strong while playing Azir again, a champion that used to be one of my favourites.
  • I should've included this in the Veigar section. You were supposed to compensate the champions who got their DFG removed, not change them slightly or even nerf them. We're not blind, everybody can see that you nerfed them. Give them back what they lost in some way or another. Yes, all of them, not just Ahri who you made mother-of-all-that-is-holy-tier in a single patch, and is still god-tier after her nerf patch. I'm looking at you, my buddy Morde! The main reason I hold a grudge against you (whoever is in the balance team) for this is because I feel lied to and betrayed. If you promise me something and you end up doing the exact opposite, I'll be sad.
  • Listen to the community. This isn't 5.4-related but a lot of people hate the boards and want their GD back. You can't shove broccoli up the throat of a kid who doesn't like broccoli, you're supposed to find other ingredients or maybe a broccoli recipe that the kid likes so you can give him his veggies and he can enjoy his food ^^. We don't like these fuckin' veggies Rito. (You better upvote me for this retarded comparison). The reason I want GD back is because I miss all the trolling, having fun, just messing around. Everything's so serious and dark on here, I just dislike it...

That's it for now, I'll be back if I have anything else.

EDIT: I got a new one!

  • Get your priorities straight. There are tons of champions who need attention (in a nerfing way) more than Kassadin. Think Nidalee, etc.

EDIT 2: Added reasoning for my points, you'll find em in between brackets in most cases.

126 Comments

Xelane36 votes

Hm...I wasn't necessarily going to upvote you at first...but that comparison IS pretty retarded...so...upvoted.

MCBiggah994 votes

{quoted}

Hm...I wasn't necessarily going to upvote you at first...but that comparison IS pretty retarded...so...upvoted.

Thank you kind sir!

Keevalroy24 votes

Is this a wishlist thread? Alright aside from what has been mentioned already,

  • Give back Revive
  • Change Ahri from an unhealthy mage back to a healthy assassin
  • Stop trying to justify your points by contradicting others
  • Give MEANINGFUL nerfs to Zed and Lee Sin
  • Remove Yasuo and Kalista from the roster (please...just do it)
  • Give back Quill Coat to help tank junglers like we've been telling you to
  • Stop saying you want to bring diversity by removing entire aspects of the game from existence and constricting roles to fit a binary playstyle.
Killer X 122 votes

Even back when Yasuo was strong i didn't have to many issues with him in lane...it was just that he could of left lane 0-7 and still quad kill your team. Kalista however...its just not fair lol

Keevalroy3 votes

Yas can do this because of (one of his) idiotic passives that gives him double crit chance. By the time he gets shiv, his score is no longer relative and it's as if he was never behind to begin with, and if he gets an early lead and finishes this item quickly, you apparently deserve to lose your lane. With Kalista, nothing about that thing should have made it past development, just like Yas.

Their kits are to blame - they're problematic, difficult to balance effectively, and the reason I don't consider either of them to be champions.

Madra1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Killer X 12,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=90tWsaJ3,comment-id=00090003,timestamp=2015-02-26T00:58:26.362+0000)

Even back when Yasuo was strong i didn't have to many issues with him in lane...it was just that he could of left lane 0-7 and still quad kill your team. Kalista however...its just not fair lol

An 0-7 Kalista isn't going to quad kill your team unless it's a sixty minute game and she's free farmed for most of it.

Killer X 121 votes

i 100% agree, i did not mean to imply Kalista had unfair amounts of damage. I meant that her kit is unfair, and technically if the other team has no point and click cc she could quad kill without any kills on her...but since its kalista she'll always have kills lol

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Ahri wasn't really a "healthy assassin". Once Charm was landed on you, there was nothing you could do. You were just dead.

Keevalroy1 votes

I could ask why you got hit by it. You would have to get caught out of position or be standing in front of your minions where she can line up a charm. It's not like it was a point-and-click ability to CC you, and because of the 20% amp it gave, it made sense that it costed a so much, rewarding you for hitting it, and punishing you for carelessly tossing it out.

I'd call her healthy because when we have Zed and LB with fail-safes built into their kits if something doesn't go right, an ult burn for an escape seems healthy. If Ahri made a mistake and got overconfident, diving as charm was being sent out while having it miss, she just burned her engage and escape for nothing unless she wanted to try and get a kill before having to flash or use the last charge to bail out.

Nothing related to the arguement - just of curiosity, would you say what she is now is healthier than what she was before DFG was taken out?

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

In all honestly, I get hit by it when she walks around the minions. When she walks around the minions, I walk around too, behind them. This always leads to me being on the wrong side of the lane and getting ganked at the same time. DEAD!

In a way, she has an escape like Zed and LB, but not as good, I will admit. If she makes a bad move, she has 3 dashes on her ult. STILL, that's a huge CD wasted, so I understand.

I think she is slightly healthier now than before, because there's some more counterplay now. I still think she won't be perfectly balanced until the True Damage off of her Q is taken out. I'm almost positive that is what will always keep her relevant. It's True Damage on a very low CD, but I guess it is my opinion.

What do you think about the True Damage on her Q? Do you think it's fine or problematic?

Keevalroy1 votes

What do you think about the True Damage on her Q? Do you think it's fine or problematic?

It's difficult to make an opinion. I do like it in the case where she's far behind, she still has the true damage to fall back on while she builds herself back up, however, it's still true damage on a low CD. I feel like the rework could have been a lot better keeping things like the power of her true damage in mind by not adding things like mobility to it.

What I would have expected from the whole DFG compensation thing was something along the lines of this:

Passive: Remains the same

Q: More damage, higher cost, higher cooldown, no speed increase

W: Kind of what we have at the moment, counting the nerfs that happened a little while ago.

E: Same damage, slightly higher scaling, 20% damage amp like it was before the rework

R: Same cooldown, slightly more damage, slightly increased range

This way, the assassin elements are preserved while she can still be played as a mage and be rewarded for landing abilities. One of my major criticisms of the new one wasn't just that assassin Ahri would die, it was that now she can just spam spells and run away before people can poke back, taking away the skill in playing her.

I realize she wasn't necessarily a complicated champion, but the mindless spamming playstyle was something I was really against when I saw this is what was happening to her.

KomePrePongo1 votes

More Ahri buffs? Are you nuts?

Keevalroy1 votes

You're not getting what I'm saying. This is how I thought the rework would have gone instead of what we have right now. Or at least something similar to what I gave.

Mohrb1 votes

I've never seen anyone seriously use revive... so, that doesn't bother me so much... but still, the option is better than not having the option. Diversity is a good thing.

Quill coat might have been a bit TOO easy mode in the jungle... but again... it was nice to see other champs able to jungle. Diversity is good.

Zed needs to be toned down, I agree.. lee sin isn't too bad. The problem is fizz. They keep nerfing everyone with a stun or escape or dash or anything on the basis of "it reduces counterplay" (the frigging point of supports)... yet I've never even seen them mention the POSSIBILITY of Fizz being problematic considering he has the highest mobility in the game and can kill people while untargetable by just hop dash hop dashing around.

Lee Sin can be stunned or polymorphed or knocked back... because he's in game. Being able to out-damage malzahar WHILE being out of game is ridiculous.

Curling Veigar12 votes

A red won't post here, just saying.

Direwolfiez9 votes

Reds don't post in Gameplay and Balance unless the original post is worded very carefully and it's about an issue they can't ignore any longer.

Saianna1 votes

from what i've seen reds do post. As long as it's about skins or "we love zeds/lee" threads.

LeeDark1 votes

Or if they can circlejerk with the OP about how great Riot is despite the ten other complaint threads that follow it.

Or if they can make jokes with the OP about how whiny the community is.

Those threads get a lot of Red attention.

Direwolfiez1 votes

Aaaaaand Meddler, the lone Rioter to respond to a Veigar thread, responds after days and probably hundreds of threads asking for explanations about his nerfs. Keep on proving me right, Riot.

BakedLotion6 votes

Reds dont post unless you're being a asskisser and say "THANK YOU RIOT FOR ____ YOU'RE THE BEST COMPANY EVER!" Then a red comes and says "Thank you too, our loyal player! We love making stuff people love!"

So unless your thread is like that, dont expect them to admit any of their mistakes

Conncept5 votes

This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I can totally understand the Kassadin nerfs, what I can't understand, is why they came before the dozens of other champs that have just as bad and even worse mobility problems, and some of them with more tankiness, damage, and utility than kassadin has ever had.

IAintDarius4 votes

{quoted}

  • You can't shove broccoli up the throat of a kid who doesn't like broccoli, you're supposed to find other ingredients or maybe a broccoli recipe that the kid likes so you can give him his veggies and he can enjoy his food ^^. We don't like these fuckin' veggies Rito. (You better upvote me for this retarded comparison)

This is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Especially since this is them making a recipe. But its overall dumb because no parent gives a shit about how hard you kick and scream when broccoli overall is better for you in the long run.

MCBiggah9911 votes

{quoted}

This is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Especially since this is them making a recipe. But its overall dumb because no parent gives a shit about how hard you kick and scream when broccoli overall is better for you in the long run.

Did you read what I said? You can still feed em the broccoli, but you gotta make the broccoli the way yo kid's gonna like it.

Direwolfiez4 votes

Upvoted for your retarded comparison :D

MCBiggah993 votes

{quoted}

Upvoted for your retarded comparison :D

Ty ^^

I do want Red attention on this thread eventually, so they can do what they have to. Actually, most of all, I just want them to acknowledge their mistakes.

WuWo4 votes

{quoted} - Revert every Veigar change and think this through more. You were supposed to give him a buff after he lost his DFG, not gut him more. Do you know the difference between changes and nerfs? Do you know the difference between buffs and nerfs?

This, very much so.

Honestly, Riot overestimated how much "extra" AP the new Q gives Veigar. There is a set amount of minions that spawn in X minutes. Just because the Q is a double shot, it doesn't mean you get double times the AP. In some ways, your Q can be worse to building your AP. If there is an near-death caster minion in the back row, your Q can't hit them without exposing yourself (since it is a skillshot; not targeted).

The W/E are impossible to land. I was hoping that this revamp would fix how old Veigar was so dependent on his stun. Well, I got that wish in a perverted way. The new Veigar is no longer dependent on his stun because the stun is worthless.

There can be reconciliation, however. You can simply leave Veigar as is but change his W/E to land faster per rank. This way, his early game is unaffected and his late game can shine like it did.

Damnimal3 votes

At least I didnt buy RP yet that I was planning to for a Kassadin skin woulda been way more upset had I done so lol

Hawkefire2 votes

Why does everyone forget about mordekaiser?

They literally nerfed his base health down to the point where it is basically the same as RIVENS.

Mandang02 votes

If Riot reverts the Kassadin changes, they'll LOSE any respect I still had for them after this patch. That's the only change I actually liked.

MeesterMoo2 votes

What game are you playing?

Mandang01 votes

The same one I've been playing for the last 2 years. Assassins have been sorta dominating the game for awhile now, and it wouldn't kill them to spend a little time down with the immobile mages they made irrelevant (if this Kassadin nerf even does that).

You might think Kass is in a bad place after this nerf, but think about all the APs you never see. They're never seeing play until Riot does something about the top tier, and leaving Kass untouched just because Nid or LB also has mobility isn't going to get us anywhere. There's more to the game than just the hypermobile champs...

MeesterMoo2 votes

He has 1 mobility ability that has limitations, and they nerf it so that it's barely a flash and you call him hyper mobile?

Mandang02 votes

Don't play dumb here - the difference is cooldowns. It's only 1 ability, but it's on a very low cooldown. Why bring up flash when that cooldown is over 4 minutes? If you're going to try to compare someone's mobility to Kass's, pick something with a similar cooldown or comparable lack of conditions on its use. Yea, Irelia could hypothetically jump down an entire lane if the creeps were lined up - that doesn't mean her mobility is at all comparable to Kassadin's, because it'll never happen.

Also, let's not pretend his ult's suddenly useless: It'll still let him jump over walls, still let him show up to skirmishes before his lane opponent, still let him escape ganks effortlessly, etc.

Damnimal2 votes

{quoted}

Don't play dumb here - the difference is cooldowns. It's only 1 ability, but it's on a very low cooldown. Why bring up flash when that cooldown is over 4 minutes? If you're going to try to compare someone's mobility to Kass's, pick something with a similar cooldown or comparable lack of conditions on its use. Yea, Irelia could hypothetically jump down an entire lane if the creeps were lined up - that doesn't mean her mobility is at all comparable to Kassadin's, because it'll never happen.

Also, let's not pretend his ult's suddenly useless: It'll still let him jump over walls, still let him show up to skirmishes before his lane opponent, still let him escape ganks effortlessly, etc.

Even pros are saying kassadin is pretty much dead now and will see a huge drop in play watch Saints patch breakdown for patch 5.4

Mandang01 votes

So this would mark the first time in how long that Kassadin was anything but strong?

Am I supposed to feel bad for Kassadin now that he's down with the other 80% of champions that aren't top tier? I for one welcome the newly-freed ban slot and changing of the guard at the top, and I look forward to the day that immobile, sustained-damage mages can make a return to the game.

Damnimal2 votes

So start buffing other champs not gutting them like Rito has with Azir most recently and now Kass and Veig

Mandang01 votes

Riot's been very clear why they don't do this - it's because buffing 80% of champions causes more power creep (and work) than nerfing the few problem champs.

As far as strength of balance changes, that's another matter, but if the choice is between this or nerfing Zed's attack speed, I'll take this. It's not like Kass hasn't had his time in the sun.

I think everyone agrees Veigar's was a bad nerf, but don't lump him in with Azir and Kass. The latter two deserved their nerfs, Veigar certainly didn't.

MCBiggah991 votes

{quoted}

Riot's been very clear why they don't do this - it's because buffing 80% of champions causes more power creep (and work) than nerfing the few problem champs.

As far as strength of balance changes, that's another matter, but if the choice is between this or nerfing Zed's attack speed, I'll take this. It's not like Kass hasn't had his time in the sun.

I think everyone agrees Veigar's was a bad nerf, but don't lump him in with Azir and Kass. The latter two deserved their nerfs, Veigar certainly didn't.

They deserved nerfs, but not these nerfs. This leads me to think that the balance team isn't thinking their decisions through properly. They gave Zed a slight attack speed reduction and that's it, that might've slightly affected him and now they can think through what his next nerf will be. In Azir and Kassadin's case, however, they went really hard on the nerfs, too hard. No slight nerfs, mixing and matching, taking the time. Just gutting.

Mandang01 votes

I wouldn't mind the slight nerfs if Riot's balance timetable wasn't already long as hell. Kassadin's been a thorn in many players' sides for over a year now (as evidenced by his banrates in all regions over that long timespan), and we've had to sit and watch as Riot tries lovetap nerfs on Kass to no avail.

I understand that this change might be too strong and it might get this one champion's balance wrong, but what about the bigger picture? When will I be able to play something mid that isn't extremely-mobile or extremely-ranged in mid? Lovetapping Kassadin (and Zed and others) is getting the balance even worse IMO because it's indirectly screwing everyone that isn't currently in play. So long as Riot kept beating around the assassin bush, we'd keep seeing assassins dominate. Sure, maybe we'd see a different assassin rise to the top, but that's selling the game's diversity short.

GnomeDigest1 votes

{quoted}

Riot's been very clear why they don't do this - it's because buffing 80% of champions causes more power creep (and work) than nerfing the few problem champs.

If that were true then Riot would just deal with Lee/J4/Vi/Rek rather than nerfing the entire jungle and saying they will buff that other 80% of junglers in compensation.

They take the exact opposite approach to that which you claim is their philosophy when it comes to S5 jungle.

Thats just a BS excuse they gave you for that reason. As much as Riot pretends they have overarching balance philosophies their track record proves that to be BS.

Mandang01 votes

{quoted}

If that were true then Riot would just deal with Lee/J4/Vi/Rek rather than nerfing the entire jungle and saying they will buff that other 80% of junglers in compensation.

They take the exact opposite approach to that which you claim is their philosophy when it comes to S5 jungle.

Thats just a BS excuse they gave you for that reason. As much as Riot pretends they have overarching balance philosophies their track record proves that to be BS.

Well, at least they're not still using it for Kassadin's bad balance.

RisottoNero2 votes

And we wouldn't want Kassadin to stop being a top pick and ban in every region. Since when is Kassadin someone who needs to be defended from nerfs. He is about as bad as the other champions people like to complain about and has been for a long time.

Damnimal2 votes

{quoted}

And we wouldn't want Kassadin to stop being a top pick and ban in every region. Since when is Kassadin someone who needs to be defended from nerfs. He is about as bad as the other champions people like to complain about and has been for a long time.

From Lolking he has a 40% ban rate and picked in roughly 10% of the games. Compared to Nidalee who is banned 60% of the time. The game is not just LCS look at all the stats. They killed him for LCS and everyone in soloq

RisottoNero2 votes

So if next patch someone gets buffed to heaven and gets more banned than Nidalee then she doesn't need nerfs anymore. Weak logic. He deserved that nerf and had it coming. Too bad Riot decided to take the long path of nerfing everything else before touching what needed the nerfs first.

MeesterMoo2 votes

Yes, and did you also know that 450 range is garbage to Kass players who know how short the length was already? Flash can be an extra escape for champs who don't have one. They basically turned his tp nuke into a tiny aoe hop that can barely go over the valley thing near mid and river. They could have reworked his Q instead of ruining his ultimate. The mana cost reduction is nothing. Every Kass has Mana by then. This is his ULT. It is his skill that he has to wait until 6 to get. And what is it? A trashy nuke with no range.

Mandang01 votes

"It's his ULT" - Then put it on an ULT-level cooldown timer.

Don't try playing up the fact that it's an ult when it's on a normal ability's cooldown.

Killer X 121 votes

...like any champion whose ult gives them three more abilities lol (Jayce/nid), they should get 2 min timers on their switches? Those switches are what identify those champions, just like Kass's ult is what defines him. Also his ult is similar in CD and cost to Kog's ult...should we reduce his range and put it on a 2 minute CD?

Also when Kass came out he wasn't the anti mage tank that he is now. Without his ult he not only didn't do much damage, but the only useful thing about his kit would of been his targeted silence (which is thankfully gone). The ult already goes up to retarded mana costs if you use it a few time.

The nerf right now is unjustified, and perhaps would of been a good nerf back before they did a little rework on him...but right now he is only being played because people are running double AP comps. As soon as this meta changes again they'll see how shitty Kass is again and they'll give him range back.

Mandang01 votes

{quoted}

Don't try playing up the fact that it's an ult when it's on a normal ability's cooldown.

Just in case you were having trouble getting the point.

Zazusha1 votes

[deleted]

DHKany6 votes

{quoted}

700 - 250 = 450 range?

Math hard, me no like skool.

700-250 is 450......

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