Is Riot thinking of an AD item which applies grievous wounds yet?

MCBiggah99·Sep 22, 2015·36 votes·7,741 views

Something to replace Executioner's Calling (RIP), y'know. Nothing overtuned, but useful in certain matchups like Vlad, the new juggernauts, Fiora, etc.

82 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirSep 22, 201533 votes

Yes. This doesn't mean it will go Live any time soon, but we do recognize the merits of such an item and are playtesting one regularly internally.

MCBiggah99Sep 22, 20152 votes

Sweet, thanks for the heads-up Repertoir!

UltîmaSep 22, 20152 votes

Which avenues are you exploring for an item like that? Are you thinking passive like Morello's or Executioner's, or an active with some different flavor?

Photos of GhostsSep 22, 20152 votes

I've asked this many times, but I'm going to ask again in hope for a response. Why can't we have less binary healing reductions, aka not necessarily 50% reduction but maybe stuff like more widespread 20% reduction and rarer 70%?

RiotMeddlerSep 22, 201510 votes

We'd like to keep Grievous Wounds at one consistent value - when you see it on a target it should be clear how much healing to that target's reduced. 50% isn't necessarily the correct value for that though, so we're also experimenting with other possible values (e.g. 30% or 40%, with healing on characters that would otherwise be abuse cases reduced if needs be to compensate).

HellioningSep 22, 201512 votes

I thought you guys were removing GW? It's kinda a terrible mechanic, like armor pen and magic pen. Either you balance around the counter being applied (in which case the thing being countered is ridiculously strong when the counter is not applied) or you balance around the counter not being applied (resulting in the thing being countered being neutered when it is.)

It's a lose lose situation and I'm not sure why you don't just remove GW and balance healing accordingly. And maybe look at Lifesteal too, while you're at it.

AbyssphereSep 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I thought you guys were removing GW? It's kinda a terrible mechanic, like armor pen and magic pen. Either you balance around the counter being applied (in which case the thing being countered is ridiculously strong when the counter is not applied) or you balance around the counter not being applied (resulting in the thing being countered being neutered when it is.)

It's a lose lose situation and I'm not sure why you don't just remove GW and balance healing accordingly. And maybe look at Lifesteal too, while you're at it.

I don't get the penetration comparison. I have never felt like tanks went from unkillable to worthless post-Last Whisper/Void Staff, that is a massively exaggerated myth.

HellioningSep 23, 20155 votes

When have you ever decided to not get Last Whisper as an ADC, or not get Void Staff as a heavy damage mage?

You're expected to get them. That's what the tank items are balanced for.

BiffoloSep 23, 20153 votes

Is that bad? You are expected to build to counter your opponents. They expect common sense from you.

HellioningSep 23, 20154 votes

Even when you are facing no opponents that are building armor or MR, it's still cost efficient to buy the armor/magic pen items. That's not 'countering', it's just straight up 'this item makes your deeps go up.'

BiffoloSep 23, 20152 votes

Is that really bad? You make it so you deal damage throughout the game to tanks, while still giving you a meaningful increase on squishies. Nothing really wrong there.

HellioningSep 23, 20153 votes

Apart from the fact that it's an itemization no-brainer? There is never a situation in which void staff/last whisper is a bad choice if you're dedicated to dealing damage.

AbyssphereSep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

When have you ever decided to not get Last Whisper as an ADC, or not get Void Staff as a heavy damage mage?

You're expected to get them. That's what the tank items are balanced for.

But what's the problem there? The reason Grievous Wounds is a problem is because it's so extreme. Healing without it is ridiculous, healing with it is horrendous. Tank stats before and after pen are nowhere near that extreme.

Yes you're expected to get Void Staff if you want to deal with a tank, just as you're expected to get flat pen, Luden's, Deathcap and so on to deal with squishies. But none of that is a problem as long as tanks aren't complete monsters before pen items and aren't basically squishies after penetration items.

The comparison doesn't work.

HellioningSep 23, 20153 votes

You don't get void staff if you want to deal with a tank. You get void staff because that's the best item you have.

We're not seeing penetration when it's at GW levels, we're seeing penetration at the levels it would take to make GW 'balanced', where it's basically a non-decision, just something you pick up.

Aych PiiSep 23, 20152 votes

Void staff is pretty lame if nobody's building MR, you'll want an abyssal or another item entirely in that case. Last Whisper is much better, comparatively. Somebody did the math on this somewhere if you want me to go try and find it.

The LovelessSep 23, 20151 votes

IMO Last Whisper is only better better not everyone has MR scaling, whereas EVERYONE gets more armor per level, on top of the fact that the only other options for penetration against squishies would be a measly 10 from Warrior & Ghostblade - neither of which are huge since everyone has more armor than MR.

HellioningSep 23, 20151 votes

Assuming that you're facing a team of champs that don't have scaling MR and have no MR items, runes, or masteries, and you only have a void staff, you're ignoring 10.5 of their MR each. Each point of MR costs 18 gold, so you're ignoring 945 gold worth of stats total. Each point of AP is 21.75 gold, meaning that the 80 AP on void staff is worth 1740 gold. That's 2685 gold for a void staff, an item that costs 2500. Meaning that worst case scenario, a void staff is cost efficent.

It's probably not the most damaging item in that VERY unlikely edge case, true, an Abyssal will probably beat it. But the fact that it's gold efficent in the worst case possible for it indicates something is up.

Aych PiiSep 24, 20151 votes

What the heck are you talking about? That's like saying that the 10 flat armor pen on the brutalizer is worth 1,000 gold because armor's worth 20 gold per point, and each member of the enemy team is being penetrated for 10 points.

HellioningSep 24, 20151 votes

You're penetrating 10 of their armor, not 20, but yes, that's basically it.

Aych PiiSep 27, 20151 votes

yes, sorry, that was a typo. But that's a ridiculous claim to make, because most of the Brutalizer's cost is tied up in the AD and CDR. The armor pen isn't worth that much.

Just on the face of things, you're assuming you're always going to be doing damage to five people for the cost analysis to make sense. And if there were a sixth person on the enemy team, suddenly that purchase would be worth more gold. Doesn't that strike you as a little off?

Auz the RipperSep 23, 20151 votes

That's because there are three stats tanks scale off of: Armor, MR and Health In season three when the pen changes happened and Armor and MR became worth a bit less, the tanks simply started stacking health

Riot even had to introduce items to stop it, it was such a problem

The LovelessSep 23, 20151 votes

If all you had was health and no armor/MR late game, you'll still get clobbered by mages dealing over thousands of damage, and adcs consecutively hitting for 1k+ a pop per auto. Armor & MR make it where you still need to sponge dozens of hits from the 5 enemies before going down.

I think mages just need to stack AP w/ a Deathcap to get the highest value, and at that point, cooldown reduction isn't needed when you're practically 1-shotting people. Adc on the other hand need so much to really work - the obvious ones are AD and penetration, but then there is crit chance, maybe even additional crit damage from IE, attack speed to get enough autos off, movespeed for kiting/chasing, lifesteal since you have no tank items to survive things, and maybe on-hits if that fits with your kit.

Really it's all because Riot wants to follow Dota's idea of "carries use basic attacks to deal damage," limiting what they can do with their abilities to be simple steroids such as "bonus attack speed/damage/%hp/double hit." Meanwhile, mages know they just need to land all skills and not worry much about kiting, since they have the best instagib potential and won't have to deal with opponents longer than a second or two.

Earl EulrichSep 23, 20152 votes

I sort of agree here - though I think if the numbers are done right (~20%) the mechanic could benefit the game, as it adds more choice into counterpicking/building specific other mechanics...thus making the game a little more diverse and strategic. Right now though it´s way too binary, making excessive healing either too strong without GV or too weak if GV gets applied.

HellioningSep 23, 20151 votes

They've stated they don't want games decided in champ select, so I think they're gonna keep removing GW from champ kits. Counterbuilding is more possible, but even then I have trouble thinking of a number that's low enough to not be required but high enough to be a good idea.

Sire HippingtonSep 23, 20151 votes

thats pretty odd considering the way Juggernauts turned out: More extreme strengths, more extreme weaknesses-> more binary regarding their matchups....

KaeblenSep 23, 20152 votes

you did not think that comment through very well.

ThryaleSep 22, 20152 votes

why not make grievous wounds something small like 20-25% and introduce a long cd powerful heal reducing active that applies "mortal wounds" which can then be 65-80% healing reduction?

g07h4xf00Sep 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We'd like to keep Grievous Wounds at one consistent value - when you see it on a target it should be clear how much healing to that target's reduced. 50% isn't necessarily the correct value for that though, so we're also experimenting with other possible values (e.g. 30% or 40%, with healing on characters that would otherwise be abuse cases reduced if needs be to compensate).

Rito increases the amount of healing in this game ( Soraka Fiora Darius Gangplank etc) while simultaneously DECREASING access to Grievous Wounds on items and champions. Now there's talk of making Grievous Wounds even worse??

Does Rito not understand what the term "balance" means? Take an equal scale with equal weights on both sides. Remove weight from one side. Add weight to the other side. What happens next, may surprise you.

ZedexSep 22, 201512 votes

Might I suggest an active item?

Seems like a constant grievous wound like the old executioners had would be baseline(for every carry) if it was given real stats.

An active item would give moments of outplay potential, and overall would seem more healthy to me then just, "haha, i AA'ed you, you can't heal now as long as I continue to"

An active item would open up windows of weakness where its not always up. that way it wouldn't invalidate champions with heals, like Bard and soraka.

AmelieSep 23, 20154 votes

But... the original executioner's was an active.... even after nerfing the duration and cooldown of the active, they still couldn't manage to balance it.

That said, I do miss this version of it. I remember using it vs Mundo back in the day :\

DorkunedAurasSep 23, 20152 votes

You're thinking of Sword of the Divine, Executioner's was passive

KoldheartedjspSep 23, 20152 votes

Old executioners calling

ZantumallSep 23, 20153 votes

Actually, Executioner's and Morello's were both originally actives. I think Executioner's got changed before Morello's did, though.

AmelieSep 23, 20153 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Executioner's_Calling

Executioner's was passive in one of its later patches. Check the patch history and see how it changed until removed. It definitely started as an active.

DorkunedAurasSep 23, 20151 votes

For the record, I was not playing when it was an active, I started in late S3, and in all my time, Executioner's (and morello) has been passive, until it was executed

ZedexSep 23, 20151 votes

While you're right about it starting as an active, I was unaware of that. Sorry if my post was confusing to you.

The iteration of the item I was speaking about, was the "On Hit" grievous wound effect for each basic attack made.

Again, sorry for that mix up, should have looked at the item history. I must have started playing very shortly after that. Seeing on the Calling's Wiki page it used to be like that, so again, my bad. Never got to experience that active portion of the item.

The LovelessSep 23, 20151 votes

Maybe if it was like morellos where the enemy had to be below 50% hp, and only then could you reduce their healing to have a better shot at landing a killing blow. It basically makes healers (who already have the advantage in being able to turn the tables) decide whether to overheal when not much damage has been done to them or an ally, or use it when grievous wounds kicks in.

EROTIC RAID BOSSSep 22, 20153 votes

I'm kind of a noob but this sounds kind of harsh for characters that do heal. I know you can itemize a bit against cc healing just seems less powerful in this game than cc does by a lot

TerchioSep 23, 20151 votes

It is harsh for healers, but until they remove Grievous Wounds from ignite, heal kits will be bent to offset possible Grievous Wounds abuse inherently, just through balance. That's just counterpick choices at its finest. While perma-wounds is harsher, it technically only lasts until that champion is dead, so it should instead just give you a better focus point: the owner of Grievous Wounds. If their whole team has Exec Blade/Morellonomicon, you'd think they'd be sacrificing a heavy amount of power to make that happen, and just crumble in teamfights, regardless of your heal.

The CC point is basically valid, but that's mostly because Riot wanted a PvP fighting game, not a fortifications-based stronghold game. They have held down supports and buffed up assassins for as long as I can remember. I hate that, but I can't say this game isn't fun, as much as it irks me sometimes.

GastonBarnaclesSep 23, 20151 votes

Can you bring back atmas?

Balmor0Sep 24, 20151 votes

If that item comes rip aatrox. (unless riot lessens his heal and increases his dmg and base stats and removes the revive and give him a viktors passive of getting an item that can be upgraded)

StephenizgodSep 24, 20151 votes

This is probably going to get downvoted, but would it be possible for a Tank item to have Grievous Wounds? There is a lot of talk about giving Thornmail Grievous Wounds, but then that would make it a must buy just because most ADC's build Lifesteal. I'm thinking more of a team buff where you activate it and for X amount of time ally AA's will apply Grievous Wounds (which i think is way overkill). Something along those lines though where it helps out your teammates, it could also be a "When you are at X amount of stacks your next AA/Ability will apply Grievous Wounds for Y amount of time" i kind of like the stacks mechanic on items although there are a lot of them already.

The Bíg TicketSep 22, 20155 votes

So Mundo's winrate drops even further?

KaeblenSep 23, 20151 votes

I personally think Mordekaiser 's Q should become DrMundo 's new E. would make so much more sense than where it is now.

RalanrSep 23, 20151 votes

Please no...Mundo is terrifying enough late game.

Kitten of EvilSep 22, 20153 votes

I think they were always less comfortable with it being on an auto-attack than a spell. Spells usually have longer cooldowns and Morellonomicon's GW trigger is conditional (lower than 40% HP), so there is an opportunity to get away from the spell or heal out of the HP range.