I like how you all use the win rate/pick rate argument with Vayne, but when we start talking Ahri...

MCBiggah99·Aug 30, 2015·93 votes·6,614 views

It's suddenly a different situation and the argument is null and void. Consistency pls.

171 Comments

Very Hard EngageAug 30, 201561 votes

<--- ahri main. yes ahri is in fact too good right now....

its not her power, its her reliability. charm/ult available too often.

vayne is OP because she has mobility on a 2 second CD (which also resets her AA), a targeted stun (which is available so long as you aren't aiming right down the lane, you seriously cant miss if you aim perpendicular in relation to the lanes) and a passive which says you either have an escape mechanism or you're forced to 1v1.

so congrats you're forced to fight a carry with a stun! and she has lifesteal/stun/max %health true damage! and because all the AD items are pretty even across the board, it doesn't really matter how much raw AD she lacks because her AS/Crit make up for it to even out. compared with other ADC's against vayne, it JUST SO HAPPENS, to have utility as an ADC.

basically vayne gets to choose when she fights, and her %health makes it so it doesn't matter what you build. there is no counter besides range (which she tumbles in/out of) or hard CC. since targeted abilities have been steadily declining, it makes vayne a much more prevalent pick.

Dunkrius2gAug 30, 20154 votes

so congrats you're forced to fight a carry with a stun! and she has lifesteal/stun/max %health true damage! and because all the AD items are pretty even across the board, it doesn't really matter how much raw AD she lacks because her AS/Crit make up for it to even out. with other ADC's and vayne JUST SO HAPPENS, to have utility as an ADC.

Her Ults makes up for her less AD, thats why you will see her rush BOTRK and such instead of a IE. Another thing you can add to your sentence.

(If you guys are wondering how much here it is: 30 / 50 / 70 AD).

MCBiggah99Aug 30, 201521 votes

I actually like where this is going, we're having a proper discussion now. Thanks for the input from a main's viewpoint.

ReshiKillimAug 30, 201514 votes

{quoted}

I actually like where this is going, we're having a proper discussion now. Thanks for the input from a main's viewpoint.

Not an Ahri main, just someone who's played her since her release x3 (I'm actually a Shaco main)

I just wanted to clear up the clarity issues people who haven't been familiar with her in the long run have, as Riot isn't sure what they're doing with her kit.

Back during DFG times and Assassin meta, Ahri players did tons of damage more but were always worried that the enemies might pick Talon.

By the way, Talon is still an Ahri hard counter. Galio is still strong against her (Galio was one of the few tanks that was strong during assassin meta) Swain still outsustains her and punishes her hard for trying to get close enough to point-blank combo, Leblanc and Annie are still too bursty for our foxy.

^These champs have been known to be strong in mid against Ahri for ages and is something that most long time players are familiar with. Tragically enough, Swain, Talon, Galio, and Leblanc as of recent are all unpopular even though they're all still extremely strong.

Once Leblanc stopped being popular after she got some slight nerfs to her damage and her broken silence removed, which removed one of Ahri player's biggest worries as they'd only have to ban Annie (Which a lot of people like to ban even if not playing Ahri)

Currently, Annie is the most played Ahri counter with a pick rate of 9% Leblanc has 7% Galio has under 1% Talon has 3% and Swain almost 2%

These low pick rates are the reason why Ahri seems so strong without counterplay in general, because her counters have very low pick rates which has caused her pick rate to inflate further.

Though the refocusing of her kit is needed, people also need to be aware that champions that counter Ahri do exist.

VerxintAug 31, 201517 votes

Why is it that whenever someone says "X champ seems statistically OP", defenders always go "Well these are their counters hurrr" when that's usually not the point of the discussion?

Ahri's problem is pretty simple to me - she's too safe. Her biggest weakness wasn't talon or Leblanc, is was her zero mobility pre-6 and when ult is down.

I still wanna know what Riot was smoking when they decided to give Ahri a buff that negated her biggest and most exploitable weakness.

Jeanne fan clubAug 31, 20153 votes

the Q movement speed? You do understand that everything Riot gave her after the DFG removal was reverted right? Everything in her kit was nerfed other than receiving the Q movement speed.

Kosm1KAug 31, 20152 votes

That Q movement speed is everything she needs to be safe though. An ahri could win unfavorable lanes by Qing and running back. I've played Talon and leblanc against an ahri and while they are strong against her, the lane is in no way easy due to the movement speed that comes with the Q. If she feels that I'm going to jump on her with lb? just a simple Q to get out of range. Only with talon can the lane be a bit easier, and even then, a good ahri will save her charm until I E to her so that she can escape my range with her Q ms. The slow from Rake is nowhere near enough to catch up, if there's even time to cast it before she's out of range

Edit: I also forgot to mention the fact that she has a total of 3 dashes in her ult, all of which are capable of dashing over walls

Jeanne fan clubAug 31, 20154 votes

Alright, I know for certain that you are playing the matchups wrong. If she is Q-ing then running back you are able to zone her. Her Q costs a lot of mana so she will run out of it and eventually have 0 Kill pressure. Try and keep her below 40% mana, I believe that this is the minimum amount required for a full combo. The reason Leblanc and Talon have favorable matchups in those lanes is because they have minimal skillshots and are mostly targeted abilities with a lot of burst damage and mobility. Ultimately targeted abilities counter Ahri at all stages of the game because of how squishy she is.

Ahri is completely skillshots while talon and leblanc are all targeted. The way to win lane is just to zone her and not make mistakes, such as being ganked because you are over extended or not standing behind minions. Sure an Ahri who plays correctly and wards their lane can never be ganked, but that goes for literally every single other champion in the game.

An Ahri match up is completely skill based, which means the more skilled player will always come out ahead. Need I mention how easy it is to zone her? I can go into a game as a 3rd time swain against an Ahri main and come out of the laning phase with 7 kills and 0 deaths by simply dodging her skillshots. If you are hit by a skillshot in lane it is completely your fault and not the champion being "OP." Her charm is telegraphed and has such a small hit box to the point where even if you are late on the reaction you should still be able to dodge it. Her Q is an easy side step, and even if you are hit by one proc you can easily dodge the return.

If the Ahri is running up, throwing Q-s and running away she isn't winning lane. Unless you suck at farming, you will come out of that lane ahead. If she makes a mistake like staying near the wave or missing her charm, you jump on her regardless, targeted abilities don't miss. Also calling mia is an important way to win lane, Ahri generally has a hard time winning lane and tends to roam to compensate for it.

NineTailedMysticAug 31, 20158 votes

You mean how she was ACTUALLY COMPENSATED unlike other mages who lost DFG? Her net changes have since 5.2 have been: Q mana cost up, Q MS boost, a NERF to her W range, higher base damage and ap scaling on Charm (and losing the damage amp on it), and a NERF to her ult target acquisition range. Oh, and a passive sustain nerf.

YumaS2AstralAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not an Ahri main, just someone who's played her since her release x3 (I'm actually a Shaco main)

I just wanted to clear up the clarity issues people who haven't been familiar with her in the long run have, as Riot isn't sure what they're doing with her kit.

Back during DFG times and Assassin meta, Ahri players did tons of damage more but were always worried that the enemies might pick Talon.

By the way, Talon is still an Ahri hard counter. Galio is still strong against her (Galio was one of the few tanks that was strong during assassin meta) Swain still outsustains her and punishes her hard for trying to get close enough to point-blank combo, Leblanc and Annie are still too bursty for our foxy.

^These champs have been known to be strong in mid against Ahri for ages and is something that most long time players are familiar with. Tragically enough, Swain, Talon, Galio, and Leblanc as of recent are all unpopular even though they're all still extremely strong.

Once Leblanc stopped being popular after she got some slight nerfs to her damage and her broken silence removed, which removed one of Ahri player's biggest worries as they'd only have to ban Annie (Which a lot of people like to ban even if not playing Ahri)

Currently, Annie is the most played Ahri counter with a pick rate of 9% Leblanc has 7% Galio has under 1% Talon has 3% and Swain almost 2%

These low pick rates are the reason why Ahri seems so strong without counterplay in general, because her counters have very low pick rates which has caused her pick rate to inflate further.

Though the refocusing of her kit is needed, people also need to be aware that champions that counter Ahri do exist.

I would like to know how Talon is supposed to counter Ahri. She can harass him during the early game and everytime he tries to jump on her, she can charm him. He was indeed a counter during the time he had a silence, but now everytime that I see this matchup, Ahri always wins.

LeBlanc is also another champion that I don't know how she is supposed to counter Ahri, as Ahri can outpush her and evade her burst.

ReshiKillimAug 31, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I would like to know how Talon is supposed to counter Ahri. She can harass him during the early game and everytime he tries to jump on her, she can charm him. He was indeed a counter during the time he had a silence, but now everytime that I see this matchup, Ahri always wins.

LeBlanc is also another champion that I don't know how she is supposed to counter Ahri, as Ahri can outpush her and evade her burst.

Talon still is strong against Ahri, and still possesses the damage needed to burst her down without the silence. Ahri's charm and Q are not as dangerous for an experienced Talon as you may think, as they're both pretty easy to dodge if you're familiar with her ranges.

If he plays like someone who knows what they're doing, he can dodge poke and CS safely while punishing any attempts to dive him. (Not tower dive, just laning defensively for a little bit then she get's out scaled unless he does something stupid)

Many Ahri players (Including me) often fall for the old Talon leap bait where he act's like he's going to leap to you, but doesn't immediately which wastes a combo on the air. It's also extremely easy to fall for it, which is a problem which even plagues Plat/Dia players.

Leblanc has more mobility and her chains, which is an advantage that is underestimated. One single chain can force Ahri to either blow her ult/flash, or die. If Ahri doesn't get out of the chain tether range fast, that's often a death if it snares her.

Do note that an Ahri main will always beat someone who's new to Talon, although he's a counter he's not a Rammus press W to counter ADC style counter. On an even skill floor, Talon will hold the advantage and Ahri will have to be wary.

I urgot about itSep 1, 20152 votes

People that ahri is weak against are point click people and slippery targets Swain, zed, lb (debatable since ahri can stop lb's w but lb's passive can take damage from w and r and out trades the fox), Annie, talon, yasuo (wall blocks everything but if you bait out wall with w and q then kite and do combo after stalling you can win, and yasuo is squishy), Galio, there's more but I can't really think of them at the moment. Anyways she has lots of counter play and you can technically avoid most of her damage. I think she is good right now because even after her passive nerfs, at around 40% CDR her ult has a cd of 47 seconds or so (not going to check but it's roughly around there), it's just that pre 6 and when ult isn't up, she is dead meat if caught.

I urgot about itSep 1, 20152 votes

That's just my opinion though, I only main ahri mid after all sorry if it isn't true

A Miss FortuneAug 31, 20153 votes

I think with consistent nerfs to most other ADCs and indirect/direct buffs to BoRK, Vayne has slowly tumbled to being a top pick ADC. It might be that Vayne has always been overpowered yet people haven't in large realized it until not that long ago, but it might just be because most ADCs are so weak right now. There's a lot of ways to look at the entire ADC role in general just by looking at Vayne. Sure by all means Vayne is more than likely stronger than she should be, but what about all other ADCs?

Right now most ADCs aren't that strong, not necessarily in comparison to each other but in comparison to other roles. They NEED their team by their side all game long regardless of how fed they are. If you don't position perfectly, know how to build perfectly, and have a really strong team behind you at all times including a really good Support, you're going to be so ineffective since nearly any Mid, Top, and now Jungler can instakill you with almost nothing you can do about it. There's no "oops i messed up" button like a lot of Mid or Top laners have. Mobility, CC, sustain, and the few ADCs that actually do have one of these components are the only ones ever played in the LCS. If you mess up, you die. Even then your self peel tools rarely guarantee your survival.

I don't think just saying nerf Vayne and forget she ever was an extremely powerful pick is a good idea (not saying you said that either, but most people seemingly are) and instead using her to help look at the Marksmen role in general would be better. Using her to model what a strong or overpowered ADC looks like in comparison to the rest.

LaowPingAug 31, 20154 votes

The thing with Vayne is that she's immune to the woes of ADC because she works so much differently.

Most ADC's need their team to protect and can't do anything alone, but are meant to make up for it with what they provide for the team, such as wave clear, team fighting damage, and sieging. Vayne is the exact opposite. She prefers to fight on her own and can protect herself, but lacks the wave, team fighting (her team fighting is actually pretty weak unless she's nearly full build or fed) and doesn't take towers very quickly. The weakpoint of many ADC's is the delay it takes to be relevant. The need the expensive, hard to build (fuck you bf sword), then the need attack speed, then they need armor pen, and now they can dish out damage before getting jumped on by everyone in the game. Vayne can just get bortk and be K, especially after the item got buffed (which is around the time all the Vayne hate starting rolling in).

Vayne has less hard counters since her hard counters aren't very meta anymore. Graves and Lucian have fallen out of popularity. Caitlyn is ok but she can get duels by Vayne after level 6 if she wasn't aggressive enough. Champions with good zoning a la Azir and Victor seem to be getting less play. Cassiopia could probably zone out Vayne as well but I just recently saw someone saying she was in a weak spot right now. Brand might be able to get the job done but I've barely seen him. You can still pick Corki and rek her for a good bit but I barely see him in solo que.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbAug 31, 20155 votes

Vayne's ult also gives her a lot of AD, further solidifying the only attack speed builds.

And now stats(sorry if I miss something, it's easy to miss small details) (I didn't count morde) Vayne has the 2nd highest AD scale of any ADC (behind draven) and the 2nd highest level 18 AD of any ADC. Vayne has the highest AS scale of any champ in the game and the highest level 18 AS. She also has the 4th base attack speed of any adc, meaning she gets a lot of attack speed when she builds it.

What this ultimately means, when combined with her silver bolts, is that vayne is heavily rewarded for building attack speed. This is why she's still a threat if she doesn't both building IE.

Livin like RivenAug 31, 20155 votes

{quoted}

<--- ahri main. yes ahri is in fact too good right now....

its not her power, its her reliability. charm/ult available too often.

vayne is OP because she has mobility on a 2 second CD (which also resets her AA), a targeted stun (which is situational, unlike Ahri's) and a passive which says you either have an escape mechanism or you're forced to 1v1.

so congrats you're forced to fight a carry with a situational stun! and she has ~~lifesteal given by items~~/~~situational stun~~/max %health true damage! and because all the AD items are pretty even across the board, it doesn't really matter how much raw AD she lacks because her AS/Crit make up for it to even out - because every single adc should only build the same items!!! Compared with other ADC's against vayne, it JUST SO HAPPENS, to have utility as an ADC - because its not like almost every single other adc has utility.

basically vayne gets to choose when she fights, and her %health makes it so it doesn't matter what you build. there is no counter besides range (which she tumbles in/out of) or hard CC. since targeted abilities have been steadily declining, it makes vayne a much more prevalent pick.

Fixed for you.

And an adc is given lifesteal by items woooo heresy, disable lifesteal on Vayne.

Also, Ashe has an aoe stun, Varus has a potential aoe root, Kalista has an aoe knockup. And you choose to use Vayne's situational stun as an argument about how strong she is.

Lady HammerlockAug 31, 20155 votes

is it wrong that i don't hate ahi just because most of her dmg is skill shots i always loop around minion when i fight her so I'm not charmed

Baby GhoulAug 30, 201511 votes

All these toxic Ahri players saying Vayne and Riven need to be nerfed with the rest of us, but not realizing who would be next on the chopping block.

Jeanne fan clubAug 31, 20155 votes

? how are Ahri players being toxic? I haven't seen any Ahri players on the boards overly defend her without giving ideas on how to help balance her out a little bit. I think players should learn to counterplay champions instead of QQ about them. Either way you are being hypocritical.

Baby GhoulAug 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Trianglez,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PdkK8plv,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2015-08-31T02:38:58.358+0000)

? how are Ahri players being toxic? I haven't seen any Ahri players on the boards overly defend her without giving ideas on how to help balance her out a little bit. I think players should learn to counterplay champions instead of QQ about them. Either way you are being hypocritical.

Wrong. Learn what hypocritical means.

Most of it was in a joking manner, but Ahri mains were notorious around here for down voting anything that hinted at a slight nerf. That's why I'm glad people are starting to have a more honest conversation about her. Nobody is QQing about her, and trust me I wouldn't be trying to climb without learning about other champions. The fact of the matter is that Ahri has been at the top of the pack for so long now, and she could use some balancing because she is way too good right now. By toxic I meant that Ahri herself is toxic in her current state because of how reliable and safe she is when she's an assassin.

Nobody is saying gut her. However she's been a God tier pick for a lot longer than most champions, so you shouldn't be QQing that people are starting to ask for some changes concerning her. OP was talking about how she's not far behind Vayne in the win and pick rate, but we were never aloud to discuss that until very recently.

Jeanne fan clubAug 31, 20154 votes

No I'm not QQ-ing, I'm just slightly annoyed that people are asking to gut her. I have seen a lot of posts asking to gut her and make her unviable for being "anti fun" when in reality people refuse to acknowledge her weaknesses. The joke may have gone over my head in the post TBH, sry if anyone got the wrong impression. I think a good nerf for her is to lower her ult's damage by making it do less damage to the same target, like how her W works. In my opinion the Q ms is necessary because it compensates for the cast time so kiting is safer. It also helps her avoid bad trades because she can only trade with her Q (while most other midlaners trade with 2+ abilities) The reason she is so safe and reliable is because people never target her in teamfights, her range on Ult and W has been nerfed to the point of being targetable in a teamfight. Her Q ms could scale with ability level though, I wouldn't oppose an idea like that.

BudupopsAug 30, 201510 votes

its because of the toxic ahri players

MCBiggah99Aug 30, 20155 votes

I'm not sure whose fault it is, but I know that I dislike it.

BudupopsAug 30, 20158 votes

yep. same thing with jinx

MCBiggah99Aug 30, 20153 votes

Dunno about Jinx, her ult and Q scalings got nerfed pretty harsly a while ago.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 30, 20154 votes

Oh man the irony of this post lol

OkamiwanAug 31, 201510 votes

And then you realize that nobody cares about what the boards have to say, and any champion will be tweaked and changed as Riot feels necessary based on the highest tier of competitive play. Not what a bunch of people who claim to know what they're talking about.

Here's the raw facts.

Ahri's ratios fall well below most other assassin based AP champions.

Ahri's mobility and ability to stay safe are her strongest assets.

Complaining that her crowd control has a low cooldown is idiotic. Her hit box on e was lowered, and damage lowered. If you can't get out of the way then learn to walk sideways.

Taking away her cooldowns will destroy her ability to compete. Reduce her mobility and she'll hit low pick rate in an hour.

Just deal with the fact that she is a champion who can destroy someone 1v1 who get's caught by her only sense of crowd control. And if you don't have the intelligence to either dodge it, stand behind a minion, stand behind your tank, or to build some magic resist so that her kit doesn't melt you, then I don't think that she's the problem. (And for those of you who are talking about, "ERR, BUT SHE DOES TRUE DAMAGE YOU KNOB GOBBLER" well, tough nuts. Yes, she does true damage. On a return of her skill shot. So yeah, moving to the side.

If she's too safe, well harsh. Learn to farm. You have an entire lane of minions to make sure she can't but poke with her q and maybe her w. And if you are too afraid of her e, well.. guess what, there's a wonderful new lane called top lane. It sounds perfect for someone who does the following. A: Is a chicken to any type of cc. B: Hates when people escape under tower because you can't calculate your damage. And C: Won't get shutdown in the game because you're stupid. So yeah, grab garen, go top, take teleport, and do nothing the whole game. Let some mid laners who can counterplay counterplay, and let the Ahri's be ahri. If she's so powerful, play her. And if she can't be counterplayed, then congrats, you win. Bet it isn't even that easy. But yeah, congrats on coming to a board to complain because an Ahri dunked on you since you can't dodge pink floating things.

MewkoAug 31, 20155 votes

I main Ahri and not to sound toxic against those who agree Ahri should be nerfed/tuned down but she is already a weak champ in skill/damage/defense (unless played passively). For one, she doesn't have the true damage early game, her only reliability is her mobility and cc. Some decide to play her passively or aggressively. There's no point to tune down her q when so many of her enemies can simply dodge her pokes. It's already a struggle to poke your enemy guessing which side they might take in order to q them UNLESS you fall into her charm but even so, taking away her cooldown? Her passive? What more can she do? Also, she isn't an easy mage to begin with, she does take skill. Yes, her q and e must land on the enemy cause if not all she's got is her ult to escape while her skills remain on cooldown and mana drains therefore you have an easy kill on her. Reminder, mid laners usually play ranged champs and if assasins, you've got a good chance to counter her.

IcyPepperAug 30, 20159 votes

Ahri is fun to play, and a relatively easy mage to pick up for people who want to learn midlane.

Needs nerfs tho. Q movespeed doesn't make sense, while she may be the kiting mage I think her mobility should be tied to her ult, not a basic ability.

Is that a decent compromise between the two mindsets?

ReshiKillimAug 30, 201524 votes

{quoted}

Ahri is fun to play, and a relatively easy mage to pick up for people who want to learn midlane.

Needs nerfs tho. Q movespeed doesn't make sense, while she may be the kiting mage I think her mobility should be tied to her ult, not a basic ability.

Is that a decent compromise between the two mindsets?

So far, I see the majority of complaints are about the mechanics she's had since she was released. They simply don't want her to be anything other than a harmless foxgirl with big boobs. Not even joking.

People don't want her heal passive that's been there since she was released, they don't want her true damage that's been there since she was released, they don't want her ult that's been there since she was released, or her charm either. And this is after her whole kit has been nerfed a lot.

Last time there were any big (and sensible) complaints about Ahri's kit, was when the DFG Charm combo let her kill squishies in around one second at point blank range.

I've found that the least of the complaints I've seen were about things like the MS boost.

Mostly, I believe I can sum up the majority of current complaints as: "We don't want a high damage Mage/Assassin with mobility or the ability to trade"

Funniest thing is, that the complaints are mainly recent and back when she was stronger there was less QQing over her. Most likely because more people played Talon, thus knowing how to play against her.

IcyPepperAug 30, 201510 votes

So people hate her entire kit.

Damn.

What do people want with that fox girl? Just a gutting?

ReshiKillimAug 30, 201514 votes

{quoted}

So people hate her entire kit.

Damn.

What do people want with that fox girl? Just a gutting?

Pretty much. They want nerfs, rather than counterplay. And whenever I bring up counterplay when it comes to Ahri, the typical response has been "You can't kill her if she has Zhonya's"

Even though you can find out that she can't lane against a Leblanc, Talon, Annie, Swain, or Galio without making Challenger-tier (Or at least one tier higher then the opponent Ahri is up against) plays just by using google, people are still adamantly refusing that there is counterplay to League's lil'foxy.

MCBiggah99Aug 30, 20153 votes

But her numbers are too high, statistics > arguments you pull from wherever. She needs to be tuned down.

ReshiKillimAug 30, 201511 votes

{quoted}

But her numbers are too high, statistics > arguments you pull from wherever. She needs to be tuned down.

Her numbers are a little bit off, yes. I agree with that, they could use some tweaking. But not the large-scale nerfs people have been asking for, not to mention she got a big impact on sustain due to this patch's nerf.

The reason why Ahri is too strong vs Non-counters, is because Riot won't make up their minds on how she is to be played. She was designed as a high mobility high damage caster assassin with some heals for utility, however Riot isn't emphasizing any one facet of her kit.

If they either went all the way with mobile assassin caster or sustained kite mage, she'd be very well balanced. But currently, Riot has her in a position where she has a bit of both which has made her strong against all non-counters.

So in recap: She's currently in a bit of a mess. When she's not against a counter, she's overall a very safe and good pick no matter the enemy team comp. But when countered, she's in a very dangerous place.

What Ahri needs most is not a nerf, but balancing her kit towards either being a sustained kite mage by lowering ability costs and damage or increasing damage and costs by making her the high mobility cast based assassin she was designed to be.

If her kit was refocused instead of nerfed, the majority of the complaints would be gone. She'd excel at one field, while being decent at the rest. Instead of the current jack of all trades.

BakedLotionAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much. They want nerfs, rather than counterplay. And whenever I bring up counterplay when it comes to Ahri, the typical response has been "You can't kill her if she has Zhonya's"

Even though you can find out that she can't lane against a Leblanc, Talon, Annie, Swain, or Galio without making Challenger-tier (Or at least one tier higher then the opponent Ahri is up against) plays just by using google, people are still adamantly refusing that there is counterplay to League's lil'foxy.

I only agree with talon and Annie. Ahri can charm leblanc's w or ult away ,which is most of her damage since she needs it to proc her q's, and she'll probably max the w since she needs extra mobility and waveclear against ahri.

Swain... Is just terrible now and cant beat anyone

Jeanne fan clubSep 1, 20152 votes

Seriously? Swain is EXTREMELY strong. His teamfighting is amazing and he is almost impossible to kill in one. His zone and harass ability is extremely strong too.

LaowPingAug 31, 20156 votes

The majority of the boards can be summed up with "This champion does damage and I don't like it"

Silents429Sep 1, 20154 votes

"I got outplayed once so this champion is broken"

Hullabaloo907Aug 30, 20159 votes

I thought they just nerfed ahri

TyroneWatermelonAug 30, 20158 votes

and riven

TurquoiseYoshiAug 30, 20158 votes

Because Vayne haters can back up those stats with analyzing of her abilities. Ahri has a pretty balanced ability set, at least at first glance. She also isn't ridiculously toxic to play against.

MCBiggah99Aug 30, 20154 votes

No, they can't. I can give you an entire list of weaknesses that Vayne has (which is what these Ahri mains do for Ahri) but it still doesn't make Vayne weaker in any way, shape or form. Numbers don't lie, arguments can be twisted.

Daedalus871Aug 30, 201530 votes

You can only play Ahri with one hand.

MCBiggah99Aug 30, 20152 votes

Topkek, best comment in this entire discussion.

theragingnerdAug 31, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Topkek, best comment in this entire discussion.

look bud its maybe that you have a problem with her but shes a easy too counter champion with multiple weaknesses and if messes up in lane can't just tumble condemn the fuck out of there lest she wastes her REQUIRED too assassinate ult

kneel on IceAug 31, 20158 votes

Even after nerf you keep hating on ahri , pff chill please

powerbatsAug 31, 20155 votes

The issue isn't that's she's over powered like she was with DFG or Lb with it or any other mage assassin with it. She's actually not all that safe if you play against her correctly. Talon, Annie, Galio, LB can all cause her huge trouble and has been said she can really only use q since they nerfed Foxfire into the ground. She's where she should be because she's an assassin and needs the mobility because without it she's gutted. If she doesn't land her charm when she ults she's screwed.

While she might need some slight tuning using pick rates/win rates is just giving yourself confirmation bias that someone is too weak/too strong in your mind. The reason why she's picked a lot is because she's a lot easier to learn than before whereas other mid's like Lb are a lot harder to learn to play mid. Anyone complaining about that hasn't played her a lot to learn her strengths and weaknesses shouldn't complain until they do so.

As far as saying some mains were on here being toxic that's true of any main on this board, all you need to do is go look at each nerf bat post request on the boards.

Oh and if you want toxic defensiveness all I'll say is "Lee Sin".

DeynaTaggerungAug 31, 20154 votes

First things first...I'm not really an OP caller about any champ, especially when there are a million factors involved in League of Legends most obviously skill level. I am also not an ahri main but have enjoyed playing her often since lvl20 which was a long time ago

So, at the moment Ahri is indeed a very safe pick with decent damage numbers and good kiting ability. However I'd be very hesitant to make an serious changes to her as a champ because her playstyle isn't toxic. With all her skillshots counterplay can oftentimes be as simple as dodging well.

A simple example of this is Ahri vs. Leblanc (which is btw my favorite lane matchup of all time) where Leblanc's damage is way more consistent so it's all a mindgame of the Ahri player learning her opponent's patterns and predicting the dash forward with a charm. If Leblanc is good at dodging and being unpredictable Ahri loses. Now it won't always be that cut and dry but the same principle applies to any Ahri lane. It's a complicated mind game which I feel makes the game more fun for either side

So Ahri is a bit strong in this meta, it's interesting because with very few to no changes to her over time Ahri's viability has always fluctuated on the edge up and down. Which in my opinion is the mark of a well made champion because it's pretty low maintenance. It's also kind of a delicate balance, do too much and Ahri might just end up broken.

TLDR: Ahri is currently on the strong side of things but not so far out of line she needs to be beaten back, maybe neatly trimmed by a careful gardener

Jeanne fan clubSep 2, 20152 votes

Ahri is on the strong side of things because tanks aren't there to eat her charms for their team. Squishy devourer Jg's are the meta and that's where Ahri thrives, outplaying, punishing mistakes, and squishy targets that she can kite and burst down. Then again, most other assassins do more damage than her and would probably thrive more than her.