Fuck me for thinking an immobile bruiser that has been shit for more than 2 years would get a buff.
I wish Riot wouldn't tell us Darius is getting buffed, post a HEALTHY buff, then shit on our hearts by removing it.
Fuck this shit.
Sightless6652 votesOn the PBE, a change being reverted doesn't mean it isn't coming. There have been plenty of past instances where PBE changes were reverted and still ended up in the next patch. It's just part of how the PBE works.
It is possible that they've really decided not to buff him, but until there is more information we can't assume that.
IsIsGankedParis8 votesI hope that's true.
OyddAWqJ5r8 votesAs he said, typically changes are removed before going live. It's sort of like saying "We like this change and it doesn't need more testing so we're temporarily removing it from PBE so people will be more likely to test out other things".
That's just a hypothesis.
GaleWinUnleashed4 votesI'd expect them back if I were you. It's not exactly a complicated change, so there aren't really bugs to test for. It's just been removed for the moment, but will probably go Live next patch anyway.
RiotMeddler46 votesWe're still effectively planning to make that change to Darius' ult. We decided today it would be better to have the ult refund 0/50/100% of its cost though, rather than having its cost drop (still allows ult chaining, but also means an OOM Darius can't ult which is something we'd like to preserve). Since we're right at the lock point for gameplay changes for the next patch we'll need to shift these changes a patch later to make that modification.
TLDR: Still coming, probably in two patches time.
IsIsGankedParis8 votesOh so he IS keeping these changes?
Thank god, I thought you guys were ready to forsake Darius for another 2 years or something.
Thanks for clearing it up Meddler.
CrazedPorcupine3 votesBut what about all the other buffs that you reverted? The Veigar Q range buff and cooldown buff? Why'd you get rid of those?
JusticePauldrons6 votesIs there any changes to Garen coming up to allow him to try to keep up with this? Players have been discussing a cd reduction to his ult for ages and I have yet to see anyone comment on whether this could happen or if there is already something in the pipeline for it.
Sinister Snail2 votesWe're still effectively planning to make that change to Darius' ult. We decided today it would be better to have the ult refund 0/50/100% of its cost though, rather than having its cost drop (still allows ult chaining, but also means an OOM Darius can't ult which is something we'd like to preserve). Since we're right at the lock point for gameplay changes for the next patch we'll need to shift these changes a patch later to make that modification.
TLDR: Still coming, probably in two patches time.
Hey cool, always nice to hear red post clarifications.
Thryale9 votesso why is the lock time so long before the actual patch is released? Is it to prevent mistakes? or something more technical?
Also, slightly off topic, but could you do me a big favor and hop on over to a veigar thread please? I know riot's been working hard to show veig some love after his E nerfs, but what I'd really want to discuss is what's riot's goal for veigar as a whole. Because atm, it looks like riot really doesn't want him to be a single target burst mage anymore, as all his buffs are shifting him over to a poke mage playstyle.
RiotMeddler15 votesWe need to lock down changes a while before a patch goes out so that we've got enough time to do a bunch of testing on a stable version of the patch. Additionally it also takes some time to localize different versions of the game for the all the various regions we're patching in (translations for non english speaking regions, modified versions of some art assets for countries where we use other visual effects instead of blood on some spells etc).
RiotMeddler18 votesOh, Veigar wise I'm not familiar with the current thinking on him in terms of which exact mechanics we're changing/which parts of his playstyle we're looking to buff in the next couple of patches. Let me ping the guys working on that, get some details to pass along.
Sinister Snail4 votesOh, Veigar wise I'm not familiar with the current thinking on him in terms of which exact mechanics we're changing/which parts of his playstyle we're looking to buff in the next couple of patches. Let me ping the guys working on that, get some details to pass along.
Can I just say how glad I am that these posts exist? Like, I will lose my voice listing games that have their feedback forums as a courtesy, whose devs are 'too busy' working on the game to listen to what players actually want worked on.
Just the fact that a Rioter will wade into the muck that the gameplay balance boards can become is simply fantastic.
RiotMeddler16 votesOk, thinking behind the current changes:
Starlighte14 votesOk, thinking behind the current changes:
- We do want Veigar to remain a burst mage and feel we haven't given him sufficient reliability for that.
- Right now we're testing changes to his Q to give him better farming access so he can more consistently get to at least a moderate amount of stacked up AP to burst with.
- We are testing a range increase, 950 range is still pretty short for a skillshot on a ranged champ though. The goal there is to allow him to exist mid lane without needing to kill or be killed when farming in many match ups.
- We're not expecting this will address all of Veigar's issues - he's still a work in progress.
Why do significant changes to a champion's kit (like Veigar's or Cass's) go live after such a short time on the PBE? I get that you can only get so much data from the PBE and it will never compare to the vast amount of data that can be mined from live but... When champions go through such incredibly drastic changes such as these, shouldn't they remain on the PBE for extended amounts of time (like Sona's) to work out the kinks?
It just seems like balance is willing to Olaf some champions (for seemingly no reason) and let them sit in that state of crap balance for several months (as changes get pushed back, and back, and back) meanwhile some champions avoid the Olaf'ing for years.
Not trying to bash you up here Meddler, because you and I have had some fine discussions in the past about balance, but doesn't this seem inconsistent to you? These Veigar changes never should have made it to live as they were released, and now further changes to him are going to be delayed be several more patches until he is playable again. (Similar to Darius getting a change, but not getting the full change for 2 patches)
Keevalroy15 votesIt just seems like balance is willing to Olaf some champions (for seemingly no reason)
Not only this, but changes are enforced no matter how many people voice their concern or frustration about them.
When DFG was removed, her assassin role was completely destroyed when there was nothing wrong with it. Meanwhile LB, Kat, and Liss get to keep their playstyles as is...
Needed to be less snowbally, so you made her so clunky no one would pick her.
Do I really need to explain this?
Same situation as Akali, but he went from an AP assassin to an AD bruiser...HUH??
No one wanted her as a jungler. We said she would be unhealthy. You enforced it.
Just how many times WAS Sona nerfed in a 6 month period because she was "oppressive" and "anti-fun?"
People said he would be useless. You ignored them and gave a bunch of transparent BS reasoning to support your pro-mobility bias, then wondered why his winrate was so low. Gee I wonder.
Personal salt here: And where the hell is Revive? You didn't give any context or reason for it's removal, then Omgscuttlecrab finally says it's directly because Phantoml0rd doesn't play League anymore...when he actually does...give it back.
Blackquill4 votes She was way too mobile to be an Assassin. Seriously, LB might be able to have more mobility over time but noone uses the ult for the jump except to escape. Also: Does this hurt Ahri? She is still a very bursty mage.
She still kills everyone, even when she is behind. Players are just too lazy to adapt.
What's wrong with her?
He is an example of what Assassins should be: Guys who rely on their ult.
"Agreed" - Ezreal
"Agreed" - Ezreal
Meh...i think they are going in the right direction (more Veigar buffs in the next patch). They want him to be a long range Nasus basically. Farming until you can oneshot them. I have trust in Meddler when he said "He is still work in progress".
Personal salt here: And where the hell is Revive?
Personal question here: Who the hell misses Revive?
Keevalroy4 votesPersonal question here: Who the hell misses Revive?
Phantoml0rd has convinced me that Revive/TP is the only right way to play Karthus. I don't even want to play him anymore now that it's gone.
Blackquill3 votes2 weeks ago XiaoWeiXiao proved that there is a way to play Karthus without even dieing. 420 CS in 33 minutes.
Keevalroy1 votesGood for him? Is that supposed to change my opinion?
Blackquill2 votesPhantoml0rd has convinced me that Revive/TP is the only right way to play Karthus.
There is never only one right way to play a champion, which is proven by a lot of players.
Criomhthann2 votesRevive/TP IS the only way to Karthus.
Thryale2 votesazingy would argue smite is more useful on karthus
Solaxo4 votesOk, thinking behind the current changes:
- We do want Veigar to remain a burst mage and feel we haven't given him sufficient reliability for that.
- Right now we're testing changes to his Q to give him better farming access so he can more consistently get to at least a moderate amount of stacked up AP to burst with.
- We are testing a range increase, 950 range is still pretty short for a skillshot on a ranged champ though. The goal there is to allow him to exist mid lane without needing to kill or be killed when farming in many match ups.
- We're not expecting this will address all of Veigar's issues - he's still a work in progress.
Guys. Fix his stun. We don't care (mostly) about Q, we want his stun to be useful again
Kingsgrave3 votesOk, thinking behind the current changes:
- We do want Veigar to remain a burst mage and feel we haven't given him sufficient reliability for that.
- Right now we're testing changes to his Q to give him better farming access so he can more consistently get to at least a moderate amount of stacked up AP to burst with.
- We are testing a range increase, 950 range is still pretty short for a skillshot on a ranged champ though. The goal there is to allow him to exist mid lane without needing to kill or be killed when farming in many match ups.
- We're not expecting this will address all of Veigar's issues - he's still a work in progress.
Have you thought about giving W less of a delay and a charge system and/or giving R longer range?
Thryale1 votesI really want to want that, but I feel that if it is given to veigar, he'll just be another spell slinging poke mage instead of his iconic death combo burst mage.
Kingsgrave1 votesI really want to want that, but I feel that if it is given to veigar, he'll just be another spell slinging poke mage instead of his iconic death combo burst mage.
Well he was always the fusion of the two, so I dont really see the problem.
His Q and W are his most important spells until later when his E and R are ridiculous. I thought that was the point of his kit.
Thryale4 votesnah, veig's whole fantasy was being weak early game in exchange for being able to delete ppl late game.
The problem here is that due to the nerfs on his E (whether he needed them or not) leaves veigar unable to take the initiative. Due to that, he is incapable of turning the tables around on his own, and is now heavily dependent on his team in order to make plays.
So what do champs do when they can't take the initiative? They sit back at the edge of their spell ranges and sling spells when they come off cd. That way, they can "contribute" by either zoning or poking the enemy down so that they won't be as likely to engage on your team. This is not veig's niche, identity, or role.
Veig is about catching champs that are woefully out of position and punishing them for it with a grey screen. What happens when a LB or zed catch you out of position? You die, right? But with the unreliability in veig's E now, what happens when yer out of position near a veig? He warns you yer about to be stunned. You thank him for the warning and move on with your life.
UdoIkOSc4u21 voteshe wasn't 
Lajinn520 votesI blame Reddit. I don't know why or how, but Reddit must have had something to do with this
Crett11 votesTHAT AIN'T THE HALF OF IT THEY NERFED SION???
Thefriendlyorc6 votesThey're gonna nerf his damage now too. In addition to mana cost increase, why even level E now?
bunies1 votesThey're gonna nerf his damage now too. In addition to mana cost increase, why even level E now?
there is a reason it has always been leveled last
Rinky Dinky10 votesthere is a reason it has always been leveled first
Fixed that for ya
They don't want it being maxed first, thats why they buffed Q
Thefriendlyorc5 votesYeah I get that, but they dont need to butcher lane sion to do it. Now you'll just get shut out of lane by anyone with mobility or anyone with poke. As a singed player.. its Deja vu.
Rinky Dinky5 votesSion has never had problems against poke champions due to his W and massive built in regen.
His Q is monstrous if you can land it (Not that hard at all. People over glorify the difficulty of landing Q)
Lets be honest, does a giant, axe wielding juggernaut, who instead of smashing his enemies into the ground, prefers to go "Rawr" for the first 15 minutes of a game make sense to you? xD
If you E them, you should have more than enough time to land an at least half way charged Q. You can also make them choose between tanking a fully charged Q, and getting dat cannon minion. Most of the toplaners right neither either have a delayed dash (Liss), or no dash at all (Rumble). I see renekton, Riven, and yasuo ruining Sion's day. Dats about it honestly. Vlad possibly, but you get so tanky you can just ignore him after picking up a specters.
Thefriendlyorc5 votesHonestly I imagined him as more picking up/kicking the enemy's corpse back at the enemy champion. He's still going to be good, its just frustrating to see so many of my top lane champions get nerfed over and over for reasons. He's a tank, the shout lets him farm early when he is weak.
LeeDark3 votesHis Q is extremely difficult to land on ANY champion with mobility, which is most of them nowadays. The only reason his Q is good is that you don't have to land it to do SOMETHING with it. Cutting it off short is better than not getting anything out of it.
Let's be honest, does a tanky top laner ever survive in Riot's desired meta? xD No.
Thefriendlyorc4 votesOr getting it interrupted. Trying to lane against riven is like swatting at flies.
junglerboy161 votesJungle Sion is actually loving these changes because you always max Q in jungle first for better clear (it is too time consuming to line up a shot with E when Q hits the whole camp), and while it sucks that they are nerfing his lane power, this shouldn't hurt him too badly, it just means instead of free poke you have to do a full E-Q combo (because landing a Q on the armor debuffed target hurts a lot more since Riot buffed the AD scaling).
Thefriendlyorc3 votesYeah I know, He's better in the jungle now as weird as that sounds, but I really enjoyed him as a top laner, now you HAVE to max Q first in both because E is now gonna do sub par damage compared to a charged up Q, W shield ranking up is pitiful.
Thefriendlyorc2 votesExcept... you know, in lane, where it was good.
junglerboy162 votesYou still never max it last even when out of lane, because his W rank ups are just pathetic when it mostly scales off a flat HP ratio.
GaleWinUnleashed2 votesTop lane Sion always maxed it first. It was a cheap, effective poke with a slow attached to it. Jungle Sion might max other things first, but E was always best for laning.
junglerboy162 votesYeah, just never max W, the only thing it does is increase the mana cost and give 10 more damage. It scales almost entirely off of HP, and getting early damage from either Q or E is a much better option.
Guy Fox Teemo2 voteswell they've buffed sion for almost every patch now for a while, he didn't really get nerfed just his power was shifted from his E to his Q, which is great, a tank really shouldn't have a 300 damage long skill shot that slows you just because you hit a minon with it.
LeeDark4 votesExcept he lacks the mobility to threaten an all-in, so without poke, he loses lane.
junglerboy163 votesTo be fair (and I play a lot of Sion), he needs a little bit of a love tap like they are giving him. He is REALLY strong if you practice with him, and most people don't realize just how much damage his E does, especially considering it shreds armor and makes it very hard to dodge his Q (which together means that his Q deals a lot more damage if you E first). As long as they don't touch its utility, it will be fine and Sion will not be weak.
Additionally, Sion jungle (where I play him most) is disgustingly strong right now (I'd say stronger than Sejuani, but that's personal bias talking) because his W in combination with Cinderhulk allows him to ramp up really, REALLY fast in the jungle now, since he gets 65 bonus health for every clear now (up from 52), not counting buffs or scuttle crab or lane tax. The way they buffed his Q and nerfed his E last patch also made jungle Sion even stronger, since you max Q in jungle, not E. I wouldn't be surprised if they made his Q cost 50 or 55 mana instead of 45 after this E nerf, because he basically never goes oom in the jungle even when spamming every ability on every camp.
Sion is very good right now and the little nerf they are giving him is warranted, and I am surprised their aren't more.
That said, I'm disappointed their are no Irelia nerfs this patch, because she is also really strong in top lane and has been for a while, where Sion is only just on the fringe of competitive until recently.
OmManiPadmeHum5 votes[{quoted}](name=GayBar PornStar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEphPZuT,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-03-18T19:26:40.070+0000)
Fuck me for thinking an immobile bruiser that has been shit for more than 2 years would get a buff.
I wish Riot wouldn't tell us Darius is getting buffed, post a HEALTHY buff, then shit on our hearts by removing it.
Fuck this shit.
be thankful you aren't a 
main. Lasted a whole couple days before they started tearing her apart.
Rinky Dinky34 votesSej nerfs in a nutshell
Can you land ult? Yes? Good, there was no nerf.