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@Riot Short Question about Championdesign

SilverSquid··3 votes·464 views

Some days ago, you posted your Gameplay Values 2016 and one part stuck with me

  • Respect for old champs - In the days of yore, we’ve been bad neighbors to the old champs of LoL and cannibalized their mechanics (and often just made them stronger). These days we’re doing a good job of respecting the existing champs.

You list this one as one of your values, that you are proud of following for the last two years. But within this timeframe, you also did this.

_ (...) removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction (...)_

So if you think that removing core mechanics from a champion in order to buff them is bad, was it also bad to remove Karma's shieldbomb in order to buff her passive? It had been a core damage mechanic to her for 4 years. So, judging by your own values:

Was the removal of Karma's shieldbomb a mistake?

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9IEUgNbAe7E/0.jpg

15 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

I don't think so. It was a very weird interaction, to be honest. By clarifying what each of her mantra'd skills is for (offense, CC, defense), her kit became a lot more intuitive and fluid.

SilverSquid2 votes

Intuitive doesn't automatically mean good and weird isn't necessarily bad. It would be a lot more intuitive if Kalista wouldn't do silly hops whenever she attacks. That's weird and not intuitive too. But it makes her unique and interesting. She has a competely different way in which she needs to be mastered.

Fluid? Do you think that alternating between three different damagespells is more fluid or spamming the whole spell all game long unless in two very specific situations?

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

I'm not sure we mean the same thing by 'intuitive'. What I mean by it is that it's clear what the champion is doing and why the results were as they are. In this sense, Kalista's jumps are very intuitive; it's clear what she's doing (hopping every time she autoattacks) and the results of this are clear. Even if you've never seen Kalista before, you can understand what's going on without any trouble. Karma's shield bomb, on the other hand, isn't very intuitive. She's using defensive steroids on minions, which is chunking you. It's not clear why that's happening or what you should do about it without prior knowledge of how Karma works.

Again with 'fluid'; I define it as every skill having a distinct use case. For example, Syndra's kit is fluid because it can be used in different ways depending on what she needs; she can initiate or peel with QE, harass with QW, and burst with her ultimate. The goal of the Karma rework was to make it clearer when you should use each skill: if you want to harass, Q is your best bet, if you want to duel, W is great, and if you want to escape or chase, E is your skill. In this aspect, the Karma rework was a success.

SilverSquid1 votes

Karma uses her mantra and then her shield does damage. Why is that unintuitive? And does "intuitive" really trump "personality"?

I can see your point, I just don't think fluid is the word for it. Maybe clarity?

The goal of the Karma rework was to make it clearer when you should use each skill

Yes, but why was this a goal? Karma's mantra had always been unique, because it CHANGED what spells do. This is a thrilling game aspect that opens a lot of interesting uses for different scenarios. Karma was rewarded if she could use a spell defensively and offensively at the same time, homing in on her thematics. The little differences in when to mantra what was what you were ought to master when playing her. Making it a no-brainer makes Karma a no-brainer. And wasn't she supposed to illustrate wisdom and duality?

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

Just picking some quotes from the context posts around her rework and smaller update.

The duality of Karma's kit was great thematically, but gameplay-wise, in the words of Scarizard, "Her all-purpose abilities are so broad they never felt like the right choice in any situation. All in all, Karma lacked direction."

With the goal of making the choice you make about your ultimate matter more, Pwyff stated "We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma's abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time." Even if you decide to go RQ-spam Karma, (which I don't, usually; RW and RE are better, in my opinion), that's a choice you're making: you could fill several roles on a team, and you're picking that one. Before, you had a bunch of abilities that overlapped so much that the choices you were making weren't super impactful.

Then, back to the RE changes, Pwyff had this to say: "Quick note on removing the damage on Mantra'd W / E - a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?), so we went down that path." The damage on Karma's shield confused the use of the skill a lot, so it was removed and power was added elsewhere.

Look, the original question was 'judging by your own values, do you think the removal of the damage from Karma's RE was a mistake'? I said no, and I've explained why. If you disagree, that's fine.

SilverSquid1 votes
  • "Her all-purpose abilities are so broad they never felt like the right choice in any situation. All in all, Karma lacked direction."
  • "We also made sure Mantra empowers Karma's abilities in drastically different ways, leading to more impactful decision-making and a better feeling of accomplishment when you pull off the right move at the right time."

Both of these quotes were from her initial rework. One of the reworks that made them learn the "respect older champions" lesson from to begin with.

Even if you decide to go RQ-spam Karma, (which I don't, usually; RW and RE are better, in my opinion)

  • RE does nothing in a solo lane. Giving up the damage for the slight shieldbuff is never worth it.
  • RW is too unreliable on a squishy poke mage and solo Karma can not use the extra root in any meaningful way.
  • RQ is just superior. It's mindless, unreliable, but risk free.

Even in a duo lane this mostly holds true.

"Quick note on removing the damage on Mantra'd W / E - a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?), so we went down that path."

Finally something relevant. But even there; nobody disagrees with Rick's intentions, but with his solutions. They are not equal or interesting choices, while butchering Karma's personality. And I think we have established that this is a no-go, even and especially by Riot's point of view.

judging by your own values, do you think the removal of the damage from Karma's RE was a mistake'? I said no, and I've explained why. If you disagree, that's fine.

You have explained why YOU like the changes, but I am not even sure you even play Karma. You have also quoted Riot from 3 years ago, which was before making the mistakes that made them respect older champions now.

You have NOT shown that the removal of shieldbomb is in accordance with Riot's current gameplay values.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

Hm, I think I can resolve some of the confusion: I play almost exclusively on ARAM. Karma is one of my favorite champions, however.

Moving on. You've misinterpreted your quote (from the values article) pretty badly; it's about how many new champions' abilities are just reinterpreted or improved versions of older abilities. (Vi's ult is a better Nautilus ult, for example). It's not about how champions should keep their old mechanics; it's about how new champions shouldn't steal them. If Karma's shield bomb showed up on Jhin, the quote would be relevant, but as of now it's not.

SilverSquid1 votes

Holy moly, you are fast at answering.

Hm, I think I can resolve some of the confusion: I play almost exclusively on ARAM. Karma is one of my favorite champions, however.

I like both too. But isn't it kind of unfair to judge her in the light of a game mode they are not balancing her around? Or that only a small playerbase is using her in?

You've misinterpreted your quote (from the values article)

Why didn't you say so in the first place? I think this would've spared us some time. Assuming now it's meant the way you see it, wouldn't it then be a problem that Lulu is now doing Karma's duality theme better than her? And the utility mage in all lanes theme? Granted, Lulu has not been made in this specific time period, but it would be a problem still, wouldn't it?

And do you think making a spell a pseudo locket+talisman combo is also kind of disrespectful, as it pushes them into overlapping areas?

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

It's not a balance thing, it's a kit thing. Some kits are stronger on ARAM (Varus) or weaker (Udyr), but they don't get thematically better or worse, or more or less intuitive.

Even though Lulu's skills have both offensive and defensive uses, she executes well on her 'capricious fairy' theme: I've never once gotten a 'contemplation on duality' vibe from Lulu's kit.

About the items: "movespeed" and "shield" aren't exactly unique mechanics. I wouldn't say that Talisman is a copy of Sivir ult, either, and they're the same basic mechanic. (Sivir ult is generally used for aggressive chasing in longer teamfights, Talisman is generally used to reposition defensively).

SilverSquid1 votes

It's not a balance thing, it's a kit thing. Some kits are stronger on ARAM (Varus) or weaker (Udyr), but they don't get thematically better or worse, or more or less intuitive.

I don't think I get what you wanna say. Do you not think that champions should have interesting (and fair) laning phases in solo lanes too? Because this is something that matters differently in those two maps. Duelling, splitpushing, roaming.... but I mean, yeah, her thematic problems don't vanish in ARAM either....

Even though Lulu's skills have both offensive and defensive uses, she executes well on her 'capricious fairy' theme: I've never once gotten a 'contemplation on duality' vibe from Lulu's kit.

Karma used to have abilities that affected enemies and allies at the same time. Lulu has abilities can effect enemies or allies. Currenty Karma doesn't have any spell that affect allies or enemies.

If you haven't gotten the duality vibe from Lulu, you should get even less from Karma, which is what people are complaining about (shieldbomb was the last saving grace here).

About the items: "movespeed" and "shield" aren't exactly unique mechanics.

But shield + damage was.

I wouldn't say that Talisman is a copy of Sivir ult, either,

For one, it's not on a support. Secondly, Sivirs ultimate is just superior, as it lasts way longer. I have seen both used offensively and defensively, but due to the burst of movementspeed and longer duration Sivir's ultimate can more effectively be used for chasing.

But just imagine ADCs had an item that had the Talisman active. It would make picking Sivir a lot more redundant. Or oppressive, if not kept in check. So it necessarily always underperforms. Is this good game design? I don't think so.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

About solo lane health: Off the top of my head, I can name ten champions whose laning pattern is 'spam q until i'm out of mana or health'. Nasus, Annie, Akali, Ezreal, Karthus, Singed, Vladimir, Ziggs, Zilean, and Teemo. Having a simple laning phase isn't a bad thing.

About thematics: Why did her shield bomb give you a duality vibe? You're not choosing between offense and defense: you're choosing BOTH. The new kit lets you choose between the aspects of Karma's power: her offensive Q, her hybrid W, or her defensive E. It's just a different way to look at duality.

About game health: Essentially, the problem with kits like Karma's is that League has an UNBELIEVABLY high burden of knowledge on new players. Abilities without a clear use, interesting though they may be, only add to this burden and make the game less accessible. It's why a lot of players have problems with Illaoi's E: it's very unclear what's happening to you and what you should do about it.

And again, straw man; you're arguing against a statement that Riot never made.

SilverSquid1 votes

Nasus, Annie, Akali, Ezreal, Karthus, Singed, Vladimir, Ziggs, Zilean, and Teemo. Having a simple laning phase isn't a bad thing.

Vladimir gets reworked, Nasus plays the farming game, Akali has not much else till 6, Ezreal is interesting because it's essentially a casted AA, Karthus has a spell that replaces his AA, Singed's Q is completely unique, Ziggs has way more than just his Q, Zilean usually goes for Q-W-Q and Teemo has to poke with his AAs and can only use his blind if he gets all-in'd or can't get all-in'd.

There are so much more interesting aspects to these champions than just their Qs and even on current Karma, so I have no idea in the slightest, what you are getting at.

Why did her shield bomb give you a duality vibe? You're not choosing between offense and defense: you're choosing BOTH.

Why have people so much trouble with duality? Duality means opposites forming a whole. In this case, two opposite spell aspects in one. If a spell can be used to hurt and protect, it will only be half efficient on people who only want to hurt or only want to protect. Someone who has grasped the spell and understood the wholeness can find/create situations in which to use both.

This is a really interesting theme, and after Karma's changes has become unexplored in the league, as both Karma and her lany enemy can work around creating these situations in which she can abuse both aspects, or is even forced to only use one aspect.

Essentially, the problem with kits like Karma's is that League has an UNBELIEVABLY high burden of knowledge on new players.

The only thing that wasn't clear in her kit was the extra damage on her W, as the visual difference between W and RW was just not given. But the same problem exists with her empowered root now. Her shieldbomb was not.

EDIT: Oh and I don't think newbies get why Karma autos them so much, even though it doesn't do a lot of damage.

"Oh boy, I get hurt if I stand in the explosion." How much clearer can it get?

It's why a lot of players have problems with Illaoi's E: it's very unclear what's happening to you and what you should do about it.

Things that are clear

  • If she hits me with the thing, there is a glowy copy of me.
  • If the glowy copy gets hit, I get damage too.
  • If I leave the marked area, I get slowed and the copy vanishes.
  • If the copy dies, I get slowed too.
  • If I get slowed, I get a debuff and tentacles spawn around me, that try to hit me.

What isn't clear

  • I need to kill some tentacles to end the debuff.
  • I can hurt Illinois Illaoi to decrease the duration of the copy.

However, this operates on a comletely different level than Karma. Besides I would find it very hypocritical. If Karma removed the shieldbomb for clarity issues, and then made Illinois E, or Kindred's passive mark.

And again, straw man; you're arguing against a statement that Riot never made.

I don't think I have argued against anything (that I pretended was) from Riot in my last post. What argument are you talking about?

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

The whole point of this thread is that you believe that the removal of Karma's shield bomb goes against one of Riot's stated gameplay values: "Respect for old champs - In the days of yore, we’ve been bad neighbors to the old champs of LoL and cannibalized their mechanics (and often just made them stronger). These days we’re doing a good job of respecting the existing champs." As we've previously discussed, that value is completely irrelevant to this discussion; you're taking Riot to task over something they never said.

Duality is several opposite things forming a complete whole. Both Karma's old and new kit executed on this. In her old kit, in which offense and defense were mixed in every skill, duality was very obvious, but it wasn't well-designed from a gameplay point of view. Looking at the very concept of a shield bomb (REing a minion to harass), you're wasting exactly half of the ability. You're not trying to shield that minion because it's important to you: you're using it as a point and click Q. When a single ability mixes offense and defense in the same package, in all but the most niche cases, half of its power isn't useful.

What the comment thread is now is a debate over whether Karma's rework in general was well done. I think that it was, you think that it wasn't. It's a matter of opinion. Can we just be happy with that?

SilverSquid1 votes

The whole point of this thread is that you believe that the removal of Karma's shield bomb goes against one of Riot's stated gameplay values:

Which I quoted. Which I conceded when you mentioned it. I did not take some quote out of context to change the meaning, I even linked to it. I was convinced that this not only reflects their champion creation process, but also their rework process, which would make sense.

So I conceded once, that I missunderstood this. Why bring it up again - even though I stopped arguing for it - and accuse me of strawmanning?

When a single ability mixes offense and defense in the same package, in all but the most niche cases, half of its power isn't useful.

You do realize that using it to poke pushes the lane and wastes your most defensive spell, making you open to all-ins and ganks, right? If you waste half the ability, you are neglecting the wholeness of the spell and thus Karma's thematics and her true power. This was a stroke of genious.

I think that it was, you think that it wasn't. It's a matter of opinion. Can we just be happy with that?

Opinions are meaningless if you can't show why they are valid. As long as you give me arguments, that I can refute, I will argue against you. If you give me arguments I can accept, I will concede and eventually either broaden my horizon or assume your opinion. If you can't refute my arguments or ignore them, I will assume they are correct.

As long as I can not see why Riot misstreated Karma's thematics, I will not be happy (with her, that is).

Vanjie1 votes

It was. Now she has a mechanic that functions just like Iron Locket Solari. Riot is dumb and lazy.

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